Design a Program Experiment

Training
21

What do you guys think about setting up a person with a ONE year plan? Maybe this is how my paper should be/talk about more than the programming itself.

The progression would follow as this:

Months 1-3: Work on mobility, movement patterns, BW training, building a base of cardio, technique work with JUST the barbell. Get out and play some sports! NO weight gets added to bar during this period. At end of this period average person should be able to do a perfect overhead squat with a broomstick. Stretching standards as being able to touch toes with a straight back, etc.

Months 4-6: Keep working on mobility but now can add some basic movements. NO PRESSING during this period to fix postural issues. All pulls and squats.

Months 7-9: Now can jump into a program since mobility and posture should be corrected. You can add in pressing.

Months 10-12: Continue on same path as months 7-9 or can now including some Power/Oly movements if you want to. Strength levels should be pretty good at this time.

22

I’d want to setup my paper with the following sections:

The IT Crowd - Why their bodies are breaking down
Postural balance and why it’s important
Mobility and flexibility why they are important
Exercise selection and reasons behind them
Rep/set schemes explanation to the beginner since you are going to ask anyway
Typical weaknesses the IT guy has (obviously they are weak everywhere lol)
Diet is the maker or breaker
Consistency
Logging your workouts
Long term health
STOP over-analyzing
The ONE year plan
The actual Workout Program

23

[quote]isdatnutty wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]isdatnutty wrote:
But I guess it’s more about giving them a standard to hit so they feel good about themselves and they have good relative strength. I think these would be good standards for anyone:

3x5 225 Squat
1x5 315 DL
3x5 135 OHP
10 Strict Pull Ups

Now these are not crazy numbers at all. But if the average IT guy has these numbers, THEY WILL BE HAPPY! Plus it’s pretty decent relative strength.
[/quote]

In my opinion, these strength standards are not well-balanced. The squat is way too low relative to the other lifts, and overall it is weighted toward upper body strength.

There will be some variation across the genetic spectrum but I’d say most healthy adult males can hit a 225x5 squat in 3 months of training, 6 months at the most. 135 3x5 OHP will take a lot of people 1-2 years or longer. Same with Deadlift 315x5. Pullups are dependent on BW but there are a lot of guys lifting for years who can’t do 10 strict.
[/quote]

What would you say are more balanced strength standards for an absolute average across all spectrums? Btw, I meant a 225 3x5 Front Squat, not a BS.

Like I said, I’m not a trainer and never will be and I knew I would be a bit over my head using this topic as a project, but I feel I’d learn a lot by the end of it as well.

This is good though. It’s getting everyone involved and talking. This will do wonders for my research and final paper!
[/quote]

Stolen directly from the Dave Tate article Punisher linked above, for the big lifts:

Bench Press 1.5x BW
Squat 2x BW
Deadlift 2.5x BW

There’s also the old 200/300/400/500 lbs (OHP/Bench/Squat/Deadlift), which you can modify down to 175/275/400/500 to be a little more reasonable.

Jim Wendler also has standards for all the following, which could be good to incorporate for all-around fitness:

Chin-ups/Pull-ups
300 yard shuttle
Prowler
1 mile run
Air Dyne
Box Jump
Standing Long Jump

24

[quote]isdatnutty wrote:
What do you guys think about setting up a person with a ONE year plan? Maybe this is how my paper should be/talk about more than the programming itself.

The progression would follow as this:

Months 1-3: Work on mobility, movement patterns, BW training, building a base of cardio, technique work with JUST the barbell. Get out and play some sports! NO weight gets added to bar during this period. At end of this period average person should be able to do a perfect overhead squat with a broomstick. Stretching standards as being able to touch toes with a straight back, etc.

Months 4-6: Keep working on mobility but now can add some basic movements. NO PRESSING during this period to fix postural issues. All pulls and squats.

Months 7-9: Now can jump into a program since mobility and posture should be corrected. You can add in pressing.

Months 10-12: Continue on same path as months 7-9 or can now including some Power/Oly movements if you want to. Strength levels should be pretty good at this time. [/quote]

People will only start and stick with the plan if they’re motivated. If there is no incentive to work hard then people will normally quit. It’s difficult to build technique from ground zero with just the bar. It’s actually easier when they have some sense of awareness of how to use their muscles. Failure helps with learning and the degree of failure is important. Failure that doesn’t cause damage can be a learning experience. Sometimes a person can get injured so you have to consider risk vs reward for such rapid progress. If a person stays far from failure, it may be difficult to adapt and progress as quickly, assuming they can overcome plateaus. How would you know that doing hundreds of squats with a bar has taught a person to create full body tension? Having a clear direction and guidance can help reduce risk. But I don’t think telling someone to do movements just to do them will produce the highest success rate.

It seems like there’s an assumption made that lifting by oneself for 1-3 months will automatically make a person technically proficient in lifting. I find that hard to believe especially for a person with no athletic background. The person has to learn how to activate all stabilization muscles during a movement and that can be difficult if they don’t know exactly how to do that or have some type of feedback. IMO, mobility, stability and technique can all improve together if the person knows what they’re doing. That’s why a coach can reduce the learning curve so fast because they typically provide feedback for most of the sessions. The question should then be how can you emulate this environment and replicate the results without the same resources.

Another thing to consider, what should the person do if they can’t even do a single pushup or pullup?

You’ll also have to define what a perfect repetition is because that is open to interpretation.

25

[quote]lift206 wrote:
People will only start and stick with the plan if they’re motivated. If there is no incentive to work hard then people will normally quit. It’s difficult to build technique from ground zero with just the bar. It’s actually easier when they have some sense of awareness of how to use their muscles. Failure helps with learning and the degree of failure is important. Failure that doesn’t cause damage can be a learning experience. Sometimes a person can get injured so you have to consider risk vs reward for such rapid progress. If a person stays far from failure, it may be difficult to adapt and progress as quickly, assuming they can overcome plateaus. How would you know that doing hundreds of squats with a bar has taught a person to create full body tension? Having a clear direction and guidance can help reduce risk. But I don’t think telling some to do movements just to do them will produce the highest success rate.

It seems like there’s an assumption made that lifting by oneself for 1-3 months will automatically make a person technically proficient in lifting. I find that hard to believe especially for a person with no athletic background. The person has to learn how to activate all stabilization muscles during a movement and that can be difficult if they don’t know exactly how to do that or have some type of feedback. IMO, mobility, stability and technique can all improve together if the person knows what they’re doing. That’s why a coach can reduce the learning curve so fast because they typically provide feedback for most of the sessions. The question should then be how can you emulate this environment and replicate the results without the same resources.
[/quote]

Your post hit the nail right on the head. “The question should then be how can you emulate this environment and replicate the results without the same resources.” is the exact question I want this paper to answer.

26

[quote]isdatnutty wrote:
STOP over-analyzing
[/quote]

I do not feel like you can unironically include this section with all the others.

27

Lol at trying to program for desk jockeys without even mentioning correcting the major problems with desk posture.

You get desk jockeys to sprint and play sports without getting them fit enough to run, and you’re gonna have some IT guys pissed off at you for wrecking their backs. Hip flexor tightness is a major issue, and if you don’t address it, it WILL manifest as a lower back injury. Rounded shoulders are another big issue, and I see you’re choosing to focus more on bench press and OHP rather than rowing variations or trapezius strength.

You have to stretch the hip flexors and strengthen the abs so they can actually extend their hips fully without tilting the pelvis forward. You also have to strengthen their upper backs and stretch their pecs (major and minor) to get their shoulders in the proper position, not to mention assessing and addressing internal and external rotation deficiencies.

If you go about this half-assed, you’re going to hurt someone.

28

Why are you using strength standards as a goal if someone is looking for bodycomp? They are just a gauge of effort in the gym and often more of a display of technical profiency than actual “strength”.

29

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
There is no such thing as an overhead farmer’s walk.[/quote]

Oh yeah? Wait till the next wannabe guru starts promoting his new functional training for bodybuilding method lol.

30

After reading everyone’s response, I think this topic may be way over my head currently. There are too many variables that I wasn’t even thinking of when suggesting this research paper. The idea sounded great though lol. This is definetely not a paper I can write in 3 months that would have lots of good accurate information.

Maybe I should just pick a more specific topic such as “fixing the IT desk jockey posture”.

31

Postural problems are FAR more complex than this.

Lifting weights and getting swole is easy. People without formal educations during the pre-internet era were doing it. You just need to define goals accordingly and provide proper rationales for methods used to achieve them. The problem is, you are currently micro managing. You don’t do that when you come up with a business plan. You design from top down, not bottom up.

32

[quote]isdatnutty wrote:
After reading everyone’s response, I think this topic may be way over my head currently. There are too many variables that I wasn’t even thinking of when suggesting this research paper. The idea sounded great though lol. This is definetely not a paper I can write in 3 months that would have lots of good accurate information.

Maybe I should just pick a more specific topic such as “fixing the IT desk jockey posture”. [/quote]

I think it would be easier to develop a training plan based on training AROUND the limitations brought about by the mythical desk jockey posture.

33

[quote]dt79 wrote:
Postural problems are FAR more complex than this.

Lifting weights and getting swole is easy. People without formal educations during the pre-internet era were doing it. You just need to define goals accordingly and provide proper rationales for methods used to achieve them. The problem is, you are currently micro managing. You don’t do that when you come up with a business plan. You design from top down, not bottom up.[/quote]

You are right man. Always have to go back to the basics to clear my head up! I was trying to tackle too many issues with one solution and that’s never going to fly.

This is my first class in graduate school lol. Guess I need to think like a business man and fellow weight lifter and less like a mad scientist.

I appreciate everyone’s feedback. I’ll rethink my proposed research paper and come back with a more defined strategy with reasoning behind it to get some feedback on.

34

I can’t believe you’re in graduate school. You sound so completely flighty. I would have assumed this was for a 101 undergrad class if you hadn’t clarified that fact. It doesn’t seem like you’re giving any of this the attention to detail it deserves.

Also, the fact that your strength standards are based on 45 lbs plates is pretty damn arbitrary, isn’t it? Why would our natural strength inclinations even be based on that? It really seems like you’re trying to bullshit your way through this.

As a side note, I can’t really figure out what your goals with the programming are. My initial impression was that you were trying to accommodate the wishes of the IT guy, so I figured it would make sense for the programming to be more upper body focused. People who aren’t interested in strength sports don’t give a real shit about legs past an intermediate level.

But when a few guys in this thread said ‘this is unbalanced, you need more legs!!!’ you basically agreed, and asked what would be a better balance. Which means you no longer care about the IT guy’s goals. I don’t know man, I feel like your approach is so far off if this is truly being done for a graduate course.

35

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I can’t believe you’re in graduate school. You sound so completely flighty. I would have assumed this was for a 101 undergrad class if you hadn’t clarified that fact. It doesn’t seem like you’re giving any of this the attention to detail it deserves.

Also, the fact that your strength standards are based on 45 lbs plates is pretty damn arbitrary, isn’t it? Why would our natural strength inclinations even be based on that? It really seems like you’re trying to bullshit your way through this.

As a side note, I can’t really figure out what your goals with the programming are. My initial impression was that you were trying to accommodate the wishes of the IT guy, so I figured it would make sense for the programming to be more upper body focused. People who aren’t interested in strength sports don’t give a real shit about legs past an intermediate level.

But when a few guys in this thread said ‘this is unbalanced, you need more legs!!!’ you basically agreed, and asked what would be a better balance. Which means you no longer care about the IT guy’s goals. I don’t know man, I feel like your approach is so far off if this is truly being done for a graduate course.[/quote]

Hey man thanks for the response. In all honesty I jumped into this topic before giving it any REAL thought. The idea in my head sounded good and then posted it here without thinking it through. So I know it looks like a bunch of shit that goes from A to Z. I had no defined goals besides helping the typical IT guy. But then I wanted to turn them into an athlete. I fell into the trap of trying to do too much at once. I’m thinking this whole thing through currently and am formulating a much more educated and appropriate way to go about this.

36

[quote]isdatnutty wrote:

  1. I knew when putting this list of exercises together I would have to remove a bunch of them. That’s why in the OP I listed everything out there. My goal is by end of this thread to have a much more “streamlined” version of what is listed. More of the typical 3x5 for 3 big compound exercises, 2 assistance, and abs at the end.

  2. I can understand the OHP with the bb being an issue with this. But to me OHP can also mean neutral grip with dbs. But I understand where you are coming from. It took me 2 months before I could OHP properly. But I think at light weights, OHP can help with mobility as well. But why no chin-ups?

  3. For abs I would let it be specific to that person, but I think for most people the ab wheel + planks is the way to go since FS and all the other compounds will hit the abs hard if done right. Like for me personally, After I do deadlifts and front squats my abs are sore as hell.

  4. I don’t think this would be a superior program compared to the others. But I think this program could set up a good base to move into those other programs. I think for a non-trained person to just jump into SS or SL is a recipe for disaster. Not saying it happens to everyone, but it happens more than not.

I guess to clear up everything, this program/paper I’m writing is supposed to geared toward the typical IT demographic. I think for how long a lot of these people have been inactive and sitting, they need a different approach so they don’t hurt themselves. And usually these guys don’t care about how much they squat, etc. Plus I’m trying to get an A+ on this paper lol.[/quote]

  1. I feel like you misinterpreted what I meant in my original comment. I don’t understand this as a response.

  2. Even with a neutral grip and DB, very few untrained, deconditioned people can get overhead well. If you’re lacking full shoulder flexion or anterior core control, the implements and hand position won’t fix that and you’ll still need to compensate to get overhead. This is true for any exercises that require full or nearly full shoulder flexion – pressing and pulling alike. There is also the issue of overdevelopment of the lats relative to low traps, mid traps, and rhomboids that can occur with improper vertical pulling by novice trainees. Given that the lats act as internal rotators of the shoulders AND potential extensors of the lumbar spine, this can be especially problematic for someone who presents with an extension posture and internally rotated shoulders, as I suspect the population you’re writing for dose.

  3. Putting someone on an ab wheel on their first day in the gym is a bad idea, and they’re probably not going to have the motor control and strength to do it right. I think you’re going in the right direction with anti-extension exercises but you need to have some sort of progression built in. I’d start with some basic ground based supine anti-extension work and build up from there.

  4. I agree that people with no athletic background or training experience are going to have a very hard time jumping into barbell squatting, benching, and deadlifting day 1 and that they could benefit from a few months of introductory programing that addresses common weaknesses and (I’ve grown to hate this word) imbalances while working on muscular endurance, coordination, work capacity, tendon and connective tissue strength, etc. I just don’t see how the program you have presented is much different from the options out there. “More of the typical 3x5 for 3 big compound exercises, 2 assistance, and abs at the end” is probably not what they need at all.

37

What class is this being written for and what degree are you pursuing?

38

[quote]TrevorLPT wrote:
What class is this being written for and what degree are you pursuing? [/quote]

I’m pursuing a masters in MIS (Management Information Systems). Already have my BA with a focus in MIS.

It’s a research project class. Typically students take this class towards the end of their time, but I decided to knock out the one with the most writing first. Our individual goal is to present a topic that effects the modern world of information systems. Now I could do the typical systems analysis, company IT infrastructure, the future of cloud computing, or even why companies should virtualize their entire environment.

But, I argued with my professor that I feel one of the big issues that plagues the IT community as a whole is the destruction of the human body from sitting all day hunched over. Most people work 30+ years in this field literally sitting down 8+ hours a day. Add on top of that bad eating habits and not keeping yourself healthy by playing something or working out, that’s a recipe for disaster. I feel for anybody that your body should be your #1 priority in life. If you don’t have good health, your not going to have much else as time passes.

So he agreed to let me use this topic because he even has all sorts of issues that he believes stems from his 20 years of sitting at a computer all day.

39

[quote]isdatnutty wrote:

[quote]TrevorLPT wrote:
What class is this being written for and what degree are you pursuing? [/quote]

I’m pursuing a masters in MIS (Management Information Systems). Already have my BA with a focus in MIS.

It’s a research project class. Typically students take this class towards the end of their time, but I decided to knock out the one with the most writing first. Our individual goal is to present a topic that effects the modern world of information systems. Now I could do the typical systems analysis, company IT infrastructure, the future of cloud computing, or even why companies should virtualize their entire environment.

But, I argued with my professor that I feel one of the big issues that plagues the IT community as a whole is the destruction of the human body from sitting all day hunched over. Most people work 30+ years in this field literally sitting down 8+ hours a day. Add on top of that bad eating habits and not keeping yourself healthy by playing something or working out, that’s a recipe for disaster. I feel for anybody that your body should be your #1 priority in life. If you don’t have good health, your not going to have much else as time passes.

So he agreed to let me use this topic because he even has all sorts of issues that he believes stems from his 20 years of sitting at a computer all day.

[/quote]

I agree with your perspective on all of this. However, writing a program to address these issues might fall outside of your area of expertise. Something like advocating a few stretches and simple lifestyle tips like “stand up and walk around every 20 minutes” would be useful to the population you’re talking about, but it would hardly be enough for a research paper.

On the other hand, a full program that addresses multiple postural and biomechanical issues while simultaneously improving strength and athletic ability would likely require a level of knowledge about anatomy and exercise physiology that you might not have – simply because that isn’t your field of study.

It would be like a physical therapist or strength coach going online and asking a forum how to program some complicated piece of software that no one else has been able to design before. It just might be outside of that person’s reach for the time being.

40

[quote]isdatnutty wrote:

[quote]TrevorLPT wrote:
What class is this being written for and what degree are you pursuing? [/quote]

I’m pursuing a masters in MIS (Management Information Systems). Already have my BA with a focus in MIS.

[/quote]

This makes more sense to me now.