Which is sad.
1 Like
As long as a woman is attracted to you, sheās good enough? To each his own I guess.
I mean that in as literal of a sense as I can. Itās very much a thing that occurs. The actions can go under the guise of whatever you can assume someone would think and do whoās doing that, but the intention isnāt set on just liking the partner because someone just genuinely likes someone, the intention is to manifest whatever disdain someone has towards members of their own ethnicity.
So you objected to me saying that black women have fabricated a domineering stereotype for themselves and then come back with āblack men date other races because they hate their race/want to get revenge on black womenā? So it canāt ever be black womenās fault.
Thatās an interesting take. I find one of the two takes way more likely and it is not the one where black men hate their blackness.
Youāve definitely put words in my mouth that I never said, and didnāt understand what I said. Iām making my way through the responses Iāve received since being away over the course of today.
Iād like for you to check out the articles I sent above and then get back to me. I think you have said exactly that, but Iām waiting for your response. I donāt want to get your opinion wrong.
For the record, my opinions on this stemmed from observations of black people (yes) AND from black men saying that the problem exists to me themselves. Iāve seen A LOT of black women act out. Iāve not seen many white women act out in the same manner. Even though black women are numerically fewer in the west.
Again, this was not part of this thread, but I guess it has to be discussed now.
Absolutely. Itās a part of our world as much as anything else is.
Iāll give you some personal context. I donāt know if you have children, but I have a 7 year old son. I live in a big city (Dallas, Tx). I know that heās going to grow up around homosexual relationships. Heāll have gay teachers, as I did. Heāll have gay classmates, as I did. Heāll see gay people holding hands in public places. Etc. I DONāT want him to think these are bad people, or that there is a reason not to respect their autonomy to live as they wish. I think the fact that it has a place in childrenās programming is a positive thing overall. Itās a good place for exposure, and there are conversations we can have that come from this content. If he doesnāt understand something, he asks me, and it gives me an opportunity to frame it in any way I choose, give context, explain how it relates to the world around him, etc. Weāve had many such conversations already. They go very well.
I think the idea that having gay relationships in childrenās content will āturn kids gayā is absurd. I donāt know if this is a concern YOU have, but Iāve seen this concern voiced elsewhere. There might be some merit to that argument if we started seeing gay relationships as the MAJORITY of onscreen relationships. But Iāve seen absolutely nothing to indicate this is a legitimate concern. If youāve got 1-2 gay characters in a movie with 20-30 identifiable charactersā¦ Itās reasonable.
I donāt lump ātransā and āgayā together, fwiw. They are two separate things. Oftentimes they intersect, but they are indeed different concepts. I DO think it would be very odd to see a trans character in every Disney movie, lol. But if one pops up every now and then, and it contributed positively to the story, if the context is reasonable, then Iām good with that as well.
Hope this answers your question! I donāt expect you to necessarily agree with my position, but hopefully Iāve at least been thorough with explaining where Iām coming from.
2 Likes
Have you witnessed or experienced this in some way or another? Iām just trying to understand whyā¦ its just find it odd that someone would seek out relationships outside of their race as a means of punishment for a WHOLE color of people.
I mean, you see young white girls do this to get back at their dads sometimes (if they have racial biases this would trigger), but never to get back at all white men - at least to my knowledge.
Or if this is like explaining flight to a goldfish (me being the fish) you can tell me that too lol.
1 Like
I understand your response and think youāve articulated it reasonably. I donāt agree with it. I like the idea if you being able to still frame it in your values. I donāt think this is possible in the long run but you may do it that way while it lasts.
I dont know why you seemingly often argue the point that x is not happening when you are in favor of x happening anyways. Thereās a clear trend here and even the executives said that they have a gay agenda. Just argue for the gay agenda instead of denying when you are in favor anyways, would be my advice for a productive and more honest discussion.
My concern is that children are getting exposed to alternative sexual identities and lifestyles early and with the intention of instilling values in them in spite of parental vision.
I donāt want gay children. If they turn out gay, thatās a failure on my part (Iām a firm believer that one is not born gay and I have various scientific reasons to do so) or partly bad luck. I would like for my children to have a heterosexual relationship that bears children and to have them inherit traditional gender roles. This is the best for them and for society. I donāt want them to see every sexual option as equally as good. I also donāt want them to learn very early that you can be whatever you want in spite of reality. I want them to be grounded in reality and from there on do whatever they can in accordance with nature. I donāt want my children to have ātop surgeryā meaning cutting off healthy breasts and getting mutilated by surgeons to be sterile as to oppose their biological reality. I donāt want them to be suicidal because of identity crisis at a young age.
I want them to grow up in a two parent, one mother and one father home. I want my children to hold traditional and even Christian values as I think this will make them successful and happy adults.
The point that it will make them gay is a reasonable position in my estimation as it is the goal of the ānot so secret gay agendaā to promote alternative sexual lifestyles to impressionable children. This is in my opinion done to validate the adult gender and preference-misaligned people and secondly, to equate all sexual acts with one another and therefore give children the impression that gay is not only okay, but as good and normal as heterosexual relationships.
For example (for equating all preferences), if you believe in the argument that being gay is encoded in oneās DNA and one canāt act against oneās sexual desires, then what makes a pedophile a bad person? Why for example shouldnāt a pedophile enjoy child pornography? After all, itās just an urge, as is apparently any sexual behavior, that canāt be acted against. Should pedophiles therefore walk proud with LGBā¬&@ on Christopher street day?
Equating all sexual behavior with the relationship of a man and woman that creates life, is a moral mistake and a child harming practice.
Here in Germany the ads for condoms and for dating apps are 50:50 gay:hetero now. If you think they stop at 1:30 gay:hetero with children, you are mistaken. Maybe even I could be ok with 1:30 if it is not an essential message of the movie and as you said, fits the movie (which btw Iāve never seen. It was always completely out of place and manufactured to make a point). (To be fair, in sex ads and condoms ads it makes medical and statistical sense to advocate to gays)
You donāt, but itās very clear Disney executives do. The one who made the infamous statement said that she has two children and both are non-binary and both are under 12. You think these people are reasonable, they are not, they are the most progressive of the progressive. I think thereās a huge difference between gay and trans, I think that to advocate for both is not even possible if you wanna be logically consistent. Apparently it all fits under the umbrella of expressive individualism. Iām against that. Iām against people making up ātheirā truth.
I think you may be giving them too much benefit of the doubt because you are more against my position than one gay character in a movie. If you look at their position, I donāt think you are that much closer to them than to my other extreme.
4 Likes
Yes. Iāve been accused of it as well considering my husband is white. Itās these sayings like, āIād rather date a [insert ethnicity] woman because because I canāt stand black womenā with no clear indication of why, or āI only date light skinned women because I donāt like them too darkā, āI date any other women except black women because theyāre prettierā, etc.
The disdain is coming from preconceived notions that circulate inside and outside of black communities. Itās rooted deep and goes way back.
What Iām saying, is that the focal point for someone else dating someone else more often than not is coming from a metaphorical checklist of things they donāt like that are stemmed from how they view black women. A lot of this comes from societal bigotry and stereotypes. Instead of dating someone of a different ethnicity simply because they like that person, they date because their partner of choosing fits some mold they have, that doesnāt possess those negative qualities that they associate with black and associate with women.
āGetting backā and āpunishmentā can parade around in many forms. Ostracizing, single out, stereotype, put down, vilify, etc.
The intention is what Im trying to say. The moment the intention is taken off of simply enjoying someone regardless of where they come from and the color of their skin, and instead the intention is focused on dating due to avoiding qualities that are deemed āblack womenā qualities.
Disdain, strong dislike, hate, oppose, whatever word you wanna use, use it, but it follows the same intention.
3 Likes
Thereās a lot to address here, and I appreciate your response. I will be able to respond tomorrow morning. Donāt want you think that Iām ignoring the post, but I canāt adequately respond from my phone.
1 Like
No. The men complaining about black women lack confidence.
My issue with trans and gay advocacy is a simple one. Leave the kids alone. These are not seeds best planted at a young age. We have an increasingly concerning set of outcomes presently manifesting in young people that revolves around sexual and gender identity confusion, all while social acceptance of gay and trans lifestyles is at an all-time high.
Treating the gay and trans adults in my life with respect and courtesy did not require me to be exposed to any of this stuff as a child. In fact, good old traditional conservative Catholic upbringing laid the foundation for me to treat people well across the board, even if they were upset drunk people who tried to beat me up at work. Iām not a practicing Catholic in any theological sense, but I find the framework of moral clarity, understanding others and being forgiving to be a good formula. You could even call it traditional values.
Do you look around you and see bigoted, hateful people in their 30ās, 40ās and 50ās trying to re-instate sodomy laws? Has the MTV generation somehow become more intolerant of gay lifestyles than our hippie boomer parents were in the 1960ās?
Of course not. Even Barack Obama came around on gay marriage.
Children need not be main-lined full of these ideas to become healthy adults who treat other people well. There is an increasing body of evidence that main-lining kids full of these ideas results in less healthy adults who do not treat other people well, believing that they are entitled to special treatment.
Like a 43 year-old with a penis competing in the Olympics against a field of female weightlifting competitors 15 to 20 years younger. Or countless children pursuing chemical and physical mutilation which grant special privileges at school and the workplace, where such a thing was unheard of just a few years ago.
We donāt need more awareness of this stuff at a young age. We need less. The great thing about being a parent is that youāre free to disagree and raise your children however you see fit.
5 Likes
Thank you for taking the time to spell it out for me.
Young warrior, I see you still havenāt undertaken the quest I gave you to travel to the land of West Roxbury, Massachusetts and seek out the upper middle class white women there. If you did, youād be talking about those crazy bitches and not majestic specimens of Florida Woman.
As someone who has also lived in the NYC metro area, the Philadelphia Metro area and the Chicago Metro area I can say this. Taken as a whole, I prefer the company of my local trailer park kings and queens of all races, colors and creeds to the company of upper-middle class white liberal women.
4 Likes
It probably is. But again, this is such an overgeneralized statement, and one that is hurtful.
Youāve also probably never heard any other negative sayings from white people who see other white people dating black people. But believe me they say them. āWhy isnāt he dating someone of his own race?ā, āWow heās a dating a black womanā, āHeās probably got jungle fever, heāll settle down with his own kind eventually itās just a phaseā, etc. No, not all white people say that. By and large most white people anywhere wouldnāt even think to say something that hurtful. But it still exists and thereās many that do.
Do black people say some downright hurtful stuff like that? They absolutely do, but thatās not the point Iām trying to make.
They arenāt saying exactly this:
But they donāt have to, because the intent still circles around preconceived notions about interracial dating, and specifically black women, since weāre talking about the vice versa of black and white communities dating one another. Iām saying the problem is that you likened such a general issue to a VERY specific ethnicity of people. As if women from other ethnicities donāt say either the exact same thing, or things very similar. Because they do.
Thatās fine and dandy, but you likened it to this:
And what for? Why?
Thatās why I said thereās a SLEW of issues wrong with that statement.
That is almost verbatim what I said:
Again we are saying pretty much the same thing here. And within those cultures people inflate things with other things.
It does not, and yes they do. Just differently.
But the means of doing it still fall under an overarching theme. Nearly all ethnicities who have problems with other members of the same ethnicities dating different people from other ethnicities say these things. The frequency of it will vary, and among women, if internalized deeply enough, they will attach familiar skin color to their sense of relationship. Men do it too.
That original statement you made falls deeply into racial issues in the United States. It may not be what the thread is about, but again, why even use that statement? Why liken it to what you were originally saying? I understand that this thread in particular is focused on Disney, but the only thing keeping me personally from making a thread where these issues can be discussed is 1. Thereās honestly not enough members here who care to discuss it, 2. It gets ignored 3. It leads to nasty arguments 4. Thereās not a lot of black people on this forum, let alone black women on this forum who could contribute to these kinds of discussions in a positive way.
Iāve also read the links you posted, and thereās points that I agree with, but they arenāt addressing what I am specifically trying to convey to you.
Not to mention that one article ONLY studied 43 (I think?) men, ONLY in Georgia. What about the men who live literally anywhere else in the US? What about a much larger sample? I do not completely disagree with the study, and Iām not saying itās wrong, but I am saying a larger population should be included, as far as this discussion is concerned.
That is a very overgeneralized statement you made, and you are looking at ONLY the instances that pertain to black women. I also think it does nothing but perpetuate stereotypes. Thereās problems everywhere, thereās problems on both sides, but why keep it going?
And again, given the circumstance, given history, given the fact that youāre from a completely different country with a completely different history, Iām saying, again, itās hurtful seeing such an overgeneralized statement made constantly and made to the point where people who donāt even reside in the US go off of what they hear, see, studies that only capture a piece of the overall issues, etc.
Am I saying go make hundreds of black friends? No. Iām saying seek to understand. Thatās the only true way I see anything progressing as far as topics/issues like these are concerned.
It might not be said constantly here, but it is said elsewhere, and it helps nothing. If Iām not addressing it here (this being the only time Iāve ever seen anyone say that here), believe me I address it wherever this statement shows up.
If you disagree still that is fine. Im more than certain youāre still going to, and I will leave it as this, but I figure itās best I dismiss myself because I donāt think this is a statement that you understand is still flat out not okay to say to describe something that doesnāt even pertain to it IN THAT SENSE. Thereās nothing stopping you from saying what you want, that I understand, but still.
1 Like
That was a SAMA reference. Massive entire thread on that test. Good luck with the Wayback machine on finding that,
1 Like
I know this wasnāt directed at me, but thereās a lot in here that I either feel strongly over or am curious about, so I hope you donāt mind if I enter the fray.
A disclaimer-of-sorts regarding my bias is probably warranted here: Iām gay. God knows why I choose to participate in these threads, haha.
Why do you think it isnāt? Pedophilia, the preference which you equate it to, is immoral because acting upon it requires the participation of someone who cannot consent. I donāt see a parallel to this in homosexuality. I really donāt feel that the two are comparable whatsoever. One inherently requires a power imbalance which precludes it from the potential of being a healthy relationship, while the other is subject to all of the same principals that would govern any other relationship - both participants just happen to be of the same gender.
You mention the idea of ācreating lifeā twice in your response, so Iām assuming this concept is pretty central to your idea of what makes a heterosexual relationship something sacred. Frankly, I donāt think this is unique to heterosexual relationships. IVF exists. Surrogacy exists. Sperm donation exists. Emerging medical techniques make an XY individual altogether unnecessary to the process of fertilization. Even adoption deserves a mention (and is arguably a more selfless act than any other path towards parenthood - itās what I intend to do if I ever decide to become a father).
I think that understanding why youāre opposed to homosexuality in the first place would be a helpful starting point for understanding the rest of your argument, although for obvious reasons Iād be inclined to disagree.
I think that the fact that these are advertisements, rather than consumer media, makes the point less salient. Someone sat in an office with a calculator, and figured out that his company would bring in more money if they stuck two men on a billboard as opposed to a man and a woman. I donāt think any agenda is at play here beyond simple economics.
If it were possible to make a straight person gay, than wouldnāt the opposite be possible, too?
Why hasnāt conversion therapy ever worked?
I tend to believe that most of the time that queer children/adolescents attempt or commit suicide, itās because a lack of a support system rather than some internal ācrisis.ā The piece of evidence which I like to refer to in regards to this is that ālesbian, gay, and bisexual young adults who reported higher levels of family rejection during adolescence were 8.4 times more likely to report having attempted suicide, 5.9 times more likely to report high levels of depression, 3.4 times more likely to use illegal drugs, and 3.4 times more likely to report having engaged in unprotected sexual intercourse compared with peers from families that reported no or low levels of family rejectionā (Family rejection as a predictor of negative health outcomes in white and Latino lesbian, gay, and bisexual young adults - PubMed)
At the risk of sounding harsh, your belief that a gay child would be āa failure on [your] partā or ābad luckā would be far more likely to make the kid kill themselves than the kid being gay to begin with. And in all honesty, that line was what prompted me to bother writing this whole reply, because it reminds me of stuff that Iāve heard from my own family. Being called a faggot by people who are supposed to be a source of unconditional support is - unsurprisingly - a shitty experience. I hope you donāt end up with a gay kid - more for the hypothetical kidās sake than your own - but in the event that you do, and you keep that attitude, theyāll either grow up to hate you or youāll get to bury them.
This is well into the territory of ranting by this point, but I guess the key question here is:
Whatās wrong with my intended life-path of going to college, becoming a surgeon, marrying a man, and adopting children? Why is this something that society at large needs to be shielded from? Why not put it in a movie?
Sorry @flipcollar for butting ahead of you to reply to this.
5 Likes
What if the stereotypes exist because of truth?
Similar to how (example) feminists would argue women go into certain work fields due to āsociety pushing certain roles for certain gendersā, you seem to be blaming society for peopleās perception and not thinking that perhaps the reason black women are viewed a certain way is because they do in fact act a certain way (not all of course).
The thing is there are black people all over the world so. I donāt live in the US, I live in London and was raised in a multi cultural environment and I have seen the behavior associated with black women that @lordgains mentioned and the āHe canāt handle a real womenā mentioned for black men dating white girls, for white men not being interested in them etc.
Is that due to racial issues in the US as well?
Does the fact I donāt live in the US mean the behavior I have seen first hand is irrelevant?
1 Like
Similarly I hope you donāt mind if I enter the fray either.
First of all thanks for contributing in the convo and being open to a potentially hostile environment
Disclaimer: I am straight, I have no strong opinions on homosexuality either way and I also have/ support a theory about sexuality which is that we are all born with a āpre-set sexualityā of bisexual (hence why regardless of our sexuality we can identify people as attractive of both genders eve if we are not attracted to them) and we subconsciously pick our sexuality at a very young age.
Feel free to not answer this. But may I ask when did you first realise you were gay?
The reason I ask is that in my experience of the gay people I know and met (there are a lot) they realised at an age before puberty and before most heterosexual boys were really into girls.
You hear a lot of āI knew I was different when I was younger and I just knewā referring to an age where most boys were less focused about girls and more focused on Pokemon
This is a very valid point and I donāt think it is possible to make a straight person gay, or a gay person straight. For adults you can only pretend to not be what you are in my opinion.
With kids however I think itās less of a making a straight person gay or vice versa but more of a influencing the child one way or another before he/she has reached the age where their sexual preferences comes to light (again going on the theory mentioned above).
I am of the opinion that the more we normalize alternate sexualities for children to see, the more children who feel like they donāt fit in will gravitate to those sexualities (if that makes sense).
Again the opinion/ theory on sexuality may not be something you agree with but just wanted to chime in with my 2c
3 Likes