[quote]forlife wrote:<<< They have ZERO role in all of this, except to celebrate the fact that God has chosen them over others. >>>[/quote] Praise the name of the Lord he CAN be taught =][quote]forlife wrote: They are PUPPETS, in the surest sense of the word. >>>[/quote]Taught, but not resurrected apart from the boundless foreordained mercy of God Himself. There goes that idolatrous worship of finite fallen sinful human intellect again [quote]forlife wrote:<<< According to you, I am going to hell UNLESS God decides to save me. >>>[/quote] According to God, like you, I would be going to hell had God not already decided to save me from all eternity. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< Nothing I actually want will make any difference. I could embrace Jesus as my Savior, and repent of my sins, but none of that will matter UNLESS God gives me the desire to do these things. >>>[/quote]Like you, being DEAD, I would never have had the ego crushing desire to confess myself utterly condemned and helpless EXCEPT that I have been raised from the dead as He reached into my grave of sin and breathed His very own life into me. This could be you too.[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Ultimately, I have no control whatsoever over whether I will suffer forever, or rejoice forever. Those who suffer forever will do so because God has chosen that fate for them. >>>[/quote]Those who suffer forever wouldn’t have it any other way… until it’s too late. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< Those that rejoice forever will do so because God has chosen to save them, and only them. >>>[/quote]Yes they will, yes He has and I praise His name for it because if it were not for His free electing grace ALL would be lost. See, pagans love to wail and whine about “HOW could a loving God send people to hell?”. I fall to my knees in adoring worship as I marvel at the fact that He saves ANYBODY at all!!! I know my sin. I KNOW what I am without Him and in so knowing I KNOW what everybody else is without Him as well. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< In your theology, we are nothing more than God’s playthings. He creates us, He chooses our fate, and we have NO choice in the matter. [/quote] PLAYTHINGS HE SAYS!!! Au contraire my poor deceived friend. We are, of all the vast expanse of His mind numbing creation, the only entity bearing His image and likeness and when we fell we took the rest of the universe with us in the dominion He gave Adam.
This is the God who from nothing commands light and matter to exist, upholds them unceasingly by the Word of His power and is contemporaneously aware of the exact ever expanding number of particles and waves they contain. That God was born of a woman as a man, lived a spotless life to adulthood before His own law and then willingly allowed the very criminal creation that had offended His blinding holiness to brutally murder Him so that He could rise again swallowing THEIR death in HIS victory. I can barely contain my wide eyed love and gratitude and I long for the day when I will no longer see through that glass darkly, but will gaze into His beautiful face. Let me tell you. I am no plaything and neither are you.
1st Peter 1:10-12 ESV[quote]<<< 10-Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11-inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12-It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. >>>[/quote]Did you hear that? The prophets of old knew they were serving US. The good news preached to US by the Holy Spirit is of such a nature that the sinless angels themselves LONG to see it. Angels that have spent their entire existence in God’s incomparable presence are awed by the unsearchable goodness shown US in the Gospel. Playthings? Thou knowest not what thou speakest.
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
<<< These are the very problems I had with calvinism logically extended as well. It leads you very quickly to fatalism.[/quote]It leads you very quickly to the arms of the master where all peace and security are found. The all holy, wise, righteous, just and loving decrees and providence of almighty are not fatalism. They are the method by which He displays His awesome glory before His creation.
Tirib, I appreciate the poetic nature of your prose, but I find the message completely repugnant.
Let’s cut to the chase.
If you think people have free will, please explain how we have free will. Where in your theology do people actually get to make a choice?
I’m not seeing it. You claim that God does the creating, God does the choosing, and God does the blessing and damning.
I know you feel it’s just wonderful that God has chosen to save you from endless torment, but what about everyone else that isn’t so fortunate? Eternity is a long, long, looooong time to suffer. Especially when God is the one creating people, only to send them to hell.
Creating all these people to suffer forever makes zero sense. Why would a benevolent, loving God do that? And please don’t respond with a trite “God’s ways are higher than our ways”. It’s a rhetorical question, because I already know you have no answer.
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Oh you silly goose, where did I ever say that sinners have no need of repentance? Where did I say that a homosexual act was not sinful? I did not. A repentant heart and a humble heart is available for salvation regardless of who it belongs to. I take the bible’s word over yours too. Repentant sinners come in all shapes and sizes. But whoa to those who shut the kingdom of God in people’s faces.
It ain’t your kingdom, it’s God’s. I didn’t read in the scripture where St. Peter turned his keys over to you.[/quote]Silly goose LOL!!! Ya know Pat. At least on this score we may have simply had a severe communication problem all along. I have shut the kingdom to no one. Did you not see a week or 2 ago where I told Forlife to “repent, believe the gospel and live”? Same with Honest Lifter, a Jehovah’s Witness and several others. Of course, like I said above, ANYBODY can believe and be saved from my perspective. I have no idea who the elect are. I’ve said that a few dozen times too. I treat everybody I meet as if they are. When I tell somebody they are on the way to hell that does not mean I am pronouncing their final judgment. Only God can do that. I hope they repent and trust their lives to the Lord, but if they do not? They are damned. That fact is everywhere in scripture. Nuthin to do with me. I’m just a grateful wretch redeemed by His blood trying to be obedient by proclaiming His offended holiness AND His amazing grace.
[/quote]
I told forlife that we knit with old ladies and watch the Braves and Golden Girls and he almost came to believe the truth. Honey over vinegar, yes preach the Gospel, but do it in your actions first and your words second or not even at all.
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
<<< These are the very problems I had with calvinism logically extended as well. It leads you very quickly to fatalism.[/quote]It leads you very quickly to the arms of the master where all peace and security are found. The all holy, wise, righteous, just and loving decrees and providence of almighty are not fatalism. They are the method by which He displays His awesome glory before His creation.
[/quote]
Well, I suppose you’re half right, but it doesn’t lead the non-elect ‘very quickly to the arms of the master’.
How does it not lead to fatalism?
You are either damned or not damned.
Once you know this you then say, oh man I don’t want to be damned, so I’ll believe, now I’m saved, but is my faith real? Did I just save myself? Am I really saved? Should I tell other people? Well, they are either saved or not, so I guess it doesn’t matter if I evangelize, but then Jesus called us to evangelize. So, I guess I need to do something… If this is predestined, did God predestine the fall of Adam and Eve? Sorry, to babble on there, but maybe you see the point, but maybe not, so here it is calvinism is great in theory, but it doesn’t work in practice.
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
<<< Once you know this you then say, oh man I don’t want to be damned, so I’ll believe, now I’m saved, but is my faith real? Did I just save myself? Am I really saved? Should I tell other people? Well, they are either saved or not, so I guess it doesn’t matter if I evangelize, but then Jesus called us to evangelize. So, I guess I need to do something… If this is predestined, did God predestine the fall of Adam and Eve? Sorry, to babble on there, but maybe you see the point, but maybe not, so here it is calvinism is great in theory, but it doesn’t work in practice. [/quote]Oh no man, that is just so wrong. I am not beating on you when I say that. Once the truth of God’s insurmountable comprehensively victorious governance of all that is His, which is everything, becomes real in a person’s mind? It is the most practical source of power, peace and confidence imaginable. I suffer from no such conflicting cerebral see saw in the slightest. To me the towering truths of the Lord just… ARE.
See, here is what Calvin rediscovered and that with Augustine’s help though he never actually put it this way. The view of autonomous man is that HE is on the throne of his life and God is brought before him to be judged whether the man will have Him or not. Exalted man, deficient God at best and downright sacrilegious at worst. Calvin found in the scriptures a God who is the King of all kings on the throne of all thrones before whom man is brought and dealt with as this mighty ruler sees fit.
The eternally elect in Christ will freely and lovingly choose life in Him and the reprobate will not. They will do this or not in fulfillment of His eternal decree. I have no idea how that works and don’t care. Not my business. All I know is that’s what He says. Men are free, accountable and utterly predestined all at the same time. Once one gets a glimpse of His breathtaking exaltation over everything except Himself, concepts like this, again, just… ARE. He brought me into joyous willing submission to where I don’t have to understand something for it to be true. In fact my understanding it just may be the greatest evidence of it’s falsehood. A God who fits between my ears is no God at all.
That is faith and that is where Aquinas did the world a grave disservice with his overt magnification of human thought in the guise of “natural law”. Aquinas was a titanic intellect and he is a rather large (he actually was rather large =] ) object lesson in what happens when God is not properly worshiped in the active mind.
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Oh you silly goose, where did I ever say that sinners have no need of repentance? Where did I say that a homosexual act was not sinful? I did not. A repentant heart and a humble heart is available for salvation regardless of who it belongs to. I take the bible’s word over yours too. Repentant sinners come in all shapes and sizes. But whoa to those who shut the kingdom of God in people’s faces.
It ain’t your kingdom, it’s God’s. I didn’t read in the scripture where St. Peter turned his keys over to you.[/quote]Silly goose LOL!!! Ya know Pat. At least on this score we may have simply had a severe communication problem all along. I have shut the kingdom to no one. Did you not see a week or 2 ago where I told Forlife to “repent, believe the gospel and live”? Same with Honest Lifter, a Jehovah’s Witness and several others. Of course, like I said above, ANYBODY can believe and be saved from my perspective. I have no idea who the elect are. I’ve said that a few dozen times too. I treat everybody I meet as if they are. When I tell somebody they are on the way to hell that does not mean I am pronouncing their final judgment. Only God can do that. I hope they repent and trust their lives to the Lord, but if they do not? They are damned. That fact is everywhere in scripture. Nuthin to do with me. I’m just a grateful wretch redeemed by His blood trying to be obedient by proclaiming His offended holiness AND His amazing grace.
[/quote]
Well then, you need to back off on your pronouncements. All sin is damning. The biggest sin is lack of repentance for sin, the lack of understanding that you can be forgiven. The lack of wisdom that you need that.
For instance, that was Judas’s biggest mistake and his downfall. It’s not that he betrayed Jesus, it’s that he refused to believe that he could be forgiven for such an act. Such is the tragedy of Judas, not the betrayal the refusal to repent and accept Christ’s forgiveness. What a victory of faith if Judas had accepted what he did and asked Jesus to forgive him. Do you think Christ would have refused him?
That is why you cannot condemn people, be they gay, murderer’s, blasphemers, catholics, muslims, hindus, proctologists, prostitutes, etc. We do not know who is repentant and we damn sure don’t know their personal relationship with God.
Unless you can know people’s hearts you cannot know any of that. You cannot know how people got where they are in life and belief. You don’t know their sufferings. In the end it is suffering that transcends all. It’s a crappy way to gain pure wisdom, but the more you suffer, the more you know what really matters.
[/quote]
Well said. Suffering can either cause people to turn inward, which is the direction of damnation, or it can refine their souls, burn away the dross, and help them turn outward toward sallvation. The direction they turn is ultimately their choice, but the suffering is a catalyst that impels them forward. Those that suffer and love are those that are ultimately saved. [/quote]
Suffering is that and so much more. It is the world’s shittiest path toward wisdom, but it is infallible.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
I’m not either according to every “true christian” that has ever confronted me on the issue, but by experience I would have to guess that it is the first person to levy the accusation that the other is not.
edit: I never could get that raising of the hands thing or crying in public down. I think that may be why I’ve been pegged by so many as “not a true christian”. Apparently if you can’t do those, you are spiritually dead.
[/quote]
I hate that too. In the Bible it tells us to go into our closet when we pray and not out into the street. Mathew Chp. 5 I believe. Praying in public is fine but when people do it for the “look at me” factor it is hypocritical.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
I’m not either according to every “true christian” that has ever confronted me on the issue, but by experience I would have to guess that it is the first person to levy the accusation that the other is not.
edit: I never could get that raising of the hands thing or crying in public down. I think that may be why I’ve been pegged by so many as “not a true christian”. Apparently if you can’t do those, you are spiritually dead.
[/quote]
I hate that too. In the Bible it tells us to go into our closet when we pray and not out into the street. Mathew Chp. 5 I believe. Praying in public is fine but when people do it for the “look at me” factor it is hypocritical. [/quote]
I also don’t believe in publicly acting like an idiot has any spiritual benefit. If you do something out of passion, I am cool with that, but much of it seems so contrived.
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< I also don’t believe in publicly acting like an idiot has any spiritual benefit. If you do something out of passion, I am cool with that, but much of it seems so contrived.[/quote]I actually pretty much agree with you here Pat. Also, as demonstrative as even I can be sometimes, there is no particular, morally neutral behavior that says anything in itself about anything. Crying, shouting, clapping etc… People celebrate the Lord in different ways and I am not going to be the one to tell someone with plentiful godly fruit that they need to express their love and worship of Him in any certain way. The bible does not do that.
Once you know this you then say, oh man I don’t want to be damned, so I’ll believe, now I’m saved, but is my faith real? Did I just save myself? Am I really saved? Should I tell other people? Well, they are either saved or not, so I guess it doesn’t matter if I evangelize, but then Jesus called us to evangelize. [/quote]
Religion = Say I’m right or else you’re in big trouble! Ok, good. Now go tell others to say we’re right, or else they’ll be in trouble! And make sure to tell them to tell others the same thing!
Here’s a question for you: what if there is a god that is not the christian god, and will be furious and punish you eternally for believing in Yahweh instead of him/her/it?
Once you know this you then say, oh man I don’t want to be damned, so I’ll believe, now I’m saved, but is my faith real? Did I just save myself? Am I really saved? Should I tell other people? Well, they are either saved or not, so I guess it doesn’t matter if I evangelize, but then Jesus called us to evangelize. [/quote]
Religion = Say I’m right or else you’re in big trouble! Ok, good. Now go tell others to say we’re right, or else they’ll be in trouble! And make sure to tell them to tell others the same thing!
Here’s a question for you: what if there is a god that is not the christian god, and will be furious and punish you eternally for believing in Yahweh instead of him/her/it? [/quote]
Religion is a means by which to communicate with God. It’s not supposed to be a school ground, ‘I am right and your wrong’ and your going to hell kind of deal.
Once you know this you then say, oh man I don’t want to be damned, so I’ll believe, now I’m saved, but is my faith real? Did I just save myself? Am I really saved? Should I tell other people? Well, they are either saved or not, so I guess it doesn’t matter if I evangelize, but then Jesus called us to evangelize. [/quote]
Religion = Say I’m right or else you’re in big trouble! Ok, good. Now go tell others to say we’re right, or else they’ll be in trouble! And make sure to tell them to tell others the same thing!
Here’s a question for you: what if there is a god that is not the christian god, and will be furious and punish you eternally for believing in Yahweh instead of him/her/it? [/quote]
CappedandPlanIt, thank you for takin me out of context. I was using hyperbole to make a point about a certain position and also I don’t think I did it very well and what’s more I know it to be incorrect about the person I directed it too, so thanks I’ll try not to say dumb stuff anymore (my apologies Tirib).
Religion is not what you are saying at all. It is (in the case of Christianity) a true life, knowing who one is and why they are here.
To your question: [quote] Here’s a question for you: what if there is a god that is not the christian god, and will be furious and punish you eternally for believing in Yahweh instead of him/her/it? [/quote]
Then I guess I’m screwed. If I knew about this I’d convert (but it’s just not the case).
Once you know this you then say, oh man I don’t want to be damned, so I’ll believe, now I’m saved, but is my faith real? Did I just save myself? Am I really saved? Should I tell other people? Well, they are either saved or not, so I guess it doesn’t matter if I evangelize, but then Jesus called us to evangelize. [/quote]
Religion = Say I’m right or else you’re in big trouble! Ok, good. Now go tell others to say we’re right, or else they’ll be in trouble! And make sure to tell them to tell others the same thing!
Here’s a question for you: what if there is a god that is not the christian god, and will be furious and punish you eternally for believing in Yahweh instead of him/her/it? [/quote]
Religion is a means by which to communicate with God. It’s not supposed to be a school ground, ‘I am right and your wrong’ and your going to hell kind of deal.
[/quote]
Then why do so many religions build “This religion is true and anyone who disagrees will be punished purely for their disagreement” into their teachings?
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
<<< and also I don’t think I did it very well and what’s more I know it to be incorrect about the person I directed it too, so thanks I’ll try not to say dumb stuff anymore (my apologies Tirib). >>>[/quote]No trouble friend. It’s clear you’re not misrepresenting intentionally.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Then why do so many religions build “This religion is true and anyone who disagrees will be punished purely for their disagreement” into their teachings? [/quote]Religion by definition is a world view purporting to answer man’s ultimate questions. It is not possible that ultimate questions be susceptible to multiple answers or they are not ultimate after all. There is nothing I have less respect for than “religious tolerance” defined as “all honest seekers eventually find God”.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Then why do so many religions build “This religion is true and anyone who disagrees will be punished purely for their disagreement” into their teachings? [/quote]Religion by definition is a world view purporting to answer man’s ultimate questions. It is not possible that ultimate questions be susceptible to multiple answers or they are not ultimate after all. There is nothing I have less respect for than “religious tolerance” defined as “all honest seekers eventually find God”. [/quote]
And I have no respect for bad answers to those ultimate questions. Even when those professing those bad answers say “Well at least I HAVE an answer!”, or when they say “No! I refuse to see anything but the trueness of my answer!”, or “If I can find a flaw in YOUR answer, then the only alternative is that MY answer is true!”
“I dont know” is a much better answer than an obviously untrue one.
How did the universe start? We don’t know = better than “A man up in the sky spoke”
What is right and wrong? We don’t know = better than “What the man in the sky says”
Is there a purpose to my life? I dont know = better than “To do what the invisible man in the sky says I should”
What happens when we die? We dont know = better than “The invisible man in the sky punishes us eternally or rewards us eternally”
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Then why do so many religions build “This religion is true and anyone who disagrees will be punished purely for their disagreement” into their teachings? [/quote]Religion by definition is a world view purporting to answer man’s ultimate questions. It is not possible that ultimate questions be susceptible to multiple answers or they are not ultimate after all. There is nothing I have less respect for than “religious tolerance” defined as “all honest seekers eventually find God”. [/quote]
And I have no respect for bad answers to those ultimate questions. Even when those professing those bad answers say “Well at least I HAVE an answer!”, or when they say “No! I refuse to see anything but the trueness of my answer!”, or “If I can find a flaw in YOUR answer, then the only alternative is that MY answer is true!”
“I dont know” is a much better answer than an obviously untrue one.
How did the universe start? We don’t know = better than “A man up in the sky spoke”
What is right and wrong? We don’t know = better than “What the man in the sky says”
Is there a purpose to my life? I dont know = better than “To do what the invisible man in the sky says I should”
What happens when we die? We dont know = better than “The invisible man in the sky punishes us eternally or rewards us eternally”
[/quote]
You seem to be very concerned with the idea of hell. Is this something that weighs heavily on your conscience? I’m not 100% sure where the idea of hell is the ultimate punishment came from, but hell is not a punishment. Hell is a consequence. Hell would only be a punishment if someone followed God for their entire life only for him to send them to hell just on a whim. Hell is quite simply the absence of God. Nowhere in the Bible does is it stated that hell will be physical torture or even close. It calls it agony which unfortunately it will be. Hell is reserved for those who have chosen to reject God their entire lives. In eternity, God allows them to continue to reject him and spend the afterlife without him. However, nobody should believe or accept God just because they are afraid of going to hell.