[quote]ALDurr wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
I never said that it didn’t have some politics involved with it. What I said was that it involves more than JUST politics. No matter how many times we talk about this, you will not understand completely because you are not part of the community, period. This is not a slam on you, its just a fact.
That’s true. Perhaps that’s why we are having this conversation so I can understand how it is in your community better.
I would never completely understand the Latin, Asian, Indian and Middle Eastern communities and their unique takes on things enough to tell them how things are for them. If someone from those communities tried to tell me how things were for them in this country, I’m not going to try to tell them how things really are for their community when I am not a part of it. I understand that each community has its own dynamics and I accept certain things from them as being true for them from their experiences. The understanding of the dynamic range of people never seems to extend to the black community from outsiders. Outsiders want to wrap us in their neat little categories and make everything a simple explanation for how we are.
Perhaps that is because the Black community has been in the US much longer than many other immigrant cultures.
This is a gross simplification of an entire group of people. It also illustrates your lack of understanding the black community. For your information, the black community has survived DESPITE the government, not because of it.
Then you are saying that GOVERNMENT programs like Affirmative Action did not help the Blacks?
You can’t say that Blacks survived in spite of the Government and then turn around and say a Government program like AA helps the Blacks. Make up your mind.
The history of the black community is one of surviving outside the government and taxes. If you knew so much about the black community as you try to seem, you would’ve understood that.
Then why is a larger percentage of Blacks than other races taking advantage of the Government program of welfare if they are surviving outside Government and taxes?
Excuse me? Aren’t you the one that constantly likes to tell me about all of the minorities that had achieved long before civil rights? This whole part of your post contradicts many of the things that you’ve said previously.
No I stated I agree with you in that there were those minorities that did succeed before civil rights, but many more after. So civil rights did help a lot. But, I think without those pioneers who did show others the way to succeed the system would not have changed, or changed as quickly to support civil rights. So it was really the pioneers who made it better for others, not civil rights.
Do you believe that financially well off minorities is a recent (last 30-40 years) phenomenon? We’ve had them long before civil rights and they have managed to protect their money without hurting their communities.
True! And is is Also true that some of these minorities succeeded before civil rights by owning slaves themselves, and yes some of these rich minorities were Black slave owners. So no one is without blame here.
The phenomenon that is going on now is that some of these minorities have, in order to protect their wealth, gone out of their way to cause harm to the communities that they came from. They have turned their backs on them and have tried to act like they don’t exist.
For example, people were pissed off at Bill Cosby (an admittedly conservative black man) for what he has said in the media about the poor black community. However, there is no lingering hatred from the black community for Bill Cosby. The community may not be completely happy about what he said, but their is no real complete hatred of him either. Why? Because he has never forgotten where he came from. He has constantly reached back and tried to help the community. He has never severed ties. Now, let’s take another case, Clarence Thomas. There is a serious, lingering hatred for the man from the black community that has gone on for many years.
Why? Because this man completely turned his back on the community to serve his white conservative party. He has never reached back to help his community and has gone out of his way to go against any type of legislation that would even remotely help minorities and women. You can argue that what he did was for the greater good, but there have been other conservatives that couldn’t understand his actions either, much less anybody who is not conservative.
What I am saying is that their are some black conservatives that go out of their way to prove their loyalty to their political party at the expense of their community. You will never see that because you are outside the community and it won’t be obvious to you.
Do you have an example of this? In my estimation it seems as if it is a difference of philosophy. For example, some feel that welfare is being used as a means to keep minorities from achieving. Others see it as helping minorities. For example, in talking about this issue, Walter Williams stated “I think Black people are great, everybody should own one”. He said this to emphasis his belief that welfare was preventing Blacks from achieving in main stream society.
And that the current system was designed to keep people in it by rewarding failure and punishing success, or attempts at success. Meaning, in many cases it is more financially beneficial to not work and get welfare than to work. So many blacks feel trapped in the system because of this. So perhaps it’s just an issue of approach to help Blacks, not that he doesn’t want to help them at all?
What world do you operate in that you believe that race is not tied into the culture?
I Can see you have never been to other countries. Let me tell you a story. This friend of mine from college is a Black guy from England. He has the British accent and everything. We went to a movie together in a mostly black part of town. As is the custom in the black community, they are very vocal in church and in the movies; meaning that they make laud comments about what is going on in the movie. I actually go to a mostly black church, so I’m comfortable with this and even enjoy it. Anyway, this friend of mine looked so uncomfortable by that and stated he didn’t understand why they were making so much noise.
So a black guy (race) did not fit in to the US black culture. That is why it IS culture and NOT race!
The culture that you are referring to is based on the race of the largest group. It is impossible to separate the two. This was the point of the whole article. The privileges that the largest group enjoys and their ability to deny that they even exist. Please keep up.
I understand that and I was disagreeing with it. Looking at other countries where whites are the minority and how the system is NOT bent towards them will show that the premise behind the article is flawed. For example, in Japan there is historically a racial group that are white (or look white and not Japanese), they are the minority and are mostly farmers and laborers. They make less money and are considered lower class than those that look Japanese. (Don’t believe me, look it up in a Japanese history book).
So the point is that the race or look of a person doesn’t count if they are the minority. Regardless of race the system is slanted to the majority!
Why is it that when a black person asserts pride and caring about their community its considered “forcing their culture of origin down others throats”? Every other race in this country can do this and its considered a positive thing, but when black people do it, its always negative.
I never stated that. Asserting one’s culture would mean showing up to a business meeting in a long African robe with dread-locks, not just having pride in your race or culture. It’s about what is and isn’t acceptable for any race to do in this culture. No one thinks its racists if a white guy gets sent home for showing up to work in an Irish Kilt, but it’s racists when a black guy gets sent home for wearing an African robe!
This is an example of the PC inequities of the current system. The same rules should apply to all.
You put so many generalizations about the black community in your post that it really illustrated your lack of knowledge on the subject. You really need to stop trying to sound so smug and superior with your posts.
Sorry, I didn’t realise I was coming across smugly.
Explaining to me how the world works, when you have no clue about how old I am or what experiences I have, and then peppering your posts with gross simplifications and generalizations just to attempt to prove your point does not make you look very good at all. If you are looking for a real discourse on the topic, you need to educate yourself on the subject first.
Just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean I’m not educated in the subject. There happen to be many blacks that disagree with you also. Are they also misinformed? Sorry, but the only informed position is not just yours.
So I have this discourse with you to learn your opinion, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to accept it.
You can play the game of the majority without sacrificing and denying who you are.
True. But what is wrong with a black guy who just likes country music more than rap? Likes race cars more than basketball? You are forcing blacks to accept certain “traditional” view and activities as a means of proving their pride in their race. Why can’t people just be who they want to be regardless of what their racial community thinks?
Many blacks have done it on both sides of the political spectrum. Also, you can play the game of the majority without going out of your way to hurt your community. Its called having integrity. It is a much harder road and there are those in the black community that always want to do things the easy way. These are the ones that get called out.
What if they are actually trying to help the community, just not in a way that the community understands?
I don’t have time right now to fully respond to your post. However, I do want to point out that, once again, you’ve contradicted yourself, twisted my words, added information that has no relevance to the topic at hand, added your “why can’t we all be who we are and just get along” colorblind society philosophy phrase and basically demonstrated your lack of knowledge of the topic. I will return later to address each of these things one by one.[/quote]
Al, If you are going to quote me, don’t change the meaning and add your own words. It makes you look dishonest and manipulative.
Here is what I stated: “Why can’t people just be who they want to be regardless of what their racial community thinks?”