Did Israel Have a Choice?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
lixy wrote:
Target practice, Zionist style.

Lixy,

Why aren’t you ever able to show up to express outrage for any of the misdeeds done by Muslims? Here’s a particularly loathsome one: jihadists butt-raping Muslim boys so that they’re shamed enough to blow themselves up:

Now, I have heard that in several collections of Imam Bukhari’s hadiths (admittedly, not those considered sahih), Muhammad used to “suck the tongues of boys,” so maybe this isn’t exactly considered “bad” in Islam (not to mention the pearl-faced boys promised to martyrs in the Qur’an). Perhaps it’s like prison rape, where only the person raped is considered a homosexual. Perhaps that explains your lack of outrage.

This is an interesting read, what’s your take on it

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0805-02.htm[/quote]

That only a gullible sap would believe him:

052.024
YUSUFALI: Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded.
PICKTHAL: And there go round, waiting on them menservants of their own, as they were hidden pearls.
SHAKIR: And round them shall go boys of theirs as if they were hidden pearls.

056.017
YUSUFALI: Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness),
PICKTHAL: There wait on them immortal youths
SHAKIR: Round about them shall go youths never altering in age,

076.019
YUSUFALI: And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls.
PICKTHAL: There wait on them immortal youths, whom, when thou seest, thou wouldst take for scattered pearls.
SHAKIR: And round about them shall go youths never altering in age; when you see them you will think them to be scattered pearls.

078.031
YUSUFALI: Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfilment of (the heart’s) desires;
PICKTHAL: Lo! for the duteous is achievement -
SHAKIR: Surely for those who guard (against evil) is achievement,

078.032
YUSUFALI: Gardens enclosed, and grapevines;
PICKTHAL: Gardens enclosed and vineyards,
SHAKIR: Gardens and vineyards,

078.033
YUSUFALI: And voluptuous women of equal age;
PICKTHAL: And voluptuous women of equal age;
SHAKIR: And voluptuous women of equal age;

037.040
YUSUFALI: But the sincere (and devoted) Servants of Allah,-
PICKTHAL: Save single-minded slaves of Allah;
SHAKIR: Save the servants of Allah, the purified ones.

037.041
YUSUFALI: For them is a Sustenance determined,
PICKTHAL: For them there is a known provision,
SHAKIR: For them is a known sustenance,

037.042
YUSUFALI: Fruits (Delights); and they (shall enjoy) honour and dignity,
PICKTHAL: Fruits. And they will be honoured
SHAKIR: Fruits, and they shall be highly honored,

037.043
YUSUFALI: In Gardens of Felicity,
PICKTHAL: In the Gardens of delight,
SHAKIR: In gardens of pleasure,

037.044
YUSUFALI: Facing each other on Thrones (of Dignity):
PICKTHAL: On couches facing one another;
SHAKIR: On thrones, facing each other.

037.045
YUSUFALI: Round will be passed to them a Cup from a clear-flowing fountain,
PICKTHAL: A cup from a gushing spring is brought round for them,
SHAKIR: A bowl shall be made to go round them from water running out of springs,

037.046
YUSUFALI: Crystal-white, of a taste delicious to those who drink (thereof),
PICKTHAL: White, delicious to the drinkers,
SHAKIR: White, delicious to those who drink.

037.047
YUSUFALI: Free from headiness; nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom.
PICKTHAL: Wherein there is no headache nor are they made mad thereby.
SHAKIR: There shall be no trouble in it, nor shall they be exhausted therewith.

037.048
YUSUFALI: And besides them will be chaste women, restraining their glances, with big eyes (of wonder and beauty).
PICKTHAL: And with them are those of modest gaze, with lovely eyes,
SHAKIR: And with them shall be those who restrain the eyes, having beautiful eyes;

037.049
YUSUFALI: As if they were (delicate) eggs closely guarded.
PICKTHAL: (Pure) as they were hidden eggs (of the ostrich).
SHAKIR: As if they were eggs carefully protected.

I copied and pasted these surahs from the USC Muslim student association’s online Qur’an.

There’s more, but you get the idea. Wait,… no you don’t.

62

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Also, where in the Koran are the pearl faced boys promised?

If you are refering to this passage:
The Prophet Muhammad was heard as saying: ?The smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah (a Damascus suburb) to Sana?a (Yemen)?

Then you are out of luck, it is not Koran it is Hadith and a Gharib one at that.

Mind you, not like you to let the truth get in the way of a good argument.[/quote]

Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.

Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.

Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.

63

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Also, where in the Koran are the pearl faced boys promised?

If you are refering to this passage:
The Prophet Muhammad was heard as saying: ?The smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah (a Damascus suburb) to Sana?a (Yemen)?

Then you are out of luck, it is not Koran it is Hadith and a Gharib one at that.

Mind you, not like you to let the truth get in the way of a good argument.

Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.

Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.

Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.
[/quote]

Oh Ok so you are referring to the passages where the Koran talks about how in heaven there will be eternal children running around. Sounds pretty nice to me as a father. I love it when my daughter has friends round and they all run around and play.

Of course because of the time that this was written they refer to boys not children in general.

Isn’t it disgusting how modern day people who are obsessed with sex and paedophillia are able to corrupt such an innocent passage into something depraved?

64

relevent passage of the Koran for you PR

[Al-Imran 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding

65

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
relevent passage of the Koran for you PR

[Al-Imran 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding[/quote]

It’s funny that you’ll use the Qur’an when you think it makes your case, but will ignore what I post from the Qur’an when it undermines your case with the claim that I’m using an “extremist interpretation” or some such nonsense.

Anyways, I don’t see how Surah 3:7 is relevant to anything we’ve discussed. Does surah 3:7 now mean that Muslims understand Surahs 9:5 and 9:29 to be allegorical? If so, can you provide evidence of this claim? All it says is that some parts are allegorical, not which parts are. Here’s Ibn Kathir’s take:
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=3&tid=7740

Here’s his take on 9:5, which is called the “ayah of the sword”:
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20750

Any indication that it’s understood allegorically?

66

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Also, where in the Koran are the pearl faced boys promised?

If you are refering to this passage:
The Prophet Muhammad was heard as saying: ?The smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah (a Damascus suburb) to Sana?a (Yemen)?

Then you are out of luck, it is not Koran it is Hadith and a Gharib one at that.

Mind you, not like you to let the truth get in the way of a good argument.

Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.

Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.

Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.

Oh Ok so you are referring to the passages where the Koran talks about how in heaven there will be eternal children running around. Sounds pretty nice to me as a father. I love it when my daughter has friends round and they all run around and play.

Of course because of the time that this was written they refer to boys not children in general.

Isn’t it disgusting how modern day people who are obsessed with sex and paedophillia are able to corrupt such an innocent passage into something depraved?[/quote]

LOL. Ok. BTW, Surah 56:36 is the famous promise of virgins, in case you’re interested. But I’m sure Allah was just talking about virgins in a strictly non-sexual way. I’m sure Muhammad was trying to rally his band of cutthroats with promises of little kids to play with in heaven in a purely innocent fashion.

I’ve got a bridge to sell you also.

67

You really are having trouble with this. Ok, have you seen the second Star Wars movie? Empire Strikes Back. Well there is a scene where Luke is training with Yoda and they come across a tree that has a cave under it. Luke gets an uneasy feel about it but still wants to go in and explore. He goes to take his light saber with him and Yoda advises him against it saying that there is nothing in the tree other than what you take with you.

Well the Koran and the Bible seem to me to be a bit like that, you will get out of them what you take to them. If you go looking for messages to support violence then you will find them, equally if you go looking for messages of peace then you will find them.

Neither book was written with you as an intended reader. They were both written for people living over a thousand years ago in a different part of the world.

The Koran contains passages that are designed for an Islamic person living under threat of violence during a time when there was a very real chance of being invade at any time. Anyone who takes this as support for strapping a bomb to themselves and wandering off to a market would most likely have been someone prone to violence regardless of the ‘holy book’ that they were reading.

The problems in the Middle East are not caused by religion, they are exacerbated by extreme interpretations of religions (of all flavors.)

68

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Also, where in the Koran are the pearl faced boys promised?

If you are refering to this passage:
The Prophet Muhammad was heard as saying: ?The smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah (a Damascus suburb) to Sana?a (Yemen)?

Then you are out of luck, it is not Koran it is Hadith and a Gharib one at that.

Mind you, not like you to let the truth get in the way of a good argument.

Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.

Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.

Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.

Oh Ok so you are referring to the passages where the Koran talks about how in heaven there will be eternal children running around. Sounds pretty nice to me as a father. I love it when my daughter has friends round and they all run around and play.

Of course because of the time that this was written they refer to boys not children in general.

Isn’t it disgusting how modern day people who are obsessed with sex and paedophillia are able to corrupt such an innocent passage into something depraved?

LOL. Ok. BTW, Surah 56:36 is the famous promise of virgins, in case you’re interested. But I’m sure Allah was just talking about virgins in a strictly non-sexual way. I’m sure Muhammad was trying to rally his band of cutthroats with promises of little kids to play with in heaven in a purely innocent fashion.

I’ve got a bridge to sell you also.
[/quote]

Well at least he wasn’t promoting canabalism and human sacrifice whilst causing a close friend of his to betray him (ultimately leading to his suicide) just so that he could make a point.

I don’t expect you to agree with the writings of Mohammed, you are a Christian. If you agreed with Mohammed then you would not be a Christian. But pointing out how ludicrous and contradictary Islam is whilst being a devout Christian is hilarious. It is all a load of bollocks.

69

I’m not interested in getting anything out of the Qur’an by way of my own interpretation. I’m interested in understanding how MUSLIMS THEMSELVES understand it. How hard is that to understand?

What? Muhammad was the instigator of all the violence mentioned in the Qur’an and Hadith. Where do you get this crap?

70

No in the early passages they were on the defensive and they were outnumbered (hence messages of restraint and avoiding conflict.) In the later passages they were more powerful hence went on the offensive more.

If you are looking in the Koran for the reason why there is violence in the Middle East that is boiling over into the rest of the world then you are looking in the wrong place and missing the point.

It is not just devout believers that are fighting in Palestine. There are plenty of non-believers and agnostics on both sides of the fence.

71

[quote]No in the early passages they were on the defensive and they were outnumbered (hence messages of restraint and avoiding conflict.) In the later passages they were more powerful hence went on the offensive more.
[/quote]

Yes, that pretty accurately describes the difference between the Meccan and Medinan periods of Qur’anic revelation. Muhammad went on the offensive a.lot. when he had the resources. Just look what happened at Khaibar and to the other non-Muslims around the peninsula. Just look at Surah 9:5, for example.

Why should I believe this? You keep saying this like you’ve got some proof, but I keep hearing jihadists quoting the Qur’an and Hadith and telling the Jews to “Remember Khaibar!”

72

PRCalDude because there was plenty of violence in the Middle East before Islam (just read the old testemant for proof of this.) On a very simplified level there are problems in the Middle East because it is hot and there isn’t much water. This creates an environment where nasty little aggressive religions can take hold.

You seem to see it the other way round though and I just don’t understand why. I guess it may have to do with the fact that you believe in a religion yourself.

Mind you, some of the viewpoints that you espouse don’t seem to line up with the peace and love message of Christianity. Surely you should be advising Israel to turn the other cheek and love their enemy, not supporting them going in with all guns blazing.

73

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
This creates an environment where nasty little aggressive religions can take hold.

[/quote]

Looks like you and PR can at least agree on Islam.

74

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
This creates an environment where nasty little aggressive religions can take hold.

Looks like you and PR can at least agree on Islam.[/quote]

Aparantly not because he sees the religion as the issue. I see it as a symptom. Clearly Mohamed was either mentally ill and believed he was speaking with a non existent god or he was very clever at coming up with ways to motivate a small band of people into winning battles. Possibly a touch of both. But that doesn’t make Christianity any more believable.

75

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
This creates an environment where nasty little aggressive religions can take hold.

Looks like you and PR can at least agree on Islam.

Aparantly not because he sees the religion as the issue. I see it as a symptom. Clearly Mohamed was either mentally ill and believed he was speaking with a non existent god or he was very clever at coming up with ways to motivate a small band of people into winning battles. Possibly a touch of both. But that doesn’t make Christianity any more believable.[/quote]

Oh, I thought you were including Islam in the “nasty little aggressive religions.”

76

I fully was including them.

77

CB. It’s not just the middle east PRCal’s talking about. Pakistan is full of islamic extremists, yet they are not in the middle east.

78

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude because there was plenty of violence in the Middle East before Islam (just read the old testemant for proof of this.) On a very simplified level there are problems in the Middle East because it is hot and there isn’t much water. This creates an environment where nasty little aggressive religions can take hold.

You seem to see it the other way round though and I just don’t understand why. I guess it may have to do with the fact that you believe in a religion yourself.

Mind you, some of the viewpoints that you espouse don’t seem to line up with the peace and love message of Christianity. Surely you should be advising Israel to turn the other cheek and love their enemy, not supporting them going in with all guns blazing.[/quote]

I think you’re confused about Christian theology.

79

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
CB. It’s not just the middle east PRCal’s talking about. Pakistan is full of islamic extremists, yet they are not in the middle east.
[/quote]

and thailand, india, the phillipines, chechnya, the balkans, russia (pretty cold), Britain (pretty cold there), the United States, Canada, Nigeria, Somalia, Indonesia …

80

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
CB. It’s not just the middle east PRCal’s talking about. Pakistan is full of islamic extremists, yet they are not in the middle east.
[/quote]

Pakistan is also hot :wink: and partitioning the country probably didn’t help.