[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
Detroit made one thing for 60+ years and did it well. The trickle-down employment kept everyone working even in unskilled jobs. Decimate the car industry and what do they have left? Not much.
For it to happen elsewhere is pretty remote unless something global hits the fan in the meantime.
Rob[/quote]
Same thing happened in Pittsburgh with steel when I was a kid.
Not sure of the political wrangling or whether or not the city declared bankruptcy though.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
It is funny that you blame it all on democratic governments yet the largest recipients of government dollars are the fiscally “fit” red states. Maybe the blue states would be in better shape if they got back more than they put in like Texas.
[/quote]
LOL. Even if that were the case (it’s not because liberals by nature always spend more than they get in revenue) that system is still perpetrated by Washington liberals and would still make it the fault of liberals.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
Detroit made one thing for 60+ years and did it well. The trickle-down employment kept everyone working even in unskilled jobs. Decimate the car industry and what do they have left? Not much.
For it to happen elsewhere is pretty remote unless something global hits the fan in the meantime.
Rob[/quote]
Same thing happened in Pittsburgh with steel when I was a kid.
Not sure of the political wrangling or whether or not the city declared bankruptcy though.
[/quote]
Pittsburgh did not file bankruptcy. They decided to change and make their city more diverse and not reliant on one industry.
Houston had this issue in the early 80’s with Oil. When Oil crashed the city took a huge hit, but they decided to expand the Medical Center and the Financial companies in the city. Now there is a huge diverse amount of companies, and manufacturing has increased in Houston. We also have the Port of Houston, and many others. With Oil doing great right now the city is booming, but if oil decreases in value it will not destroy the city. The median housing price in Houston did not fall from 2008-current.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
It is funny that you blame it all on democratic governments yet the largest recipients of government dollars are the fiscally “fit” red states. Maybe the blue states would be in better shape if they got back more than they put in like Texas.
[/quote]
LOL. Even if that were the case (it’s not because liberals by nature always spend more than they get in revenue) that system is still perpetrated by Washington liberals and would still make it the fault of liberals.[/quote]
So it is Washington Liberals that are diverting money to the red states? I know you are smarter than that.
Not only that you can’t possibly believe that liberals are the only ones in government that overspend. Or maybe you can but I have generally held a higher opinion of your intellect.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
Detroit made one thing for 60+ years and did it well. The trickle-down employment kept everyone working even in unskilled jobs. Decimate the car industry and what do they have left? Not much.
For it to happen elsewhere is pretty remote unless something global hits the fan in the meantime.
Rob[/quote]
First part I completely agree with you. second part…I dunno. yes and no I suppose. the same kind of thing that happened in detroit? not likely. butbbankruptcy? completely–just look at all the cities in California on the verge or already under. it will most likely vary by state of.course[/quote]
I dont think by state, but by city that has a liberal ideology. Blue Cities will be first.[/quote]
It is funny that you blame it all on democratic governments yet the largest recipients of government dollars are the fiscally “fit” red states. Maybe the blue states would be in better shape if they got back more than they put in like Texas.
Detroit certainly is in trouble but they would be in much better shape if they didn’t have huge holes blown in their budget by Snyder.
[/quote]
It is not the government that keeps a city or state solvent. It is the people and industry that keeps the state and local economies afloat. Texas’ economy produceses a lot more money than what our taxes paid do. We use the money given to us (mostly because of the military bases) to shore up the economy and not entitlements. The economy produces jobs, money, tax revenues, and other benefits. Entitlements are a sunk cost.
[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
Detroit made one thing for 60+ years and did it well. [/quote]
No they didn’t. They made a crap product that allowed room for the Japanese to come in and eat their lunch. Nobody on the coasts bought American cars because they were total garbage so their only market was middle America, the Military, taxi cabs, fleets, and the police.
They are just now in a place where they produce a quality product but it took a lot for them to finally get there.
james
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
It is funny that you blame it all on democratic governments yet the largest recipients of government dollars are the fiscally “fit” red states. Maybe the blue states would be in better shape if they got back more than they put in like Texas.
[/quote]
LOL. Even if that were the case (it’s not because liberals by nature always spend more than they get in revenue) that system is still perpetrated by Washington liberals and would still make it the fault of liberals.[/quote]
So it is Washington Liberals that are diverting money to the red states? I know you are smarter than that.
Not only that you can’t possibly believe that liberals are the only ones in government that overspend. Or maybe you can but I have generally held a higher opinion of your intellect.
[/quote]
Not what I said. I said perpetrate the system. And yes, republicans divert as much money as they can to their states, the same way dems do. But, even when they do, it’s a very liberal action to take.
They actually get more money for the simple fact that they have more poor people. Which also means the states and cities have less revenue.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
Detroit made one thing for 60+ years and did it well. The trickle-down employment kept everyone working even in unskilled jobs. Decimate the car industry and what do they have left? Not much.
For it to happen elsewhere is pretty remote unless something global hits the fan in the meantime.
Rob[/quote]
First part I completely agree with you. second part…I dunno. yes and no I suppose. the same kind of thing that happened in detroit? not likely. butbbankruptcy? completely–just look at all the cities in California on the verge or already under. it will most likely vary by state of.course[/quote]
I dont think by state, but by city that has a liberal ideology. Blue Cities will be first.[/quote]
It is funny that you blame it all on democratic governments yet the largest recipients of government dollars are the fiscally “fit” red states. Maybe the blue states would be in better shape if they got back more than they put in like Texas.
Detroit certainly is in trouble but they would be in much better shape if they didn’t have huge holes blown in their budget by Snyder.
[/quote]
It is not the government that keeps a city or state solvent. It is the people and industry that keeps the state and local economies afloat. Texas’ economy produceses a lot more money than what our taxes paid do. We use the money given to us (mostly because of the military bases) to shore up the economy and not entitlements. The economy produces jobs, money, tax revenues, and other benefits. Entitlements are a sunk cost.[/quote]
First off that is pretty presumptuous to think all the tax dollars returned to Michigan are for entitlements. Second a dollar spent on a military base does not produce any more than a dollar that goes into a welfare recipients pocket. They both are pretty much immediately returned into the economy. Do you think welfare recipients are hoarding their checks and food stamps?
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
Detroit made one thing for 60+ years and did it well. [/quote]
No they didn’t. They made a crap product that allowed room for the Japanese to come in and eat their lunch. Nobody on the coasts bought American cars because they were total garbage so their only market was middle America, the Military, taxi cabs, fleets, and the police.
They are just now in a place where they produce a quality product but it took a lot for them to finally get there.
james
[/quote]
Very true.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
Detroit made one thing for 60+ years and did it well. The trickle-down employment kept everyone working even in unskilled jobs. Decimate the car industry and what do they have left? Not much.
For it to happen elsewhere is pretty remote unless something global hits the fan in the meantime.
Rob[/quote]
Same thing happened in Pittsburgh with steel when I was a kid.
Not sure of the political wrangling or whether or not the city declared bankruptcy though.
[/quote]
Pittsburgh did not file bankruptcy. They decided to change and make their city more diverse and not reliant on one industry.
Houston had this issue in the early 80’s with Oil. When Oil crashed the city took a huge hit, but they decided to expand the Medical Center and the Financial companies in the city. Now there is a huge diverse amount of companies, and manufacturing has increased in Houston. We also have the Port of Houston, and many others. With Oil doing great right now the city is booming, but if oil decreases in value it will not destroy the city. The median housing price in Houston did not fall from 2008-current.[/quote]
Housing prices didn’t budge much around here either.
There were a couple other good things happening in Pitt too, like education, medicine and banking.
One thing that attracted new businesses was giving them some huge and long term tax breaks to start doing business here. A couple of mayors have been accused of giving away the city, but it seems to have worked.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
Detroit made one thing for 60+ years and did it well. The trickle-down employment kept everyone working even in unskilled jobs. Decimate the car industry and what do they have left? Not much.
For it to happen elsewhere is pretty remote unless something global hits the fan in the meantime.
Rob[/quote]
First part I completely agree with you. second part…I dunno. yes and no I suppose. the same kind of thing that happened in detroit? not likely. butbbankruptcy? completely–just look at all the cities in California on the verge or already under. it will most likely vary by state of.course[/quote]
I dont think by state, but by city that has a liberal ideology. Blue Cities will be first.[/quote]
It is funny that you blame it all on democratic governments yet the largest recipients of government dollars are the fiscally “fit” red states. Maybe the blue states would be in better shape if they got back more than they put in like Texas.
Detroit certainly is in trouble but they would be in much better shape if they didn’t have huge holes blown in their budget by Snyder.
[/quote]
It is not the government that keeps a city or state solvent. It is the people and industry that keeps the state and local economies afloat. Texas’ economy produceses a lot more money than what our taxes paid do. We use the money given to us (mostly because of the military bases) to shore up the economy and not entitlements. The economy produces jobs, money, tax revenues, and other benefits. Entitlements are a sunk cost.[/quote]
First off that is pretty presumptuous to think all the tax dollars returned to Michigan are for entitlements. Second a dollar spent on a military base does not produce any more than a dollar that goes into a welfare recipients pocket. They both are pretty much immediately returned into the economy. Do you think welfare recipients are hoarding their checks and food stamps?
[/quote]
I never said that Detroit’s tax dollars go to Entitlements. Now most of their dollars are going to pay the interest on their Debt, which is a sunk cost. Most of that debt was incurred to make payments to pensions. People are leaving that city in droves so the money being paid out to pensioners are going to other places than Detroit so it is a sunk cost. There is zero return on their money. Maybe not zero, but you get the point.
Lets look at Detroit’s Economy…Hard Core Pawn…
That report by Nancy Pelosi about $1 in welfare payments increasing once it hits the street to a $1.49 in the economy is crap. You have to make investments. Welfare is not an investment but a liability. Investments continue to pay you when the original $ is gone. Investments are in companies that create jobs. Those jobs stay around for years if not decades and continue to pay you over and over again in perpetuity, if you do not screw it up. Why are jobs abundant here in Texas’…Low taxes, Low regulations, low cost of living, and a right to work state.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
Detroit made one thing for 60+ years and did it well. The trickle-down employment kept everyone working even in unskilled jobs. Decimate the car industry and what do they have left? Not much.
For it to happen elsewhere is pretty remote unless something global hits the fan in the meantime.
Rob[/quote]
Same thing happened in Pittsburgh with steel when I was a kid.
Not sure of the political wrangling or whether or not the city declared bankruptcy though.
[/quote]
Pittsburgh did not file bankruptcy. They decided to change and make their city more diverse and not reliant on one industry.
Houston had this issue in the early 80’s with Oil. When Oil crashed the city took a huge hit, but they decided to expand the Medical Center and the Financial companies in the city. Now there is a huge diverse amount of companies, and manufacturing has increased in Houston. We also have the Port of Houston, and many others. With Oil doing great right now the city is booming, but if oil decreases in value it will not destroy the city. The median housing price in Houston did not fall from 2008-current.[/quote]
Housing prices didn’t budge much around here either.
There were a couple other good things happening in Pitt too, like education, medicine and banking.
One thing that attracted new businesses was giving them some huge and long term tax breaks to start doing business here. A couple of mayors have been accused of giving away the city, but it seems to have worked.
[/quote]
Jobs produce tax revenue. Pittsburgh learned this the hard way. Low taxes and low regulations make companies want to do business there. That increases jobs, and the tax revenue. Texas has done this forever, and hopefully they will continue to do it. Hopefully the Federal Government will learn this, but it just seems to not happen. The US has the highest corporate tax rate on the planet. You want companies to move the jobs back here that would be the first place to start.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
Detroit made one thing for 60+ years and did it well. The trickle-down employment kept everyone working even in unskilled jobs. Decimate the car industry and what do they have left? Not much.
For it to happen elsewhere is pretty remote unless something global hits the fan in the meantime.
Rob[/quote]
First part I completely agree with you. second part…I dunno. yes and no I suppose. the same kind of thing that happened in detroit? not likely. butbbankruptcy? completely–just look at all the cities in California on the verge or already under. it will most likely vary by state of.course[/quote]
I dont think by state, but by city that has a liberal ideology. Blue Cities will be first.[/quote]
It is funny that you blame it all on democratic governments yet the largest recipients of government dollars are the fiscally “fit” red states. Maybe the blue states would be in better shape if they got back more than they put in like Texas.
Detroit certainly is in trouble but they would be in much better shape if they didn’t have huge holes blown in their budget by Snyder.
[/quote]
It is not the government that keeps a city or state solvent. It is the people and industry that keeps the state and local economies afloat. Texas’ economy produceses a lot more money than what our taxes paid do. We use the money given to us (mostly because of the military bases) to shore up the economy and not entitlements. The economy produces jobs, money, tax revenues, and other benefits. Entitlements are a sunk cost.[/quote]
First off that is pretty presumptuous to think all the tax dollars returned to Michigan are for entitlements. Second a dollar spent on a military base does not produce any more than a dollar that goes into a welfare recipients pocket. They both are pretty much immediately returned into the economy. Do you think welfare recipients are hoarding their checks and food stamps?
[/quote]
I never said that Detroit’s tax dollars go to Entitlements. Now most of their dollars are going to pay the interest on their Debt, which is a sunk cost. Most of that debt was incurred to make payments to pensions. People are leaving that city in droves so the money being paid out to pensioners are going to other places than Detroit so it is a sunk cost. There is zero return on their money. Maybe not zero, but you get the point.
Lets look at Detroit’s Economy…Hard Core Pawn…
That report by Nancy Pelosi about $1 in welfare payments increasing once it hits the street to a $1.49 in the economy is crap. You have to make investments. Welfare is not an investment but a liability. Investments continue to pay you when the original $ is gone. Investments are in companies that create jobs. Those jobs stay around for years if not decades and continue to pay you over and over again in perpetuity, if you do not screw it up. Why are jobs abundant here in Texas’…Low taxes, Low regulations, low cost of living, and a right to work state.
[/quote]
That is pure speculation about the pension dollars leaving. Detroit hasn’t shrunk much in recent years, the flight has happened gradually over decades.
I agree that is a big part of the burden, and pensions are going away. However, do you believe it is fair to tell someone “if you work for such and such amount, you will make this much to live on after retirement” then renege on that promise?
As far as this investment you are talking about do you mean military bases? That is just another form of entitlement. How is Texas handling their money better just because they can keep bases open and Michigan can’t?
I don’t think it’s fair to simply blame the pensions. Detroit spent decades rolling out crap products that didn’t sell. The role of the corporation and the management team is to help create a product that would sell. They totally failed at that bit. Additionally it’s their job to figure out how to become profitable and how to maintain that profitability despite high labor costs. They should have figured out their labor issues decades ago. If they couldn’t work compatibly with them then they should have moved to Kentucky or Texas long ago and forced the hand of the union leadership to play nicely.
But that’s all shoulda and coulda at this point.
james
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
I don’t think it’s fair to simply blame the pensions. Detroit spent decades rolling out crap products that didn’t sell. The role of the corporation and the management team is to help create a product that would sell. They totally failed at that bit. Additionally it’s their job to figure out how to become profitable and how to maintain that profitability despite high labor costs. They should have figured out their labor issues decades ago. If they couldn’t work compatibly with them then they should have moved to Kentucky or Texas long ago and forced the hand of the union leadership to play nicely.
But that’s all shoulda and coulda at this point.
james[/quote]
It may also be automotive, but if I understand it, the underfunded pensions are those of municipal workers- Police, Firefighters, Maintenance, and the like.
That points more towards frivolous mismanagement of tax dollars by the elected officials and their support staff than anything else.
It may also be overly generous pension benefits or legacy costs, which drain the coffers way faster than they can be filled.
I agree and I should not have focused solely on the auto industry.
We have that same exact problem here too with overly generous public pensions. But I think that problem is fairly common is it not?
james
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
I don’t think it’s fair to simply blame the pensions. Detroit spent decades rolling out crap products that didn’t sell. The role of the corporation and the management team is to help create a product that would sell. They totally failed at that bit. Additionally it’s their job to figure out how to become profitable and how to maintain that profitability despite high labor costs. They should have figured out their labor issues decades ago. If they couldn’t work compatibly with them then they should have moved to Kentucky or Texas long ago and forced the hand of the union leadership to play nicely.
But that’s all shoulda and coulda at this point.
james[/quote]
I agree with the crap product.
The pensions were underfunded and the city took out like $8-9 billion in bonds to try and catch them up. They are still underfunded and there is no end in site. Pensions was a large amount, but there are a lot of things going on that has brought this to a head, and it is about to pop.
These pensions are not Auto Corporation related. They are for City workers.
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
I agree and I should not have focused solely on the auto industry.
We have that same exact problem here too with overly generous public pensions. But I think that problem is fairly common is it not?
james[/quote]
Right now it seems to fall the hardest right now in California, NY, and Illinois. There is one city here in Texas that is having issues, but it is a small town I have never heard of up near Dallas.
I think the answer is that the pensions simply aren’t going to get funded. I think that in the end the workers are just going to be SOL on that. I don’t see any other good solution. That is unless the Fed steps in and funds them which is not totally out of the question with our current White House residents.
Every solution costs money. I’ve heard things like consolidating the city since there’s open blocks all over but that means relocating folks and paying for that land. I just don’t see that happening anytime. Hell, I’m half tempted to buy a handful of $500 houses just to own them. It’s like playing monopoly at this point.
james
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
I agree and I should not have focused solely on the auto industry.
We have that same exact problem here too with overly generous public pensions. But I think that problem is fairly common is it not?
james[/quote]
Yeah. It happens with virtually all of the “good jobs”, Teaching, Police, Fire, etc. Pennsylvania’s teachers state “legacy” costs have finally surpassed the actual budget for teachers currently working too. Shouldn’t be too much longer before that system goes bust, and Pittsburghs police and fire pensions have already been handed over to some kind of process carried out at the state level (can’t remember what that is at this point). Not bankruptcy, but a step or two prior.