I’ve talked to a lot of Vietnam vets who hate McCain because of this. Of course, none of them spent a day being tortured, much less five years.
I am not a big fan of McCain but I will probably vote for him.
That said, this is a bunch of garbage. I lose respect for anyone that associates themselves with it.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I am not a big fan of McCain but I will probably vote for him.
That said, this is a bunch of garbage. I lose respect for anyone that associates themselves with it.[/quote]
Truth
You know, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth set us up for this.
I really don’t want to see the republicans bitch about this shit now. Something about chickens coming home to roost comes to mind.
That said, anything said under the duress of torture needs to be completely disregarded. It’s just as offensive that people are doing this to McCain as it was when Rove et al did it to Kerry.
[quote]wirewound wrote:
You know, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth set us up for this.
I really don’t want to see the republicans bitch about this shit now. Something about chickens coming home to roost comes to mind.
That said, anything said under the duress of torture needs to be completely disregarded. It’s just as offensive that people are doing this to McCain as it was when Rove et al did it to Kerry.[/quote]
I don’t know how you can make this comparison. McCain made films under the duress of torture. Kerry lied about his service (the Cambodia thing) accepted at least one Purple Heart he did not deserve (but he used it to be sent home early) and then made his war record a centerpiece of his campaign (just look at the convention). He deserved some serious scrutiny and criticism.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
wirewound wrote:
You know, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth set us up for this.
I really don’t want to see the republicans bitch about this shit now. Something about chickens coming home to roost comes to mind.
That said, anything said under the duress of torture needs to be completely disregarded. It’s just as offensive that people are doing this to McCain as it was when Rove et al did it to Kerry.
I don’t know how you can make this comparison. McCain made films under the duress of torture. Kerry lied about his service (the Cambodia thing) accepted at least one Purple Heart he did not deserve (but he used it to be sent home early) and then made his war record a centerpiece of his campaign (just look at the convention). He deserved some serious scrutiny and criticism.[/quote]
LOL! More double standards from the conservatives!
If you can’t even admit that what Rove did with the Swift Boats thing was scummy, then you’re beyond hope and I hope they drag McCain through the shit just to piss you off. Not that it matters - they will anyway.
Now that you get a taste of your own medicine, you cry ‘foul’. Rich!
[quote]wirewound wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
wirewound wrote:
You know, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth set us up for this.
I really don’t want to see the republicans bitch about this shit now. Something about chickens coming home to roost comes to mind.
That said, anything said under the duress of torture needs to be completely disregarded. It’s just as offensive that people are doing this to McCain as it was when Rove et al did it to Kerry.
I don’t know how you can make this comparison. McCain made films under the duress of torture. Kerry lied about his service (the Cambodia thing) accepted at least one Purple Heart he did not deserve (but he used it to be sent home early) and then made his war record a centerpiece of his campaign (just look at the convention). He deserved some serious scrutiny and criticism.
LOL! More double standards from the conservatives!
If you can’t even admit that what Rove did with the Swift Boats thing was scummy, then you’re beyond hope and I hope they drag McCain through the shit just to piss you off. Not that it matters - they will anyway.
Now that you get a taste of your own medicine, you cry ‘foul’. Rich![/quote]
Why is questoning his record scummy? Kerry was not in Cambodia on Christmas but he lied about it. Kerry injured himself destroying rice and accepted a Purple Heart he shouldn’t have gotten and that got him sent home 1/4 of the way through his tour. Why is pointing this out scummy?
I have been waiting for years for someone to explain why this subject is off limits.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I have been waiting for years for someone to explain why this subject is off limits.[/quote]
I think it’s scummy because it is irrelevant and it helps to erode and eliminate the level of discussion about the issues.
Back in 2004 there were more important things to talk about than what Kerry did or didn’t do while in the combat zone to get a purple heart. The fact was that he was over there doing what he felt was his best to serve the country. The same cannot be said about those who he was running against.
I’m not a believer that those who rule a country need to serve in the military but to criticize those who do serve and to allow it to be a part of the campaign was pointless and it hurts the country.
I don’t recall Bush saying that the swift boat fellows should shut-up or that it wasn’t an issue. I believe he should have said that and proven that he was a true leader of character. The fact that he didn’t say it doesn’t change my view of him at all but it was a good opportunity to make the election about the issues and he didn’t take it.
[quote]905Patrick wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
I have been waiting for years for someone to explain why this subject is off limits.
I think it’s scummy because it is irrelevant and it helps to erode and eliminate the level of discussion about the issues.
Back in 2004 there were more important things to talk about than what Kerry did or didn’t do while in the combat zone to get a purple heart. The fact was that he was over there doing what he felt was his best to serve the country. The same cannot be said about those who he was running against.
[/quote]
He made a huge deal of his own service at the Deocratic Convention. The fact that he only served 4 months and then took a free ride home on a fake Purple Heart is totally relevant.
[quote]
I’m not a believer that those who rule a country need to serve in the military but to criticize those who do serve and to allow it to be a part of the campaign was pointless and it hurts the country.
I don’t recall Bush saying that the swift boat fellows should shut-up or that it wasn’t an issue. I believe he should have said that and proven that he was a true leader of character. The fact that he didn’t say it doesn’t change my view of him at all but it was a good opportunity to make the election about the issues and he didn’t take it.[/quote]
I don’t recall Kerry telling people to shut up about the allegations of Bush’s cocaine use or the fae documents Rather used to show Bush skipped out of some of his National Guard weekends.
I think Obama’s drug dealing and the favoritism shown McCain because his dad was an Admiral should be considered when judging ther chraacters.
We all know their campaign promises are hollow.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I am not a big fan of McCain but I will probably vote for him.
That said, this is a bunch of garbage. I lose respect for anyone that associates themselves with it.[/quote]
I resect what you are saying but if he did crack under pressure that would make him a different man than if he did not crack.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I resect what you are saying but if he did crack under pressure that would make him a different man than if he did not crack.[/quote]
Oh, jesus. moron.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
I am not a big fan of McCain but I will probably vote for him.
That said, this is a bunch of garbage. I lose respect for anyone that associates themselves with it.
I resect what you are saying but if he did crack under pressure that would make him a different man than if he did not crack.[/quote]
Real easy for you or me to say. McCain was one of the heroes of the POWs. You clearly have no idea what they went through. I just finished Robert Coram’s biography of POW Medal of Honor winner Colonel Bud Day, I recommend it.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Why is questoning his record scummy? Kerry was not in Cambodia on Christmas but he lied about it. Kerry injured himself destroying rice and accepted a Purple Heart he shouldn’t have gotten and that got him sent home 1/4 of the way through his tour. Why is pointing this out scummy?
I have been waiting for years for someone to explain why this subject is off limits.[/quote]
Questioning his record is not scummy. The republican campaign and candidate himself paying people to be witnesses to something they never sawand flat out lie about the facts of his record…that’s scummy.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
wirewound wrote:
You know, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth set us up for this.
I really don’t want to see the republicans bitch about this shit now. Something about chickens coming home to roost comes to mind.
That said, anything said under the duress of torture needs to be completely disregarded. It’s just as offensive that people are doing this to McCain as it was when Rove et al did it to Kerry.
I don’t know how you can make this comparison. McCain made films under the duress of torture. Kerry lied about his service (the Cambodia thing) accepted at least one Purple Heart he did not deserve (but he used it to be sent home early) and then made his war record a centerpiece of his campaign (just look at the convention). He deserved some serious scrutiny and criticism.[/quote]
I agree with you to some extent, Kerry was asking for it with the “reporting for duty” schtick. But, irregularities in his record or not, I think Kerry was punished in 2004 for what he said to Congress after coming home, not for what he did or didn’t do over there. His comments on his fellow veterans were despicable and self-serving, no question. But, short tour or not, he went to Vietnam, served in combat, and won a Silver Star.
Bottom line, whether or not Kerry got medals that were borderline, he led men in combat and performed somewhere between average and exemplary. At the same time, Bush, a guy who uses surrogates to impugn the patriotism of others, skipped out on the war with a cushy Air National Guard job. And, given how hard those spots were to get (I don’t have the statistic handy, but it was VERY tough), it’s pretty likely he used his father’s connections to get it. Doesn’t change the fact Kerry’s a scumbag whose lies were repeated to POWs as the North Vietnamese tortured them. But it does make it pretty ridiculous for a guy to lose a campaign on his war record to a chickenhawk.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
I am not a big fan of McCain but I will probably vote for him.
That said, this is a bunch of garbage. I lose respect for anyone that associates themselves with it.
I resect what you are saying but if he did crack under pressure that would make him a different man than if he did not crack.[/quote]
If he cracked under pressure he would have taken the offer and came home early. Instead he stuck around until all his fellow prisoners were released. That is the mark of a good man.
[quote]Petedacook wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Why is questoning his record scummy? Kerry was not in Cambodia on Christmas but he lied about it. Kerry injured himself destroying rice and accepted a Purple Heart he shouldn’t have gotten and that got him sent home 1/4 of the way through his tour. Why is pointing this out scummy?
I have been waiting for years for someone to explain why this subject is off limits.
Questioning his record is not scummy. The republican campaign and candidate himself paying people to be witnesses to something they never sawand flat out lie about the facts of his record…that’s scummy. [/quote]
You realize Kerry was the one that lied don’t you? He lied about being in Cambodia, he lied by accepting a medal he knew he wasn’t qualified for, he lied about all the atrocities in the Senate hearing…
Veterans disliked Kerry because of his anti-war stance when he returned and his testimony to congress. Most lumped him in with Jane Fonda.
For him to run on his Vietnam Service, after what he said about it, was bizarre. I understand why he did it but still it seemed very hypocritical considering his anti-military posturing.
As to his war record who the fuck knows. It was a Silver Star after all and the military doesn’t hand those out like candy. The citations are dry and factual so the intensity of the moment doesn’t always come thru. I won’t judge him cause I didn’t see it. On the surface the Purple Heart stuff seemed pretty minor to me but if he wanted to push it to get off the river then he was entitled to do so. Many others would not have. Many would. Some guys get into that situation and they live for it. Others get torn up by it. Again the real issue is what he said afterwards and how it was used by the NVA as propoganda. That’s what Vets remember.
Nobody here should judge McCain over what happened when he was a POW. Few would survive as well as he did in that environment. Say what you want about his politics but he was a Naval Academy Grad, Combat fighter pilot and distinguished Senator admired by both parties. Few among us could do any of those three things.
Obama and his minions would be foolish to make it an issue considering BHO’s lack of military experience or understanding.
If you remember the republican primary’s with georgie and McCain ,the Bush camp was trying to throw some dought on McCain’s Nam service with statements’ they were making to try and make him look bad.
Thats one of the reason’s i thought of the Bush group as a bunch of low life’s,when they tried to put a P.O.W.s time as a prisoner in question.And from a guy that was’nt even there,but was taking some awful expensive flying lesson’s at tax payers expense.
[quote]hedo wrote:
Veterans disliked Kerry because of his anti-war stance when he returned and his testimony to congress. Most lumped him in with Jane Fonda.
For him to run on his Vietnam Service, after what he said about it, was bizarre. I understand why he did it but still it seemed very hypocritical considering his anti-military posturing.
As to his war record who the fuck knows. It was a Silver Star after all and the military doesn’t hand those out like candy. The citations are dry and factual so the intensity of the moment doesn’t always come thru.
I won’t judge him cause I didn’t see it. On the surface the Purple Heart stuff seemed pretty minor to me but if he wanted to push it to get off the river then he was entitled to do so. Many others would not have. Many would.
Some guys get into that situation and they live for it. Others get torn up by it. Again the real issue is what he said afterwards and how it was used by the NVA as propoganda. That’s what Vets remember.
Nobody here should judge McCain over what happened when he was a POW. Few would survive as well as he did in that environment. Say what you want about his politics but he was a Naval Academy Grad, Combat fighter pilot and distinguished Senator admired by both parties. Few among us could do any of those three things.
Obama and his minions would be foolish to make it an issue considering BHO’s lack of military experience or understanding. [/quote]
Do you believe there were Viet Nam Vets. Left over there that America was afraid to bring back?