Hmm so are we saying that some fighters have select strikes that they can use for the majority of a fight without tiring, thus allowing them to have more energy and power for the big homerun type moves when the opportunity arises??
[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Hmm so are we saying that some fighters have select strikes that they can use for the majority of a fight without tiring, thus allowing them to have more energy and power for the big homerun type moves when the opportunity arises??[/quote]
I think so…GRANTED that they have the proper timing,range,and accuracy to make those strikes count…like the Diaz bros.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
[quote]SKELAC wrote:
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Damn…I was hoping for some good discussion on this…lol. I guess I haven’t been gone long enough…sigh lol. Nah…I’ve been gone too long. Anybody mentioned efficiency of motion with striking yet? [/quote]
At the level Diaz brothers compete,everybody has efficiency of motion with striking.[/quote]
Oh really?? So no varying degrees of that?? So no fighters are more “efficient” than others?? Does Jiffy taste better than Peter Pan?? After all…at that level,all peanut butter taste the same right?? [/quote]
I meant efficiency of striking at that level is good enough that it doesnt have a huge impact on conditioning.
I’m not sure about Nate, but Nick had a black belt in BJJ under Caesar Gracie. To roll at BJJ you need decent cardio and to get to black belt level is impressive. Also with Nick’s endurance background he can push the pace of fights and stick it to people through several rounds with his excellent boxing. He doesn’t punch at 100%, rather 50% but has a great deal of accuracy with these. Anyone who saw his recent fight with Cowboy saw that it was a master class at boxing. Watch his fight with Paul Daley, amazing fight with pure striking.
Each fighter is different and conditioning is a very passionate affair. Look at Fedor. He carries a great deal of body fat for a professional athlete. His training is very basic, lots of roadwork, push ups, chins, kettlebells etc. Fedor had fantastic conditioning and was one of the best HW in the world easily. He used to destroy people with his aggression, boxing and Sambo.
To summarise, conditioning is very important, but in fighting, it is the actual ability to fight and fight well that will make you a winner in the end. Conditioning will only assist.
To quote Mike Tyson “Everyone’s got a plan until they get punched in the face”
It wasn’t a “masterclass” in boxing lmao
Cerrone just has terrible head movement. Like literally, show me one point in that fight where he actually (or even just attempted to) slipped a punch and didn’t just stand there with a wide open guard waiting for Diaz to pop off.
[quote]JFC1001 wrote:
I’m not sure about Nate, but Nick had a black belt in BJJ under Caesar Gracie. To roll at BJJ you need decent cardio and to get to black belt level is impressive. Also with Nick’s endurance background he can push the pace of fights and stick it to people through several rounds with his excellent boxing. He doesn’t punch at 100%, rather 50% but has a great deal of accuracy with these. Anyone who saw his recent fight with Cowboy saw that it was a master class at boxing. Watch his fight with Paul Daley, amazing fight with pure striking.
Each fighter is different and conditioning is a very passionate affair. Look at Fedor. He carries a great deal of body fat for a professional athlete. His training is very basic, lots of roadwork, push ups, chins, kettlebells etc. Fedor had fantastic conditioning and was one of the best HW in the world easily. He used to destroy people with his aggression, boxing and Sambo.
To summarise, conditioning is very important, but in fighting, it is the actual ability to fight and fight well that will make you a winner in the end. Conditioning will only assist.
To quote Mike Tyson “Everyone’s got a plan until they get punched in the face”[/quote]
one very important point- conditioning makes it possible to put a lot of work in to develop skills and also to do a lot of sparring which is crucial.
[quote]JFC1001 wrote:
I’m not sure about Nate, but Nick had a black belt in BJJ under Caesar Gracie. To roll at BJJ you need decent cardio and to get to black belt level is impressive.[/quote]
Just cause a guy has great grappling endurance doesn’t mean he won’t gas when striking and vice versa. You have to do both to get good at it.
[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
It wasn’t a “masterclass” in boxing lmao
Cerrone just has terrible head movement. Like literally, show me one point in that fight where he actually (or even just attempted to) slipped a punch and didn’t just stand there with a wide open guard waiting for Diaz to pop off.[/quote]
this is what I would label masterclass in boxing.just to put things in perspective
Good Points regarding the striking and the endurance. I have just re-watched some of the fight and there was little head movement from Cowboy. BJJ is far removed from MMA that it does require different conditioning. For example from guard I like to work submissions patiently, I like to do this without the added pressure of being smashed in the face by elbows or fists though.
Regarding gassing from striking I have one name for you “BJ Penn”. Slick jits and crisp boxing but terrible conditioning.
[quote]SKELAC wrote:
this is what I would label masterclass in boxing.just to put things in perspective
[/quote]
If I was going to pick any performance in MMA as representative of an excellent display of boxing, there’s quite a few I’d pick well before either of the Diaz brothers.
Of the top of my head:
GSP vs Koscheck 2: J-A-B. Not the necessarily the most crowd pleasing fight, but GSP put on the best usage of the jab in MMA thus far.
Aldo vs Hominick: Aldo has excellent footwork, there is a gif somewhere of Hominick stalking him to the cage, then lunging in looking to land a 1-2, but Aldo pivots out and angles, leaving Hominick punching air and facing the wrong direction. Aldo also generally, has good head movement.
Masvidal vs KJ Noons: KJ noons outboxed silly by Masvidal. Masvidal with great use of the jab, great timing and good footwork.
Couldn’t help but comment here. Let me start by saying i have no fighting background, so take this for what its worth…There is no such thing as “being in condition”. There is only “Being in condition for a specific task”. A great example of this is when you are “in shape” and then play full court basketball for the first time in a while.
You might be in shape for the gym, but you get winded on the court. Basketball has a very specific conditioning demand. So for any sport, you have to look at the “energy systems” involved in that particular sport. For example, Football basically involves a 3-6 seconds burst of complete chaos, followed by a 30 second break…
So, I would have to wonder why conditioning for football would ever involve running 300 yard shuttle runs, as they did back in my day (and maybe still do??)…Now, again, i don’t fight, but from just looking at the sport, it involves 5 minute rounds, which include periodic bursts of energy throughout. So i just can’t see how running 5 miles would help this?
Why not make your conditioning work something similar to the actual demands of your sport. To me, doing “rounds” of things like flipping a tire, pulling a sled, swinging a sledge-hammer, etc. would be more similar to what actually happens during a round of fighting than running at a sub-maximal pace for a long distance. And to be clear, i’m making broad statements here, not recommending an actual program.
My point is more about the philosophy of what a program should include.
Anyway, that’s my 2 cents. I guess my point is, consider what you actually do in your sport, and be conditioned for that sort of stuff, not running 5k’s.
[quote]eddiealfano wrote:
Couldn’t help but comment here. Let me start by saying i have no fighting background, so take this for what its worth…There is no such thing as “being in condition”. There is only “Being in condition for a specific task”. A great example of this is when you are “in shape” and then play full court basketball for the first time in a while.
You might be in shape for the gym, but you get winded on the court. Basketball has a very specific conditioning demand. So for any sport, you have to look at the “energy systems” involved in that particular sport. For example, Football basically involves a 3-6 seconds burst of complete chaos, followed by a 30 second break…
So, I would have to wonder why conditioning for football would ever involve running 300 yard shuttle runs, as they did back in my day (and maybe still do??)…Now, again, i don’t fight, but from just looking at the sport, it involves 5 minute rounds, which include periodic bursts of energy throughout. So i just can’t see how running 5 miles would help this?
Why not make your conditioning work something similar to the actual demands of your sport. To me, doing “rounds” of things like flipping a tire, pulling a sled, swinging a sledge-hammer, etc. would be more similar to what actually happens during a round of fighting than running at a sub-maximal pace for a long distance. And to be clear, i’m making broad statements here, not recommending an actual program.
My point is more about the philosophy of what a program should include.
Anyway, that’s my 2 cents. I guess my point is, consider what you actually do in your sport, and be conditioned for that sort of stuff, not running 5k’s.[/quote]
I understand what you’re saying, and I can see where you’re coming from, but you’re wrong.
There is a reason that all fighters do long-distance runs nearly every day - and it’s because it works. The difference in the ring when I’m running is immediate and noticeable, and when I’m watching guys in the ring, you can tell IMMEDIATELY who isn’t doing their roadwork.
It may not make logical sense to a lot of guys, and I can’t explain in scientific terms why it’s true, but having been around boxing as much as I have in the past five years, I can tell you with brutal honesty that if you don’t do your roadwork, you will not be fighting very long.
My only argument to this would be that “not doing effective conditioning” would be the problem with these guys, as opposed to “not doing your roadwork”…Roadwork works because its a form of conditioning. Not the best, but its better than not doing it if you’re not doing anything else. BUT, I refuse to believe that somebody couldn’t get in fighting condition without EVER doing roadwork, and rather focusing that time on conditioning relevant to the sport…
But i respect what you are saying, and like i said, I’m not involved in your sport, so what i say means little! That said, we’ve seen a lot of sports (I played football, basketball, and baseball and we did EVERYTHING wrong when i was in high school!) recently change their “old school” way of thinking over the past few decades in terms of conditioning, and it has resulted in advancements in those sports.
Anyway, there’s a lot of great coaches out there like Joe Defranco, Cressey, etc. who I think share my view on this. They know way more about what i’m trying to say, and i’m pretty sure they don’t recommend traditional roadwork anymore…We could go back and forth forever with this, but that time can be better spent in the gym! Best of luck to you!
[quote]eddiealfano wrote:
My only argument to this would be that “not doing effective conditioning” would be the problem with these guys, as opposed to “not doing your roadwork”…Roadwork works because its a form of conditioning. Not the best, but its better than not doing it if you’re not doing anything else. BUT, I refuse to believe that somebody couldn’t get in fighting condition without EVER doing roadwork, and rather focusing that time on conditioning relevant to the sport…
But i respect what you are saying, and like i said, I’m not involved in your sport, so what i say means little! That said, we’ve seen a lot of sports (I played football, basketball, and baseball and we did EVERYTHING wrong when i was in high school!) recently change their “old school” way of thinking over the past few decades in terms of conditioning, and it has resulted in advancements in those sports.
Anyway, there’s a lot of great coaches out there like Joe Defranco, Cressey, etc. who I think share my view on this. They know way more about what i’m trying to say, and i’m pretty sure they don’t recommend traditional roadwork anymore…We could go back and forth forever with this, but that time can be better spent in the gym! Best of luck to you![/quote]
Yea man, and believe me when I say I respect your opinion and I’m not taking this personal.
But I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again - Cressey, DeFranco, Wendler, and all the other dudes people point to for conditioning -
-
Are not fighters
-
Don’t train fighters
As such, their opinion on HOW to train a fighter doesn’t hold water with me. I am a firm believer that you can only know what works in boxing and MMA if you have been there before and done it yourself.
Just like lifting coaches always say “Don’t listen to the 150 lb. weakling for lifting advice”, one might say that we could also say “Don’t listen to the man who’s never fought for fighting advice.”
Again - I’m not directing this at you, but to everyone here who gets a little too wrapped up in lifting and what not (as we might expect they would, being on this site.)
I have to agree with Irish on the roadwork. My personal experience has shown that doing 3-4 mile runs through the week give me a sold foundation on my cardio as well as help me control my weight. Using runs coupled with time in the gym sparring and doing workouts brings me to the level needed to fight hard for 3-5 rounds.
My old coach used to complain to me about my training and he swore i would gas out in a fight, because I was not in there doing the Crossfit copy classes Krav does. What he didn’t know was that I was running two days a week and doing some sprint intervals. I showed up to one of the fitness classes and landed at the top of the board. My body dosen’t like running so much anymore so I started using an eliptical machine where I can use both steady state cardio and do some HIIT by adjusting the resistance as well.
I think that sparring and actually fighting of course is the best medicine but doing steady state cardio like running give you a foundation and the stronger your foundation the stronger you can be explosive.
If you cant run around the block you certainly won’t be able to fight more than one round withoug getting tired so running is a great way to build that foundation.
[quote]Ranzo wrote:
I have to agree with Irish on the roadwork. My personal experience has shown that doing 3-4 mile runs through the week give me a sold foundation on my cardio as well as help me control my weight. Using runs coupled with time in the gym sparring and doing workouts brings me to the level needed to fight hard for 3-5 rounds.
My old coach used to complain to me about my training and he swore i would gas out in a fight, because I was not in there doing the Crossfit copy classes Krav does. What he didn’t know was that I was running two days a week and doing some sprint intervals. I showed up to one of the fitness classes and landed at the top of the board. My body dosen’t like running so much anymore so I started using an eliptical machine where I can use both steady state cardio and do some HIIT by adjusting the resistance as well.
I think that sparring and actually fighting of course is the best medicine but doing steady state cardio like running give you a foundation and the stronger your foundation the stronger you can be explosive.
If you cant run around the block you certainly won’t be able to fight more than one round withoug getting tired so running is a great way to build that foundation.[/quote]
Agreed.
If you went to any boxing coach - and I mean ANY boxing coach - and asked, “I only have the time to do one thing today, what should I do?”
They will tell you “Get your roadwork in.”
You must get it in. It’s that simple.
I too thought like these guys a few years ago - until I started boxing. Then my view changed, because all the complexes in the world aren’t going to help you in ninth round. No fucking way.
Don’t get me wrong, i’m a HUGE fan of running, I’ve just never found that LONG-DISTANCE running did me any good for any sports i’ve played. I do tons of sprints, uphill and regular, and that is the only stuff that i feel has value for the sports i played (and stuff like sled pulling and prowler pushes, etc)…I ran a Marathon back in 2007, and i always joke that was the WORST shape i’ve ever been in. I was good at being slow for an extended period of time. But on the basketball courts, i’d get winded easily, because i was being exposed to a higher intensity that i wasn’t used to (the whole idea of "specific conditioning).
Obviously, fighting has different demands than basketball, but at their core, they are similar sports in that you want to be able to display explosive strength over and over and over (albeit for a long time, but its still strength endurance), as opposed to a constant slow pace throughout…And yeah, maybe the coaches i gave as examples aren’t the best because they don’t work with fighters, but i’m pretty sure there are other guys out there who train fighters with this style of interval training and avoid slow steady stuff. Don’t know enough about the sport to know who they are, but i’d be curious to see what type of training they use. If you guys know any of them, let me know, i’d like to see what they are doing.
[quote]eddiealfano wrote:
Don’t get me wrong, i’m a HUGE fan of running, I’ve just never found that LONG-DISTANCE running did me any good for any sports i’ve played. I do tons of sprints, uphill and regular, and that is the only stuff that i feel has value for the sports i played (and stuff like sled pulling and prowler pushes, etc)…I ran a Marathon back in 2007, and i always joke that was the WORST shape i’ve ever been in. I was good at being slow for an extended period of time. But on the basketball courts, i’d get winded easily, because i was being exposed to a higher intensity that i wasn’t used to (the whole idea of "specific conditioning).
Obviously, fighting has different demands than basketball, but at their core, they are similar sports in that you want to be able to display explosive strength over and over and over (albeit for a long time, but its still strength endurance), as opposed to a constant slow pace throughout…And yeah, maybe the coaches i gave as examples aren’t the best because they don’t work with fighters, but i’m pretty sure there are other guys out there who train fighters with this style of interval training and avoid slow steady stuff. Don’t know enough about the sport to know who they are, but i’d be curious to see what type of training they use. If you guys know any of them, let me know, i’d like to see what they are doing.[/quote]
Look up the routines of the best pro fighters.
At least in boxing, I can utterly assure you that steady state, long distance running has a place in every single fighter’s training.
Mayweather, Pacquaio, DLH, Mosley… all of them put in the miles every morning.
You’re seriously going to be hardpressed finding fighters that don’t.
Crocop lives in my city.He did roadwork around lake Jarun regularly.
Running a Marathon is something totally different. At least for me I usually run a max of 3 miles, I shoot for a better and better time in that three miles. I don’t know any fighter who run 10-20 miles at one time.