Discussion About Ramping/Flat Pyramids

slick123456 · July 12, 2009, 9:32pm

[quote]DH wrote:
I’m not getting that Slick is an idiot or being contentious, guys. He is seeing something for the first time.

When a person flips open a mag, sees that Lee Priest says to do 20 total sets for your biceps spread over 4-5 exercises using a weight that keeps you between 8-12 reps, one of two things happens…

The guy is a newb and goes to the gym and busts a nut on every set. He gets tired, then sick, then discouraged, then quits. Figures he doesn’t have what it takes. An honest attempt buy an uninformed person. Some might even say, negligently uninformed by the powers that be.
The guy has some experience, thinks that volume is insane, and then lumps all pros into the “genetic mutant/drugs” category and consequently writes them off as a valid source of information whatsoever. He start reading Brawn and thinks Stuart McRober and/or Aruthur Jones is the Messiah.

Either way, a simple qualifying sentence (that not all sets are maximal effort and load) that was left out of the article, prevents alot of people from ever understanding how all of this REALLY works.

For example, Scott Abel, probably the most well known trainer (along with Charles Glass) known in the bodybuilding world will have you do 18-22 sets per bodypart, each one to failure, each one with a load that keeps you in the repetition zone for that move. Ramping is neither stated nor implied. Because Scott, who has 3 decades of pro experience, doesn’t want you doing ramps. He wants stright sets all with max effort, all in the required rep range. If ramping is so widespread (and I’m not saying it is or is not here) then one would think that would be stated by a guy who has trained over 300 contest winners…

Poliquin works with pros such as Sarcev and others. He never uses ramps beyond a basic warmup. Everything else is balls out training for the rep range given. About 10-15 straight sets oftentimes.

So Slick isn’t arguing the merits of ramping here. He is verbalizing a newfound understanding AND verbalizing his surpirse that such a simple concept isn’t mentioned in the vast majority of books and mags.

Yates’ training stood out for a reason. He did a modified HIT scheme with ramps. This was against the norm.

So to tell someone to just “go f***ing do it, dude” is missing the point.

Slick isn’t wanting to argue the merit of ramps, and he isn’t asking how to do them (so he can be gang-banged by everybody who has talked about this recently).

He is saying that it is odd and frustrating that this simple concept. This powerful strength building and recovery assisting techinque is in fact what is one of the best ways to get bigger and stronger.

I see his point, again becasue I don’t buy mags or videos. I don’t train with Jay or Dennis or anybody else. I’m in rural midwestern America. No pros for miles and miles… And I don’t waste money on advertorial media such as mags.

You know what they say about assumption… it makes an ass outa you and me. You because you were in the position of dispensing information (authors, articles)in a professional sense, and me because I’m spinning my wheels (because you left out one VERY important qualifying statement on HOW to train).

I too assumed that when I read sets, that those were all working sets. Warmps werent’ even counted toward this total. And many even state this as such.

Without breaking my arm to pat myself on the back, I know what Im doing when it comes to this. I’ve achieved what many younger guys are currnetly working toward. so to lump slick into the beligerent or idiotic categories is in itself, stupid.

DH

ANYWAY: All the best, Slick. Keep on learning. Todays dogma is tomorrow’s dung…nowhere else is that more true than in BB.

Ducket wrote:
Guy, go to the fucking gym and try it out.

[/quote]

Thanks DH!! Its really good to see that someone has finally understood completely what i am on about, and some support on what i said thankyou.

D_Public · July 13, 2009, 2:39am

I just found this dvd of Dennis Wolf training…i never seen it before, so i thought i would post it here…

slick123456 · July 12, 2009, 11:46pm

You see another reason why I would get confused was once (4-5 years ago) I was reading an article on how Jay Cutler trains, in the article it stated he said he was using the high volume high intensity approach, now isnt TRUE High Volume lots of sets each one using effort, old school Arnold style?? There was no apsolutly nothing mentioning working upto the heaviest set or ramping, infact it mentioned using a heavy enough weight to complete 8-10 Reps for 3 sets then going all out to failure on the 4th - I would sure interprete that as straight sets and only go to failure on the last.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KFY/is_10_22/ai_n7581387/ - Read the last question on the page…

So infact the routine was nothing but High Volume if ramping was the case (As seen in the videos) this would bring it to low volume because in my opinion you cant perform a bunch of progressivly heavier warmups and 1 heavy set and call that high volume. Right??

Here a few of the videos I found where they arn’t ramping lol

Dennis Wolf appears to be performing Straight Sets here

- YouTube <<< Skip to 3:40 Flat Bench DB Presses

Marcus Ruhl Phyramiding from high reps down to lower reps

Lee Priest performing straight sets - after performing 3 progressivly heavier sets of bench presses, 4:15

He then moves on the db bench presses and performs straight sets

Now later on someone will probs find a video, and say well here they are ramping lol? well is it possible that these guys simply train DIFFERENTLY for the cameras ??? it could be staged who knows, if the training articles out there are most likely BS whats stopping the videos from being BS… Thats exactly why ive come on here to try and find out an honest opinion instead of reading BS articles from money making supplement companies and ghost writers.

slick123456 · July 12, 2009, 11:48pm

You see another reason why I would get confused was once (4-5 years ago) I was reading an article on how Jay Cutler trains, in the article it stated he said he was using the high volume high intensity approach, now isnt TRUE High Volume lots of sets each one using effort, old school Arnold style?? There was no apsolutly nothing mentioning working upto the heaviest set or ramping, infact it mentioned using a heavy enough weight to complete 8-10 Reps for 3 sets then going all out to failure on the 4th - I would sure interprete that as straight sets and only go to failure on the last.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KFY/is_10_22/ai_n7581387/ - Read the last question on the page…

So infact the routine was nothing but High Volume if ramping was the case (As seen in the videos) this would bring it to low volume because in my opinion you cant perform a bunch of progressivly heavier warmups and 1 heavy set and call that high volume. Right??

Here a few of the videos I found where they arn’t ramping lol

Dennis Wolf appears to be performing Straight Sets here

- YouTube <<< Skip to 3:40 Flat Bench DB Presses

Marcus Ruhl Phyramiding from high reps down to lower reps

Lee Priest performing straight sets - after performing 3 progressivly heavier sets of bench presses, 4:15

He then moves on the db bench presses and performs straight sets

Now later on someone will probs find a video, and say well here they are ramping lol? well is it possible that these guys simply train DIFFERENTLY for the cameras ??? it could be staged who knows, if the training articles out there are most likely BS whats stopping the videos from being BS… Thats exactly why ive come on here to try and find out an honest opinion instead of reading BS articles from money making supplement companies and ghost writers.

BantamRunner · July 13, 2009, 8:00pm

You can not train more than your ability to recover.

300lbs of stress on the muscle is 300lbs of stress on the muscle…which is greater than 200, which is greater than 100lb.

I’m pretty new to this game. When I started I was deadlifted 135 for reps and squating 135 for reps. I could walk up without any warmup and just rep it out. Had no ill effects. Now that I am stronger, I’m squating 195-195 for reps and deadlifting 250-275 for reps, I need to start out with 95, 135, etc before hitting that last set or two. I notice if I ramp in this way my last set is much better than if I just jump in.

What’s the point in lifting say 200lbs for 10 reps when by the 3rd or 4th set you’re probably only hitting 7 or 8 reps? Instead by ramping up, say 95, 135, 185…then by that last set you may push up 205 for 10 instead of the 200 you were aiming for.

It’s about a balance between accumulation of fatigue and CNS potentiation. If you’re doing 4 sets of 10 at 200 without ramping that first set will be terrible, then the second set easier…you’ve awakened the muscle fibers. By the same they are firing and ready to go you’re already overfatigued.

I didn’t read a book or need someone to explain it to me step by step. I’ve been in the gym 4-6 days a week lifting my fucking ass off since November and put on 20lbs of lean mass and doubled my squat. Things just sort of come along. As the weight gets heavier the need to ‘ramp’ becomes more apparent.

Bill_Roberts · July 13, 2009, 9:23pm

[quote]slick123456 wrote:

So infact the routine was nothing but High Volume if ramping was the case (As seen in the videos) this would bring it to low volume because in my opinion you cant perform a bunch of progressivly heavier warmups and 1 heavy set and call that high volume. Right??[/quote]

I think you are getting hung up on words or phrases which have no standard definition anyway.

And secondly I think you are not looking at volume correctly.

To leave it pretty much up to chance, I decided to grab whatever the first thing was on Levrone’s log that was same reps each set. Turns out it was:

Reverse Pull Downs :
180 lbs x 6, 190 lbs x 6, 200 lbs x 6, 210 lbs x 6 reps.

The total work done is 180x6 + 190x6 + 200x6 + 210x6 or 4680 rep pounds.

Now on a belief that only the last set counts, coz after all the other ones must have had gas left in the tank, the last set alone is only 1260 rep pounds. So if he had been able to do that right off the bat, which he probably could have as this was his second exercise, 1260 rep pounds is all he would have done. But he chose to do a total amount of work much more than this. Roughly 4 times more work, in the literal sense of weight lifted through distance.

A belief that if there’s ramping then the volume is low is not correct.

Or another example would be to read the Wendler 5/3/1 article presently featured on the front page. Wendler has the exercises ramped, 3 sets. He states plainly that results aren’t as good if the ramp sets are omitted, even if one is able to do the top weight set without the ramp.

All those reps done at still substantial weight add up to a lot of volume.

slick123456 · July 13, 2009, 11:03pm

Yeh cheers guys, so lots of ramped sets is still high volume, it makes sense when you explain it through the total work done cheers Bill.

DH1 · July 13, 2009, 11:04pm

True, Bill. I wave load often and look only at total work performed and look to best that in a particular time frame. The energetic theory of muscle growth doesnt’ require that workload be only referenced in relation to load but rather workload (given of course sufficient load and speed).

What is very significant is that most of the time the average guy looking to understand all of this just takes those 16+ sets of chest that Jay did in the youtube link above and thinks he goes all out on each one.

So while it seems a game of semantics, it is a serious game indeed. Yates might ramp up over 4 sets to his max load for that day on two different moves. Thus providing 8 sets. Then a magazine article or an author referencing Yates might state that Dorian “warms up” and does one all out set on only 2 moves. It is in fact often presented as such.

Now anyone familiar with powerlifting will know that if you are using at least a 40-50% max load and using CAT, then the HTMU’s have been recruited and even fatigued to an appreciable degree by the end of a few sets. But the mags and authors give the impression that each set is an all out repetition maximum which actually lowers total tonnage lifted and potentially overstimualtes the CNS.

The devil is in the details.

slick123456 · July 14, 2009, 4:54am

Could any of you name some IFBB Bodybuilders that you know dont Ramp??

Cheers guys

BSC819 · July 14, 2009, 1:49pm

[quote]That One Guy wrote:
Why the fuck do people need an article for this most basic shit. That’s what happens when you get all your information from a website and never try anything out in the gym. The first time I heard about ramping, it only took one post from C_C (not even one of the long, intricate ones) then I got the basic concept and TRIED IT OUT IN THE GYM MYSELF.

jeez. [/quote]

Next great topic: loading the weight on the bar
How do i do this? I hear alot of the IFBB pros are using this method but I have been looking for articles and cant find any info on it. I mean I just pick the weights up and just bang it on the bar, it just wont go on. I am really getting tired of using dumbells all of the time and wonder if you guys can give me some help.

Lorisco · July 14, 2009, 2:06pm

[quote]slick123456 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
slick123456 wrote:
So the moral of the story is that if for example you look at a pros routine and they do 20 sets for example not all sets are created equal, as they may drop set on some exercises like Jay Cutler, Phyramid right up like Ruhl or simply perform straight sets like Troy Alves or Evan Centopani or like the others Flat Phyramid/Ramp, or whatever they refer to it as.

Dude, some of those guys at the upper levels don’t even count sets. It is only the newbs making this extra complicated because they are trying to rationalize all of this without actually getting in a gym and lifting.

This was common knowledge when people actually had to go to the fucking gym and watch big people lift in order to learn how to do so.

You are screwing yourself.

Yeh i def see where your coming from lol I feel the main prob is sometimes theirs so much bull and contradicting info out their when you just wanna find some info to get going you end up going the analysis to paralasis route u know[/quote]

What everyone is not telling you is that you should not be looking to train like the Pro’s anyway. They have been training for years, are on roids, are injecting growth hormone, and are at an entirely different level than you are.

So listen to their advice but do not follow their routine. Advanced routines are for advanced BB’s.

Anonymas · July 14, 2009, 6:57pm

DH you seem to be a decent guy with head screwed on right.

I have noticed too upon watching training vids etc that the pros dont always ramp everything. They do do some straight sets, and they also do ramped sets but in very small increments, all in addition to ramped sets talked about here.

If you take a look at Levrones blog (www.levronereport.com) in his transformation, theres a lot of straight sets in there as well as ramping. So I dont think its a case of ramp or straight, most will probably utilise both.

I agree with the points about Yates, he ramped everything, up to 1 all out set and he stated many times that this was not the same way his competitors trained, they would spend much longer in the gym.

Cephalic_Carnage · July 14, 2009, 8:08pm

You guys are making my brain explode here.

Btw, the way Levrone trains now is different from how he used to train… He has muscle memory on his side, he can do whatever the hell he wants and will still get stronger.

If you want to know how he trained during his competition days, watch M3.

Anyway… To confuse you all a little more:

Ronnie seems to be using somewhat different approaches for DB’s and BB’s respectively. Both ramped, but:

When using DB’s (let’s take seated shoulder presses/high incline OHP here) he’ll do a light warm-up (or not) and then 3 ramped “work” sets which are fairly close together in weight:

-Seated DB overhead presses (high incline ohp, really)
70’s x 12
140’s x 12
150’s x 8
160’s x 6

-Flat BB Bench Presses
Yet when doing bar work, he’ll go up in even increments for all sets (a plate per side on all bench pressing type movements, for example)

135 x 12
225 x 12
315 x 12
405 x 10
495 x 6-8 (don’t remember the exact number he did, but whatever)

No idea why he keeps his work set weights closer together on DB work there vs. bb… I’m sure you’re all very eager to discuss it though

May very well be a simple matter of convenience when doing bar-work… Whatever.

slick123456 · July 14, 2009, 10:06pm

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
You guys are making my brain explode here.

Btw, the way Levrone trains now is different from how he used to train… He has muscle memory on his side, he can do whatever the hell he wants and will still get stronger.

If you want to know how he trained during his competition days, watch M3.

Anyway… To confuse you all a little more:

Ronnie seems to be using somewhat different approaches for DB’s and BB’s respectively. Both ramped, but:

When using DB’s (let’s take seated shoulder presses/high incline OHP here) he’ll do a light warm-up (or not) and then 3 ramped “work” sets which are fairly close together in weight:

-Seated DB overhead presses (high incline ohp, really)
70’s x 12
140’s x 12
150’s x 8
160’s x 6

-Flat BB Bench Presses
Yet when doing bar work, he’ll go up in even increments for all sets (a plate per side on all bench pressing type movements, for example)

135 x 12
225 x 12
315 x 12
405 x 10
495 x 6-8 (don’t remember the exact number he did, but whatever)

No idea why he keeps his work set weights closer together on DB work there vs. bb… I’m sure you’re all very eager to discuss it though

May very well be a simple matter of convenience when doing bar-work… Whatever.
[/quote]

Yeh good observation CC I also noticed that too when watching his video, I guess at the end of the day its what works best with him, if the weight on the db work is close together and the reps go down is that very indeed pure Phyramiding?? Ive noticed this with other Bodybuilders on their videos too. Ive dedicated a lot of time lately and studied this whole issue in detail and my opinion based on what ive learnt (I MIGHT BE WRONG LOL) is all pros either ramp up or use straight sets or both and may use either methods at different times which would explain why on some videos they purely ramp and on others they bang out straight sets.

Another thing ive learnt is that many people interprete training jargon in different ways, so a straight set to one bodybuilder may be slightly differnt to another bodybuilders idea. Same I believe with Ramping as some may simply refer to them as Progressivly Heavier Sets, Flat Phyramiding, Working Up, some even call it Phyramiding even though its not technically correct. Then when the training routines of these guys are printed (if their true) only the sets and reps are written, and thats why when looking at them you have to take into account that not all sets are equal in intensity or weight.

Thats just my idea…

D_Public · July 14, 2009, 10:13pm

it probably is about convenience…that’s my logic exactly actually

i actually think priest didn’t add weight because he felt 405 would be too much on the next set so he just stayed at 315…

when i made the realization that it really doesn’t matter what you do as long you hit everything hard and aim to progress…you will make progress…

just lift some weights and find out what works for you…not everyone trains the same…

IronDude17 · July 14, 2009, 10:21pm

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Ronnie seems to be using somewhat different approaches for DB’s and BB’s respectively. Both ramped, but:

When using DB’s (let’s take seated shoulder presses/high incline OHP here) he’ll do a light warm-up (or not) and then 3 ramped “work” sets which are fairly close together in weight:

-Seated DB overhead presses (high incline ohp, really)
70’s x 12
140’s x 12
150’s x 8
160’s x 6

-Flat BB Bench Presses
Yet when doing bar work, he’ll go up in even increments for all sets (a plate per side on all bench pressing type movements, for example)

135 x 12
225 x 12
315 x 12
405 x 10
495 x 6-8 (don’t remember the exact number he did, but whatever)

No idea why he keeps his work set weights closer together on DB work there vs. bb… I’m sure you’re all very eager to discuss it though

May very well be a simple matter of convenience when doing bar-work… Whatever.
[/quote]

Thanks for pointing that out. I never seemed to notice that. My guess is that since the shoulder is such an important part not to get injured, it would increase the risk if he did 70’s, 120’s, then 160’s. But after thinking about my DB work for a second, it only makes sense the increases are small. For example, on bench I go up about 20 lbs/hand at a time which is certainly not close to the increase on BB bench. For example today I did 30’s, 60’s, 80’s, 100’s, then 120’s.

slick123456 · July 14, 2009, 10:23pm

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
You guys are making my brain explode here.

Btw, the way Levrone trains now is different from how he used to train… He has muscle memory on his side, he can do whatever the hell he wants and will still get stronger.

If you want to know how he trained during his competition days, watch M3.

Anyway… To confuse you all a little more:

Ronnie seems to be using somewhat different approaches for DB’s and BB’s respectively. Both ramped, but:

When using DB’s (let’s take seated shoulder presses/high incline OHP here) he’ll do a light warm-up (or not) and then 3 ramped “work” sets which are fairly close together in weight:

-Seated DB overhead presses (high incline ohp, really)
70’s x 12
140’s x 12
150’s x 8
160’s x 6

-Flat BB Bench Presses
Yet when doing bar work, he’ll go up in even increments for all sets (a plate per side on all bench pressing type movements, for example)

135 x 12
225 x 12
315 x 12
405 x 10
495 x 6-8 (don’t remember the exact number he did, but whatever)

No idea why he keeps his work set weights closer together on DB work there vs. bb… I’m sure you’re all very eager to discuss it though

May very well be a simple matter of convenience when doing bar-work… Whatever.
[/quote]

Yeh good observation CC I also noticed that too when watching his video, I guess at the end of the day its what works best with him, if the weight on the db work is close together and the reps go down is that very indeed pure Phyramiding?? Ive noticed this with other Bodybuilders on their videos too. Ive dedicated a lot of time lately and studied this whole issue in detail and my opinion based on what ive learnt (I MIGHT BE WRONG LOL) is all pros either ramp up or use straight sets or both and may use either methods at different times which would explain why on some videos they purely ramp and on others they bang out straight sets. Another thing ive learnt is that many people interprete training jargon in different ways, so a straight set to one bodybuilder may be slightly differnt to another bodybuilders idea. Same I believe with Ramping as some may simply refer to them as Progressivly Heavier Sets, Flat Phyramiding, Working Up, some even call it Phyramiding even though its not technically correct. Then when the training routines of these guys are printed (if their true) only the sets and reps are written, and thats why when looking at them you have to take into account that not all sets are equal in intensity or weight.

Thats just my idea…

Sentoguy · July 15, 2009, 1:55am

You also have to look at when during the training cycle the videos are taken.

Some pros like Ronnie and Dorian continued pushing the envelope and trying to get stronger right up until maybe a week or two before a competition. Other guys like to back off on the heavy training, up their reps, and basically alter their method of training so as not to risk injuring themselves.

I suspect that the vast majority use(d) ramping during the offseason when they are aggressively pursuing muscle/strength though and that some switch to using more straight sets when preparing for a show.

Also, look at when in the workout we are talking about. Most pros will use ramping on the first big money exercise and then might not feel the need to warm-up as much on the rest of the exercises for that muscle group. Or, they might do a couple “finisher” type movements to simply pump as much blood into the muscle as possible (which straight setting can be quite good for). So for subsequent exercises they might use more of a straight setted approach.

So, you’re right, it’s not an “either/or” matter. But, if you’re after big time muscular gains then you need to have big time strength gains. And ramp sets are superior to straight sets in that regard. If all you’re after is a pump, then I actually think that straight sets can be just as good (if not possibly better).

Cephalic_Carnage · July 15, 2009, 2:10pm

[quote]slick123456 wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
You guys are making my brain explode here.