Doing massive eating right now and having a hard time stuffing all that food down my gullet. Any of you tried any digestive enzyme supplements? Or have any other tips for shoving a lot of food in?
Eat more often if you’re having trouble with size your meals. I drink a lot of water while I eat as well.
I used digestive enzymes fairly heavily when I did massive eating (5-7k cal/day). In my opinion, this is a good idea, because it puts less stress on the body to produce so many enzymes to digest all that cooked food. It allows the body to concentrate on other important things. One thing I did notice was less gas when using the digestive enzymes. Oh, and a probiotic supplement wouldn’t be a bad idea, either.
Hope this helps,
Neil
Who ever said the body is stressed by producing digestive enzymes? I’ve never seen anything to support this.
Many people feel better (less gas…) and have regular bowel movements as opposed to constipation when taking digestive enzymes. This has been my experience as well as several other people I know. The best forms of digestive enzymes are plant based. These work in a wider pH range then e.g. pancreatic enzyme supplements and are more effective.
Are you suggesting that the body can produce endless supplies of enzymes out of thin air? They have to be produced somehow.
Oh, look for digestive enzymes that contain betaine hydrochloride in them…that’s a good thing to have if you’re eating a lot of meat.
Take care,
Neil
Digestive enzymes are bunk. Probiotics are good for intenstinal health but would not help for digestion.
Enzymes are, by their very nature, reusable proteins. You don’t need an “endless supply” of them regardless of how much you eat.
Machine,
“Digestive enzymes are bunk. Probiotics are good for intenstinal health but would not help for digestion.”
They’re good for intestinal health but not digestion? Do you know what the intestine does?
And why do you consider digestive enzymes to be “bunk”?
Neil
DocT,
The point was that the body has to produce the enzymes somehow. They not made magically, therefore they need materials to be made from, energy has to be used to make them, and it also takes time. The person I made the “endless” comment seemed to think that there is no work in producing them. I did not mean that you need endless amounts of them.
Neil
I understand your comment, Neil, but the body has to produce lots of proteins for lots of different reasons 24 hours a day. I doubt seriously that the small amount of protein produced as digestive enzymes will in any way “stress” the body any more.
Do you have anything to support that kind of statement?
DocT,
It’s more that enzymes are used for more than just digestion.
Neil
I used to use digestive enzymes when I first got into the game as they really helped me with indigestion and complete use of food sources. Now though my body and eating habits are optimal and I feel no need for thier use. I honestly believe that if you are eating so much that you aren’t making enough enzymes for that particular meal then you are eating too much at once. In this case I’d split it up into even more meals. I’ve heard as much as 12 meals a day on massive eating in some situations. If you are already in tip top shape they may not do much for you. Otherwise if you have a problem with digestion, particularly of proteins, I’d try 'em out and see what they’ll do for you. Perscription grade will be the most effective but if you need this grade you probably have some sort of condition.
Neil, I would listen to the Doc, what he’s saying and what I’m getting at is that they will be re-used but the body only has so much to use at one time. This is a natural limiting factor of one persons particular digestive system. Also, most over the counter enzymes are denatured crap. In fact I took one that was so badly perserved that it upset my digestion instead of helping it. Lets imagine 10X mexican food for three days, that is acidity due to undigested protein, essentially “shitty” enzymes. Pardon the pun.
I use Wobenzym-N Red enzymes. I used them while bulking. It really did reduce the amount of gas. I also noticed that I had big reduction in the amount of daily poop. Which I might add doubles for me on a good bulk. I also noticed something that I was not expecting at all. I have arthritis in the big toe of my right foot. In the past I have used massive doses of Glucosamine/Chondroitin and Fish oil which reduced felt pain maybe 50%. While on the Wobenzym I have no pain in the toe at all! This and the better digestion are the reason I still take them.
who gives a shit if you want to use the fukn things use them if they “work” for you kjeep using them if not flag it.
“Placebo effect is a wonderful thing and makes people millions of dollars every day…”
-Whetu “the fukn animal”
Like Lowell, I use Wobenzym. At first I thought it did reduce the amount of gas produced but I’m not so sure lately. (This, to the dismay of my coworkers. But, it’s ok, they’re a group of T-men who contribute their fair share of methane to the atmosphere too.)
This is from issue #136. Gang of Five talks about digestive enzyme supplementation.
Digestive Enzymes and Poop
Q: Based on the amount of waste I seem to put out relative to how much I eat, I doubt that everything I swallow is being digested and absorbed. I’ve seen various digestive enzyme supplements for sale and I was wondering if these could perhaps help me digest my food faster and absorb better?
Tom Incledon
The amount of fecal material excreted is closely linked with the amount of dietary fiber consumed. You’re right in assuming that this food isn’t being broken down. As far as taking digestive enzymes to aid in breaking down proteins, carbohydrates, and fats, don’t waste your money.
Unless you have a clinical condition, digestive enzymes won’t help you. The major limiting step in the digestion of food is gastric emptying — the rate at which your stomach squirts out mechanically manipulated food to the small intestine. If you’re not already doing it, try eating six small meals each day. This will limit digestive overload and insure that you’re breaking down and absorbing more of what you eat.
On a side note, I firmly believe that enzymes like bromelain can be taken on an empty stomach and are very beneficial for combating inflammation (in those individuals that have digestive problems). I’ve seen too many anecdotal cases to dismiss this notion. There’s also research to support this. Although the studies can be slammed on an individual basis, collectively there seems to be enough evidence to show that there’s an effect. The mechanisms, though, are debatable.
John Berardi
I get this one a lot. Since the question is coming from a bodybuilding perspective, I’ll assume you’re interested in protein assimilation. Understand that there are three limiting factors in protein assimilation. They are digestion, absorption, and transit time. You see, if protein isn’t completely digested, then the small intestine simply can’t absorb it and it’ll pass right out into the feces during normal transit times.
Also, if there’s a whole lot of undigested amino acids and peptides in the small intestine, the transporters may become saturated and full absorption can’t take place. Finally, if the small intestine transit time is too fast, then even complete digestion and the availability of receptors can’t stop your nutrients from just being swept out of the body.
So with three potentially limiting factors, determining which is most important to assimilation is difficult, but very important to your question. This is especially important if your protein is jacked up to my recommended 2 g/lb (that’s two grams per pound of bodyweight for you newbies out there). Several studies investigating this question have shown that only 75 to 90% of moderated doses (25 to 48 grams) of intact proteins are assimilated while 90 to 95% of very large doses (up to 100 grams) of partially digested proteins are assimilated. This indicates that digestion is the big limiting factor and that if you provide more digested protein to the small intestine, it will assimilate more.
So by targeting digestion, protein assimilation can be enhanced. In individuals who suffer from pancreatitis (those people who don’t secrete enough natural digestive enzymes), digestive enzyme supplementation is very helpful. So it may be helpful in healthy people, too. The problem, however, is that regular ol’ digestive enzymes are easily broken down in the stomach before they ever get to the small intestine. Since we want them to act in the small intestine (that’s where the natural ones work), this isn’t a good scenario.
Enter enteric coated tablets. Pancreatic enzymes delivered in this manner have proven to be most effective since they are protected from stomach acidity (pH of about 2), but dissolve well in the small intestine (pH of about 6). Other non-coated enzymes aren’t very effective.
In addition to digestion, I mentioned that transit time is another important factor in protein assimilation. This one is easier to manipulate than digestion. Transit time is slowed down in proportion to your protein and fat intake. This is called a dose-dependant manner. The higher the dose of protein or fat, the slower the intestinal transit. This gives the body more time for the protein to be digested and absorbed before it’s swept away. There’s also an herb called passion flower which may slow down intestinal transit time.
So what’s my final answer? In regard to digestive enzymes, unless you can find a good enteric coated digestive enzyme complex, you probably won’t get enough benefit from regular digestive enzymes to justify the cost. In regard to transit time, combine high-protein meals with some essential fatty acids. This will definitely slow transit time. If you want to try a supplemental approach, 4 to 8 grams of passion flower with your higher protein meals may also help.
Cy Willson
I’m not a huge fan of digestive aids. Why? Well, assuming that they even work, they really don’t offer much of an advantage. Now, assuming that you masticate (chew) your food and aren’t nicknamed “the vacuum” by friends, and you don’t consume 200 grams of protein in one sitting, about 98% of that protein you eat will be absorbed as amino acids. The remaining 2% will be excreted in your feces.
So, let’s assume you have an effective digestive aid and it digests that extra 2%. Let’s also assume that you’ve just eaten 50 grams of protein. Ordinarily, you’d absorb 49 grams, but with the aids, you’ll digest an extra gram. That doesn’t seem very cost efficient to me since you’re essentially paying the cost of one serving of the digestive aid for one measly gram of protein! So, if the bottle provides 16 servings at $16.00, you’re paying $1.00 per gram of protein. Doesn’t make sense to me.
Tammy Thomas, Dietician
Are you telling me you shit an awful lot? If so, my guess is it’s because you eat like a horse! Do you think that for maximum food absorption, you should have minimum waste? And if you have a lot of waste, you have absorption problems?
I’m not sure what you want to know, but I’ll answer with what I know, hoping not to insult your intelligence. Personally, I’d think that a healthy individual who eats a variety of foods would have no enzymes lacking and that there’s plenty of villi for maximum absorption. The exception may be those lacking lactase, for example. But I think that certain foods (like bananas and applesauce, for example) are completely digested and absorbed, so it depends on the diet and the foods eaten.
Obviously fiber isn’t digested, so it contributes a lot to waste. “Waste” is also called “residue,” which refers to the net fecal mass after digestion. This is made up of undigested fiber, sloughed mucosal cells, mucous, and different amounts of undigested starches (like “resistant” starch, but that’s a whole different article altogether), sugars, protein, and minerals.
There are therapeutic diets referred to as “low or minimum-residue” diets for those who need reduced fecal output, and these diets obviously would lack the fiber and indigestible foods. You, on the other hand, are probably on a high-residue (fiber) diet, which is why you have mammoth turds.
Would I recommend enzymes for you to maximize absorption? Of course not! I’m a dietician, and we don’t believe in that sort of thing. I’m sure you have all your enzymes and all are functioning properly. For some people with compromised absorption, most likely due to disease or surgery, enzymes are not really used. But for those lacking lactase, for example, the enzyme helps.
Uh, yeah I know what the intestine does. Do you? Probiotics provide your intestine with healthy bacteria. They don’t increase the absorption or digestion of nutrients. Get it?
A lot of the experts agree with me Neil. Cy Willson, John Berardi, Tom Incledon have all stated that digestion enzymes are pretty much bunk.
Refer to Appetite Construction Issue 202 and the Gang of Five column in Issue 136. It helps to do some back issue reading Neil.
By the way, most enzyme products aren’t enteric coated and don’t even make it to the small intestine to do their job.
…John Berardi…have all stated that digestion enzymes are pretty much bunk.
Plant based digestive enzymes work in a wide range of pHs and start working the the acid pH of the stomach. Berardi said he was not aware of this when he made his comment (I e-mailed him the info). Clearly not everyone needs them, but if some people based on personal experience are helped by them…