Discussion About Ramping/Flat Pyramids

Training Bodybuilding
41

Let me throw this out. I have trained for 15 years. I’ve bought about 3 bodybuilding magazines in that entire time. My first ever was MM2K with Aaron Baker on the cover as I recall.

Now considering that I’ve trained for as long as I have, and that I’ve gained 100+ pounds over that time frame, its probably quite a shock to some of you other guys that I NEVER realized that pros ramp “per se” in such a fashion. I warm up on the fist move in a ramping fashion, but that’s it. I call(ed) it warming up.

I trained and worked at a the only gym in town, and the only decent sized guys were on steroids, lived at the bench press, had SHW PL guts, and consequently one blew his pec. I actually saw and heard this while he was decline benching on the Smith Machine. Friday night and only three of us were in the gym. Lucky for him he wasn’t alone. The old lady working the front desk couldn’t hardly open the door let alone help get him unpinned.

Anyway, to put this into perspective, some people dont buy magazines or videos of the pros. And some of us live in very rural areas away from big name gyms. And quite obviously some of us arent 150lb newbs benching one wheel.

It is for this reason, that I find it interesting that folks like X and CC work up to a single work set per movement. This is exactly how Yates trained and he called it low volume.

So, following the logic of how pros ramp each exercise to a top set a la Yates, and Yates was considered a “low volume” guy, then it stands to reason that without the experience of the mags and vids one would assume that the pros do indeed use straight sets for their 20 sets.

I also believe that, because those of us out of the “loop” take the workout as printed at face value, then it begins to make sense how so many people claim that the volume used by the pros is ridiculous.

For example, X is using more volume than CC. But in effect, X is getting maybe four or five “working” sets at top weight for each move (if I understand correctly) even though on paper someone might say that he is doing 3-5 moves with 3-5 sets each. This looks like a high volume workout of 15-20 sets or so. In reality, its much more of a Yates “low volume” workout. Yates only counted 1 or 2 sets for maybe 2 moves per bodypart. It seems that more pros than we’ve all assumed, use Dorian’s training style after all.?.

This, I think (at least from my perspective) is the genesis of the confusion for many, and the frustration by some of the vets with more exposure to magazines, videos and lifters.

DH

42

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
slick123456 wrote:
Ok all these years ive simply trained in a straight set format, after reading here how most pro’s simply Ramp to a heavy set on each exercise has made me think. Ive kind of got confused because when watching videos of these guys train they do RAMP up each set to a max set. But how come they never mention that they “RAMP” up to a max set, for example when looking at articles on their routines they make out they are doing 20 all out sets. What i find stange is the pros obviously do this coz it works well but its strange because i have not found another site talking about ramping except here. Yet the pros train like this in their videos?? its strange lol

Good observation. Read books and articles from most pro bodybuilders and they will indicate that they use straight sets in training. Yet, get a video camera on them and all of a sudden they are ramping to max load.

To me what this means is that for the camera they are showing off and want to lift as much as possible, but the reality of their day-to-day training is that they use straight sets.

Ronnie mentions ramping in his book…

The reason most don’t is the same reason that CT rarely if ever mentioned it… They assume everyone in bodybuilding knows about it.

Watch them train in the gym and they train the same as in their vids, the only difference may be that, say, Ronnie doesn’t always go all the way to a heavy double in the squat or deadlift. He’ll stop at 4 sets or so.

There are exceptions like Evan Centopani, but they are few and far in-between the pro ranks.

Haven’t we discussed this before…

[/quote]

Yes, I think we have.

I don’t have anything against ramping, it just isn’t for everyone

43

[quote]DH wrote:
Let me throw this out. I have trained for 15 years. I’ve bought about 3 bodybuilding magazines in that entire time. My first ever was MM2K with Aaron Baker on the cover as I recall.

Now considering that I’ve trained for as long as I have, and that I’ve gained 100+ pounds over that time frame, its probably quite a shock to some of you other guys that I NEVER realized that pros ramp “per se” in such a fashion. I warm up on the fist move in a ramping fashion, but that’s it. I call(ed) it warming up.

I trained and worked at a the only gym in town, and the only decent sized guys were on steroids, lived at the bench press, had SHW PL guts, and consequently one blew his pec. I actually saw and heard this while he was decline benching on the Smith Machine. Friday night and only three of us were in the gym. Lucky for him he wasn’t alone. The old lady working the front desk couldn’t hardly open the door let alone help get him unpinned.

Anyway, to put this into perspective, some people dont buy magazines or videos of the pros. And some of us live in very rural areas away from big name gyms. And quite obviously some of us arent 150lb newbs benching one wheel.

It is for this reason, that I find it interesting that folks like X and CC work up to a single work set per movement. This is exactly how Yates trained and he called it low volume.

So, following the logic of how pros ramp each exercise to a top set a la Yates, and Yates was considered a “low volume” guy, then it stands to reason that without the experience of the mags and vids one would assume that the pros do indeed use straight sets for their 20 sets.

I also believe that, because those of us out of the “loop” take the workout as printed at face value, then it begins to make sense how so many people claim that the volume used by the pros is ridiculous.

For example, X is using more volume than CC. But in effect, X is getting maybe four or five “working” sets at top weight for each move (if I understand correctly) even though on paper someone might say that he is doing 3-5 moves with 3-5 sets each. This looks like a high volume workout of 15-20 sets or so. In reality, its much more of a Yates “low volume” workout. Yates only counted 1 or 2 sets for maybe 2 moves per bodypart. It seems that more pros than we’ve all assumed, use Dorian’s training style after all.?.

This, I think (at least from my perspective) is the genesis of the confusion for many, and the frustration by some of the vets with more exposure to magazines, videos and lifters.

DH

[/quote]

Yeh!!! thats exactly what ive been trying to get at as well lol this whole topic isn’t blabbing on to annoy everyone asking them about HOW to ramp etc, I understand it inside out but its all about the confusion that goes with it. There never seems to give a straight answer on everything, I mean another confusing example is if it was so obvious that Pros ramp up to their max out set why would theres be plenty of articles on the net explaining why you shouldn’t train like pros because of the ‘HIGH VOLUME’ which will cause overtraining - Isn’t that going to cause some confusion??. Yet in reality these guy’s are using nothing but HIGH VOLUME!!! RIGHT?? as they are ramping up the the all out.

Now heres another couple of Pros that dont RAMP.

Take a look at this article on Lee Priests first ever workout, he claims to be training to failure on EVERY SET ???

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KFY/is_9_21/ai_109666882/

Heres info on another IFBB Pro Troy Alves, he says that he never Phyramids, but likes to pick a weight and stick with it for his working sets. He does 3 working sets per exercise.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KFY/is_8_23/ai_n15628797/pg_3/

Now here is an article I have however found explaining how pros do infact only perform 1 set.

http://www.naturalbodybuildinginfo.com/To-Gain-Muscle-All-Pros-Do-Only-1-Set.html

44

It is over-analyzing it to come up with a one-size-fits-all prescription or to expect that one size fits all with the pros. It sure doesn’t with anybody else.

If you plan to do your work set or sets at say 80% 1RM and you know from experience and how you feel today that you can just go right into it, fine!

If you feel, from how you feel today and from experience, that that would be unwise or just would not work well whereas ramping would, then fine.

Speaking in general, but individuals will vary, the stronger someone is, the more likely they are going to consider it unwise to jump right into work sets at relatively high percent weight.

45

Another aricle on Marcus Ruhl he says he uses High Volume.

www.bodybuilderprofiles.com/markus-ruhl.htm

Do a search for High Volume in the article to quickly see what im on about.

So what is High Volume??? if all pros ramp to one heavy set (low volume) lol

46

The labels are semantics as far as I’m concerned.

Ronnie works up to a heaviest set of 8-20 reps on a given exercise, tells the magazines(if they even interview him) that he did 5 sets.

Dorian works up to a heaviest set of 8-20 reps on a given exercise, tells the magazines he only did 1(work) set.

They probably did the same exact workout but just view it from different perspectives.

47

[quote]slick123456 wrote:
Another aricle on Marcus Ruhl he says he uses High Volume.

www.bodybuilderprofiles.com/markus-ruhl.htm

Do a search for High Volume in the article to quickly see what im on about.

So what is High Volume??? if all pros ramp to one heavy set (low volume) lol
[/quote]

Some of you have reasoning skills so poor that this isn’t even fun anymore. I wouldn’t call my biceps day “low volume” at all, especially lately. I still ramp up. Is it even possible for you to think outside of the little confined box you’ve built up?

Like Bill Roberts wrote, the stronger you get and the greater the risk of injury, the LESS sense it makes to jump into some super heavy working set.

Not only that, but most of you in this thread are nowhere near developed enough for the attitudes you have.

48

[quote]Scott M wrote:
The labels are semantics as far as I’m concerned.

Ronnie works up to a heaviest set of 8-20 reps on a given exercise, tells the magazines(if they even interview him) that he did 5 sets.

Dorian works up to a heaviest set of 8-20 reps on a given exercise, tells the magazines he only did 1(work) set.

They probably did the same exact workout but just view it from different perspectives.

[/quote]

Yeh that is starting to make sense now big time!

49

So the moral of the story is that if for example you look at a pros routine and they do 20 sets for example not all sets are created equal, as they may drop set on some exercises like Jay Cutler, Phyramid right up like Ruhl or simply perform straight sets like Troy Alves or Evan Centopani or like the others Flat Phyramid/Ramp, or whatever they refer to it as.

50

[quote]slick123456 wrote:
So the moral of the story is that if for example you look at a pros routine and they do 20 sets for example not all sets are created equal, as they may drop set on some exercises like Jay Cutler, Phyramid right up like Ruhl or simply perform straight sets like Troy Alves or Evan Centopani or like the others Flat Phyramid/Ramp, or whatever they refer to it as.[/quote]

Dude, some of those guys at the upper levels don’t even count sets. It is only the newbs making this extra complicated because they are trying to rationalize all of this without actually getting in a gym and lifting.

This was common knowledge when people actually had to go to the fucking gym and watch big people lift in order to learn how to do so.

You are screwing yourself.

51

[quote]Professor X wrote:
slick123456 wrote:
So the moral of the story is that if for example you look at a pros routine and they do 20 sets for example not all sets are created equal, as they may drop set on some exercises like Jay Cutler, Phyramid right up like Ruhl or simply perform straight sets like Troy Alves or Evan Centopani or like the others Flat Phyramid/Ramp, or whatever they refer to it as.

Dude, some of those guys at the upper levels don’t even count sets. It is only the newbs making this extra complicated because they are trying to rationalize all of this without actually getting in a gym and lifting.

This was common knowledge when people actually had to go to the fucking gym and watch big people lift in order to learn how to do so.

You are screwing yourself.[/quote]

Yeh i def see where your coming from lol I feel the main prob is sometimes theirs so much bull and contradicting info out their when you just wanna find some info to get going you end up going the analysis to paralasis route u know

52

[quote]slick123456 wrote:
Another aricle on Marcus Ruhl he says he uses High Volume.

www.bodybuilderprofiles.com/markus-ruhl.htm

Do a search for High Volume in the article to quickly see what im on about.

So what is High Volume??? if all pros ramp to one heavy set (low volume) lol
[/quote]

Here is Ruhl doing “SHIP” (Smith machine High Incline Presses):

Looks like he ramps up to a top set, just like Ronnie and most of the other pros.

Lee Priest doing flat DB bench:

Ramps up to a top set.

Like Scott said, it’s mostly semantics. Some pros count all ramping sets as “sets”, others only count the final set. It doesn’t really matter which one you choose to do, the end result is pretty much identical in most cases.

Now, some pros do more exercises than others per bodypart per workout. So, perhaps you could distinguish high vs. low volume depending on the number of exercises done. But even then, what have you really gained by doing so?

If you believe in “modeling” (copying the behaviors of successful people who have come before you in order to achieve what they have achieved), then go with ramping. Sure, there are the occasional exceptions to the rule who don’t train like this and still get big. But, the majority of those who truly push the size envelope do. If you truly think that straight sets are the way to go, do that. But whichever method you choose, just get in the gym and bust your ass, don’t waste so much time and energy making mountains out of molehills.

53

Yeh thanks for all the input its really starting to make complete sense and clear things up now A LOT lol thanks

54

Can any one tell me how Jay is working out his chest here

Is it just another form of ramping?

I also noticed in this video that Ruhl is Phyramiding up in weight on each set and going down in rep pushing each set hard.

55

Guy, go to the fucking gym and try it out.

56

[quote]slick123456 wrote:
Can any one tell me how Jay is working out his chest here

Is it just another form of ramping?
[/quote]

Yes, he’s ramping up to a top heavy set. On the incline BB bench he then does a “burn out” set with 225.

Yes, he’s pushing hard, but he’s nowhere near failure on any of his earlier sets.

57

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
slick123456 wrote:
Can any one tell me how Jay is working out his chest here

Is it just another form of ramping?

Yes, he’s ramping up to a top heavy set. On the incline BB bench he then does a “burn out” set with 225.

I also noticed in this video that Ruhl is Phyramiding up in weight on each set and going down in rep pushing each set hard.

Yes, he’s pushing hard, but he’s nowhere near failure on any of his earlier sets. [/quote]

Oh right great lol thanks for clearing that up, this has now helped me to understand that they all generally work up to that all out heavy set but they also ramp up in their own way lol

I take it burn out sets arn’t done to failure ? thanks 4 all the input its really appreciated.

58

[quote]slick123456 wrote:
Can any one tell me how Jay is working out his chest here

Is it just another form of ramping?

I also noticed in this video that Ruhl is Phyramiding up in weight on each set and going down in rep pushing each set hard.

This is totally off-topic but did anyone else get annoyed at how horrible of a spotter that chick was? She was CONSTANTLY touching the bar when she shouldn’t have been.

59

[quote]josh86 wrote:
slick123456 wrote:
Can any one tell me how Jay is working out his chest here

Is it just another form of ramping?

I also noticed in this video that Ruhl is Phyramiding up in weight on each set and going down in rep pushing each set hard.

This is totally off-topic but did anyone else get annoyed at how horrible of a spotter that chick was? She was CONSTANTLY touching the bar when she shouldn’t have been.[/quote]

Yeh i noticed that too haha

60

I’m not getting that Slick is an idiot or being contentious, guys. He is seeing something for the first time.

When a person flips open a mag, sees that Lee Priest says to do 20 total sets for your biceps spread over 4-5 exercises using a weight that keeps you between 8-12 reps, one of two things happens…

  1. The guy is a newb and goes to the gym and busts a nut on every set. He gets tired, then sick, then discouraged, then quits. Figures he doesn’t have what it takes. An honest attempt buy an uninformed person. Some might even say, negligently uninformed by the powers that be.

  2. The guy has some experience, thinks that volume is insane, and then lumps all pros into the “genetic mutant/drugs” category and consequently writes them off as a valid source of information whatsoever. He start reading Brawn and thinks Stuart McRober and/or Aruthur Jones is the Messiah.

Either way, a simple qualifying sentence (that not all sets are maximal effort and load) that was left out of the article, prevents alot of people from ever understanding how all of this REALLY works.

For example, Scott Abel, probably the most well known trainer (along with Charles Glass) known in the bodybuilding world will have you do 18-22 sets per bodypart, each one to failure, each one with a load that keeps you in the repetition zone for that move. Ramping is neither stated nor implied. Because Scott, who has 3 decades of pro experience, doesn’t want you doing ramps. He wants stright sets all with max effort, all in the required rep range. If ramping is so widespread (and I’m not saying it is or is not here) then one would think that would be stated by a guy who has trained over 300 contest winners…

Poliquin works with pros such as Sarcev and others. He never uses ramps beyond a basic warmup. Everything else is balls out training for the rep range given. About 10-15 straight sets oftentimes.

So Slick isn’t arguing the merits of ramping here. He is verbalizing a newfound understanding AND verbalizing his surpirse that such a simple concept isn’t mentioned in the vast majority of books and mags.

Yates’ training stood out for a reason. He did a modified HIT scheme with ramps. This was against the norm.

So to tell someone to just “go f***ing do it, dude” is missing the point.

Slick isn’t wanting to argue the merit of ramps, and he isn’t asking how to do them (so he can be gang-banged by everybody who has talked about this recently).

He is saying that it is odd and frustrating that this simple concept. This powerful strength building and recovery assisting techinque is in fact what is one of the best ways to get bigger and stronger.

I see his point, again becasue I don’t buy mags or videos. I don’t train with Jay or Dennis or anybody else. I’m in rural midwestern America. No pros for miles and miles… And I don’t waste money on advertorial media such as mags.

You know what they say about assumption… it makes an ass outa you and me. You because you were in the position of dispensing information (authors, articles)in a professional sense, and me because I’m spinning my wheels (because you left out one VERY important qualifying statement on HOW to train).

I too assumed that when I read sets, that those were all working sets. Warmps werent’ even counted toward this total. And many even state this as such.

Without breaking my arm to pat myself on the back, I know what Im doing when it comes to this. I’ve achieved what many younger guys are currnetly working toward. so to lump slick into the beligerent or idiotic categories is in itself, stupid.

DH

ANYWAY: All the best, Slick. Keep on learning. Todays dogma is tomorrow’s dung…nowhere else is that more true than in BB.

[quote]Ducket wrote:
Guy, go to the fucking gym and try it out.[/quote]