Detroit becomes Largest City in US History to File Bankruptcy

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
It only hurts because there are other workers that are not protected that a company can exploit
[/quote]

The Unions only hurts because there are other workers that are not protected that a company can exploit?

What are you saying?[/quote]

The truth
[/quote]

So you admit that Unions hurt the workers that aren’t in the union?[/quote]

No, Unions help workers , even non union workers . I am at present making twice the money that the average in a non union position because I am a employed by a contractor to a union shop .

What I meant was people that work nonunion are subject to less pay and more shit than their union counter parts
[/quote]

Yes, Unions should help workers. In American, they don’t though. My union pushed me out of a job and I had to change industries after my insurance ran out. Union enrollment is down, why? Because unions in America have too much power and they take and take and take until companies can’t keep up with overhead. In the mean time, they push out more and more workers.

Look at Detroit, Union dream. They completely bankrupted the entire city. Not sure how that helped with more pay and less shit. [/quote]

Your theory on unions is absolute bullshit. They do not push themselves out of jobs. This would be against their self-economic preservation and is literally borderline retarded.

Once again the state of Michigan got more sweetheart deals than any other state but is going bankrupt because of the eroded tax base and non-payment of taxes by the corporations that reside in that state. It has nothing to do with unions demanding higher wages and that somehow forced the companies out of business.
[/quote]

SO unions demanding higher wages had no impact on many companies moving manufacturing elsewhere?

142

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Lol. Subsidies =/= tax breaks.

Detroit has a mid-high corporate income tax rates, sales tax, &c.
Michigan has a mid-high corporate income tax rate, sales tax, &c.

Then you have to deal with all the social programs/unions in Detroit. Detroit has been run by Democrats unopposed for 50 years, every socialist program you can think of has been tried there and found lacking and has eventually bankrupted Detroit.[/quote]
How can social programs be paid for when corporations are given such huge tax breaks?[/quote]

The study is not about tax breaks…the study is about subsidies![/quote]
And what is the end result of subsidies?[/quote]

If you have high taxes, high wages (bc of unions), high overhead (bc of unions), and in general high overhead (in order to do business in a communist country) and you get high subsidies…that’s great otherwise you wouldn’t be able to run your business because the overhead is too high, but when that city can no longer pay those high subsidies…your overhead pretty quickly cuts into your margin and you go out of business.

So, you have to look at the whole situation, I am not a fan of subsidies, but I’m not a fan of high taxes either. So, it depends. In the case of Detroit the end result of subsidies was that they weren’t high enough to cover the high overhead it cost to run a business in Detroit because of taxes, union wages, pensions, social cost, &c.

[/quote]
Higher wages creates greater demand and spurs the economy. That is why the economy was so good in the 1950’s. The taxation was the highest on personal taxes and I believe the highest it has ever been on corporations. But yet the economy grew much better than it ever has in this country.

And let’s not forget the burden of healthcare costs on businesses. GM complained that they have to put $1,000 more per vehicle -as opposed to the plant they have in Canada- because of healthcare costs. They complained to the White House. This is the catalyst that started the healthcare debate. You had an elite sector complain about another elite sector. Corporations own and run this country.

High wages only stop owners from taking a larger share it has nothing to do with the survival of the company. Same goes for pensions. Social costs are supported by taxation which large companies pay very little thus the shortfall on social programs. Corporations have no problem taking handouts as long as it benefits them but do not want to pay taxes on profits to help keep others from going into poverty. They only believe in social programs for the rich, which are paid for by the shrinking middle class.

And why do you think the city cannot pay for the subsidies?

143

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
It only hurts because there are other workers that are not protected that a company can exploit
[/quote]

The Unions only hurts because there are other workers that are not protected that a company can exploit?

What are you saying?[/quote]

The truth
[/quote]

So you admit that Unions hurt the workers that aren’t in the union?[/quote]

No, Unions help workers , even non union workers . I am at present making twice the money that the average in a non union position because I am a employed by a contractor to a union shop .

What I meant was people that work nonunion are subject to less pay and more shit than their union counter parts
[/quote]

Yes, Unions should help workers. In American, they don’t though. My union pushed me out of a job and I had to change industries after my insurance ran out. Union enrollment is down, why? Because unions in America have too much power and they take and take and take until companies can’t keep up with overhead. In the mean time, they push out more and more workers.

Look at Detroit, Union dream. They completely bankrupted the entire city. Not sure how that helped with more pay and less shit. [/quote]

Your theory on unions is absolute bullshit. They do not push themselves out of jobs. This would be against their self-economic preservation and is literally borderline retarded.

Once again the state of Michigan got more sweetheart deals than any other state but is going bankrupt because of the eroded tax base and non-payment of taxes by the corporations that reside in that state. It has nothing to do with unions demanding higher wages and that somehow forced the companies out of business.
[/quote]

SO unions demanding higher wages had no impact on many companies moving manufacturing elsewhere?[/quote]

Corporations are incredibly greedy. And if they can pocket more money by moving their plant overseas their attitude is fuck the middle-class Americans. Wow how patriotic! They do not move plants overseas in order to keep the heartbeat of the business alive. They do it to line the pockets of the major share holdders and CEO’s fuck their workers, they are expendable.

144

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Your theory on unions is absolute bullshit. They do not push themselves out of jobs. This would be against their self-economic preservation and is literally borderline retarded.
[/quote]

It is not a theory, it happened to me. Yes, it is retarded, doesn’t stop the greedy teamsters from doing it.[/quote]

If it is demonstrable through evidence and cannot be falsified, then by definition it is a theory. [/quote]

I don’t believe he was being that literal, I think he was meaning that my statement about unions is “your opinion.” Obviously, if he actually meant “theory” he wouldn’t have added “your” or “absolute bullshit,” because it wouldn’t have been mine or absolute bullshit but just a theory and true.

However, getting someone to understand that idea that lacks the ability to understand cause and effect is a far reach, though you are welcome to attempt the feat.

145

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
[/quote]
Higher wages creates greater demand and spurs the economy. That is why the economy was so good in the 1950’s.[/quote]

Yes, but not when it is artificially high.

The economy was so good in Detroit in the 1950’s is because it had been pretty much ran by the GOP from 1880’s until 1960’s. Low regulation, low crime, low taxes, no heavy handed unions, &c. The high wages were a result of a healthy economy, high wages don’t result in a healthy economy…if the economy isn’t healthy it just creates more unemployment…like what happened to me.

146

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Corporations are incredibly greedy. And if they can pocket more money by moving their plant overseas their attitude is fuck the middle-class Americans. Wow how patriotic! They do not move plants overseas in order to keep the heartbeat of the business alive. They do it to line the pockets of the major share holdders and CEO’s fuck their workers, they are expendable.
[/quote]

Class warfare, how communist of you.

147

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
…if the economy isn’t healthy it just creates more unemployment…like what happened to me.

[/quote]

If you don’t mind me asking, what were you doing when you ran into problems with your union and employment?

148

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
…if the economy isn’t healthy it just creates more unemployment…like what happened to me.

[/quote]

If you don’t mind me asking, what were you doing when you ran into problems with your union and employment?
[/quote]

Forklift operator for a grocery store distribution center. It was a secondary level job to put gas in my car and buy my daily allotment of McDoubles and save up for college.

149

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
…if the economy isn’t healthy it just creates more unemployment…like what happened to me.

[/quote]

If you don’t mind me asking, what were you doing when you ran into problems with your union and employment?
[/quote]

Forklift operator for a grocery store distribution center. It was a secondary level job to put gas in my car and buy my daily allotment of McDoubles and save up for college.[/quote]

Actually, it should have been a entry level job, but with the idiot kids they hired/union I had to wait for the job until after my probation period.

150

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Corporations are incredibly greedy. And if they can pocket more money by moving their plant overseas their attitude is fuck the middle-class Americans. Wow how patriotic! They do not move plants overseas in order to keep the heartbeat of the business alive. They do it to line the pockets of the major share holdders and CEO’s fuck their workers, they are expendable.
[/quote]

Class warfare, how communist of you.[/quote]

Yes, fuck the american middle class when they think they deserve outlandish retirement, making 20+ dollars an hour to pull a lever or watch parts go by on a conveyor belt, and for the company to keep making profits. It is just business. Has nothing to do with being patriotic or not.

151

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
It only hurts because there are other workers that are not protected that a company can exploit
[/quote]

The Unions only hurts because there are other workers that are not protected that a company can exploit?

What are you saying?[/quote]

The truth
[/quote]

So you admit that Unions hurt the workers that aren’t in the union?[/quote]

No, Unions help workers , even non union workers . I am at present making twice the money that the average in a non union position because I am a employed by a contractor to a union shop .

What I meant was people that work nonunion are subject to less pay and more shit than their union counter parts
[/quote]

Yes, Unions should help workers. In American, they don’t though. My union pushed me out of a job and I had to change industries after my insurance ran out. Union enrollment is down, why? Because unions in America have too much power and they take and take and take until companies can’t keep up with overhead. In the mean time, they push out more and more workers.

Look at Detroit, Union dream. They completely bankrupted the entire city. Not sure how that helped with more pay and less shit. [/quote]

Your theory on unions is absolute bullshit. They do not push themselves out of jobs. This would be against their self-economic preservation and is literally borderline retarded.[/quote]

One word: Hostess.

Your inability to cogently argue is only matched by your utter inability to see past your own ideology and your subsequent projection on to other people of the flaws your subconscious sees but your ego is too fragile to recognize.[/quote]

Hostess went bankrupt because they could not manage their exsistence , they were the proverbial basket case

152

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Corporations are incredibly greedy. And if they can pocket more money by moving their plant overseas their attitude is fuck the middle-class Americans. Wow how patriotic! They do not move plants overseas in order to keep the heartbeat of the business alive. They do it to line the pockets of the major share holdders and CEO’s fuck their workers, they are expendable.
[/quote]

Class warfare, how communist of you.[/quote]

Yes, fuck the american middle class when they think they deserve outlandish retirement, making 20+ dollars an hour to pull a lever or watch parts go by on a conveyor belt, and for the company to keep making profits. It is just business. Has nothing to do with being patriotic or not. [/quote]

I am not sure if you are for real , but $20 an hour is middle class . If you do not make $20 an hour , you are a chump

153

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Corporations are incredibly greedy. And if they can pocket more money by moving their plant overseas their attitude is fuck the middle-class Americans. Wow how patriotic! They do not move plants overseas in order to keep the heartbeat of the business alive. They do it to line the pockets of the major share holdders and CEO’s fuck their workers, they are expendable.
[/quote]

Class warfare, how communist of you.[/quote]

Yes, fuck the american middle class when they think they deserve outlandish retirement, making 20+ dollars an hour to pull a lever or watch parts go by on a conveyor belt, and for the company to keep making profits. It is just business. Has nothing to do with being patriotic or not. [/quote]
If you don’t make $20/hr. join a union so you can actually live.

I am not sure if you are for real , but $20 an hour is middle class . If you do not make $20 an hour , you are a chump
[/quote]

154

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Corporations are incredibly greedy. And if they can pocket more money by moving their plant overseas their attitude is fuck the middle-class Americans. Wow how patriotic! They do not move plants overseas in order to keep the heartbeat of the business alive. They do it to line the pockets of the major share holdders and CEO’s fuck their workers, they are expendable.
[/quote]

Class warfare, how communist of you.[/quote]

You can guarantee class warfare is being practised anytime a so called conservative brings it up.

155

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Corporations are incredibly greedy. And if they can pocket more money by moving their plant overseas their attitude is fuck the middle-class Americans. Wow how patriotic! They do not move plants overseas in order to keep the heartbeat of the business alive. They do it to line the pockets of the major share holdders and CEO’s fuck their workers, they are expendable.
[/quote]

Class warfare, how communist of you.[/quote]

Yes, fuck the american middle class when they think they deserve outlandish retirement, making 20+ dollars an hour to pull a lever or watch parts go by on a conveyor belt, and for the company to keep making profits. It is just business. Has nothing to do with being patriotic or not. [/quote]

Not sure if cereal.

156

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Corporations are incredibly greedy. And if they can pocket more money by moving their plant overseas their attitude is fuck the middle-class Americans. Wow how patriotic! They do not move plants overseas in order to keep the heartbeat of the business alive. They do it to line the pockets of the major share holdders and CEO’s fuck their workers, they are expendable.
[/quote]

Class warfare, how communist of you.[/quote]

You can guarantee class warfare is being practised anytime a so called conservative brings it up.
[/quote]

Glad I’m not a so called conservative.

157

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Corporations are incredibly greedy. And if they can pocket more money by moving their plant overseas their attitude is fuck the middle-class Americans. Wow how patriotic! They do not move plants overseas in order to keep the heartbeat of the business alive. They do it to line the pockets of the major share holdders and CEO’s fuck their workers, they are expendable.
[/quote]

Class warfare, how communist of you.[/quote]

Yes, fuck the american middle class when they think they deserve outlandish retirement, making 20+ dollars an hour to pull a lever or watch parts go by on a conveyor belt, and for the company to keep making profits. It is just business. Has nothing to do with being patriotic or not. [/quote]

I am not sure if you are for real , but $20 an hour is middle class . If you do not make $20 an hour , you are a chump
[/quote]

It’s relative you clown. $20/hour might allow you to get by in some places, but if you live in an area where Democrats have driven the prices up to pay for such lavish public worker salaries and benefits, you’re fucked without lube.

That is why you are always better off having a lower cost of living, rather than demanding for a higher earning. Your dollar will always go farther when things are cheaper, and you’re not in as bad of a bind if you lose your job, get your hours cut, or get laid off.

My observations from people who left my area due to better job opportunities is that, they live a much better quality of life while making less overall money.

158

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Corporations are incredibly greedy. And if they can pocket more money by moving their plant overseas their attitude is fuck the middle-class Americans. Wow how patriotic! They do not move plants overseas in order to keep the heartbeat of the business alive. They do it to line the pockets of the major share holdders and CEO’s fuck their workers, they are expendable.
[/quote]

Class warfare, how communist of you.[/quote]

Yes, fuck the american middle class when they think they deserve outlandish retirement, making 20+ dollars an hour to pull a lever or watch parts go by on a conveyor belt, and for the company to keep making profits. It is just business. Has nothing to do with being patriotic or not. [/quote]

Not sure if cereal. [/quote]

There is a group in MS trying to push for minimum wage to be raised to 15$ an hour. Up from 7.25.

159

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Corporations are incredibly greedy. And if they can pocket more money by moving their plant overseas their attitude is fuck the middle-class Americans. Wow how patriotic! They do not move plants overseas in order to keep the heartbeat of the business alive. They do it to line the pockets of the major share holdders and CEO’s fuck their workers, they are expendable.
[/quote]

Class warfare, how communist of you.[/quote]

Yes, fuck the american middle class when they think they deserve outlandish retirement, making 20+ dollars an hour to pull a lever or watch parts go by on a conveyor belt, and for the company to keep making profits. It is just business. Has nothing to do with being patriotic or not. [/quote]

Not sure if cereal. [/quote]

There is a group in MS trying to push for minimum wage to be raised to 15$ an hour. Up from 7.25.
[/quote]
1968 was the year where minimum wage had it’s greatest level of purchasing power. Equivalent to $12.50 today. So the country was better off over 40 years ago. It ought to be raised to at least that level.

160

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Corporations are incredibly greedy. And if they can pocket more money by moving their plant overseas their attitude is fuck the middle-class Americans. Wow how patriotic! They do not move plants overseas in order to keep the heartbeat of the business alive. They do it to line the pockets of the major share holdders and CEO’s fuck their workers, they are expendable.
[/quote]

Class warfare, how communist of you.[/quote]

Yes, fuck the american middle class when they think they deserve outlandish retirement, making 20+ dollars an hour to pull a lever or watch parts go by on a conveyor belt, and for the company to keep making profits. It is just business. Has nothing to do with being patriotic or not. [/quote]

Not sure if cereal. [/quote]

There is a group in MS trying to push for minimum wage to be raised to 15$ an hour. Up from 7.25.
[/quote]

Yeah, I’m interested if they can get it done…then I’m going to be interested in seeing how the 50% of workers that get let go are going to feel about their buddy getting $15/hr while they get $0/hr.