Defining a 'True Christian'?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
221

[quote]forlife wrote:
I agree that ultimately, all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. If there really is a God, that being is part of the fabric of truth as sure as the sun, moon, and stars.

At the same time, I don’t believe we can know what is true unless there is reliable supporting evidence for that knowledge. If there is a God and some day I stand before Him, that will add to my knowledge. But lacking such evidence, I can’t with integrity claim to believe it is actually true.

I believe in the pursuit of truth, no matter where it takes me. In that sense, I’m actually very Catholic, in the classic sense of the word :slight_smile: [/quote]

As they say ‘the truth will set you free’. You should study epistemology, they study of what can be known. It is very much in your wheel house. What you start to see is that what you really truly can know is very little. The rest you trust on pure faith. It’s simply a limitation on the body; we just can’t see past a certain point no matter how hard we try.

222

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
<<< However, I disagree with your view that God hates sinners. >>>[/quote]It’s not my view. It is also the view incidentally of the Catholic friar that Brother Chris gave us the link to. I agree with almost everything he said in that homily actually. >>>[quote]forlife wrote: It makes no sense to me, I is inconsistent with my read of the new testament, >>> [/quote]I understand. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< and is the opposite of everything Jesus taught. >>>[/quote]God’s hatred of His enemies is absolutely consistent with every last syllable Jesus uttered. It could not be otherwise. [quote]forlife wrote: <<<I noticed that the 2 scriptures you cited were from the old testament. Do you believe that Jesus lacked love and compassion for sinners? [/quote]God does not change. (Malachi 3:6) and Jesus Christ also being God is the same yesterday today and forever (Hebrews 13:7). Every last description by God of Himself in the OT is unquestionably just as true today as it was before ever the world was. No I do not believe Jesus lacked anything necessary to His ministry nor do I believe that He loves everybody either. The world does not ultimately mean everybody in John 3:16 any more than it does when John says in his first epistle that the “whole world lies in the power of the evil one”.
[/quote]

Okay then, who are God’s enemies, I mean besides ms, BC and forlife?? Be specific.

223

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
I agree that ultimately, all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. If there really is a God, that being is part of the fabric of truth as sure as the sun, moon, and stars.

At the same time, I don’t believe we can know what is true unless there is reliable supporting evidence for that knowledge. If there is a God and some day I stand before Him, that will add to my knowledge. But lacking such evidence, I can’t with integrity claim to believe it is actually true.

I believe in the pursuit of truth, no matter where it takes me. In that sense, I’m actually very Catholic, in the classic sense of the word :slight_smile: [/quote]

Do you know who is Justin Martyr? Not, like you studied him, but know the general background of Justin Martyr?[/quote]

Only in a very general sense. I know he was a pagan who converted to Christianity in the late second century.

224

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Okay then, who are God’s enemies, I mean besides ms, BC and forlife?? Be specific.[/quote]EVERYBODY still dead in trespasses and sins and who is thus by nature a child of wrath like Paul says in the second of Ephesians.

225

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
How are Catholics being grouped with Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses? Catholics believe in Jesus Christ as the eternally begotten Son of God who was crucified and resurrected for our sins and who is one substance with the Father. Mormons believe Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, Elohim was some outerspace being, and the Trinity is false.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus was the archangel Michael in human form. They also deny him being one with the Father as well as the Holy Spirit not being God. They think only 144,000 people will be in heaven. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses may need your prayers for salvation but not Catholics. [/quote]

Because reportedly, we’re all going to hell according to Tirib.[/quote]

My aunt, who was Baptist, had the same feeling about my grandmother, who was Catholic. She even refused to attend the funeral because she thought that she was going to hell for her Catholic beliefs. Nothing of what my grandmother professed sounded out of the ordinary to me. Ultimately, I guess it’s up to God on our final destination in the afterlife. [/quote]

Ultimately it’s up to us…Otherwise what’s the point? If we’re predestined there’s no point to any of it because you cannot change the outcome.

I love my evangelical brethren, but it’s the behavior of those like your aunt that drive me nuts. That’s archaic biblical literalist thinking that led to the dark ages.

No offense your aunt, but who can claim righteousness before God when they try to pretend they know his mind and make judgments like that? As a matter of fact making judgments like that were specifically called out by Jesus himself as sinful.

There seems to be no middle road on the “Do not judge lest ye be judged” tenet. One side says you can’t judge anything the other says that based on the bible they can judge everything. I wish people understood this with out having to write a dissertation on it. [/quote]

It’s easy, just one’s actions and not their soul.

A person murders another person, there is clear evidence of their wrong doing. We can judge the action is an abomination. This is good and fine.

A person murders another person, there is clear evidence of their wrong doing. We cannot judge that he will go to Hell. That is not good and fine, it breaks a commandment.

226

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
I agree that ultimately, all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. If there really is a God, that being is part of the fabric of truth as sure as the sun, moon, and stars.

At the same time, I don’t believe we can know what is true unless there is reliable supporting evidence for that knowledge. If there is a God and some day I stand before Him, that will add to my knowledge. But lacking such evidence, I can’t with integrity claim to believe it is actually true.

I believe in the pursuit of truth, no matter where it takes me. In that sense, I’m actually very Catholic, in the classic sense of the word :slight_smile: [/quote]

Do you know who is Justin Martyr? Not, like you studied him, but know the general background of Justin Martyr?[/quote]

Only in a very general sense. I know he was a pagan who converted to Christianity in the late second century.[/quote]

Yes, he praised the Greeks for their pursuit of truth and the source of all truth, he likened them to Christians, they just didn’t know the truth was the Catholic Church and the source was Jesus. I’ll see if I can’t find anything.

227

Chris, I agree with Justin Martyr. I think truth can be found in every religion and philosophy. If people focused on common truths, and were even open to learning new truths, I think religion could offer even more to the human race than is currently the case.

228

[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, I agree with Justin Martyr. I think truth can be found in every religion and philosophy. If people focused on common truths, and were even open to learning new truths, I think religion could offer even more to the human race than is currently the case. [/quote]

I agree as well, but I would argue that some disciplines lend it self to the truth better than others.
That’s why I don’t really care for Eastern philosophy. It will make a statement like ‘A circle is round’ and you have to sit there and ponder why it’s true. You can find truth in it, it just takes a lot longer that way.

229

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Okay then, who are God’s enemies, I mean besides ms, BC and forlife?? Be specific.[/quote]EVERYBODY still dead in trespasses and sins and who is thus by nature a child of wrath like Paul says in the second of Ephesians.[/quote]

Ok, so you never sin anymore? Congratulations, you may throw the first stone…

230

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
How are Catholics being grouped with Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses? Catholics believe in Jesus Christ as the eternally begotten Son of God who was crucified and resurrected for our sins and who is one substance with the Father. Mormons believe Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, Elohim was some outerspace being, and the Trinity is false.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus was the archangel Michael in human form. They also deny him being one with the Father as well as the Holy Spirit not being God. They think only 144,000 people will be in heaven. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses may need your prayers for salvation but not Catholics. [/quote]

Because reportedly, we’re all going to hell according to Tirib.[/quote]

My aunt, who was Baptist, had the same feeling about my grandmother, who was Catholic. She even refused to attend the funeral because she thought that she was going to hell for her Catholic beliefs. Nothing of what my grandmother professed sounded out of the ordinary to me. Ultimately, I guess it’s up to God on our final destination in the afterlife. [/quote]

Ultimately it’s up to us…Otherwise what’s the point? If we’re predestined there’s no point to any of it because you cannot change the outcome.

I love my evangelical brethren, but it’s the behavior of those like your aunt that drive me nuts. That’s archaic biblical literalist thinking that led to the dark ages.

No offense your aunt, but who can claim righteousness before God when they try to pretend they know his mind and make judgments like that? As a matter of fact making judgments like that were specifically called out by Jesus himself as sinful.

There seems to be no middle road on the “Do not judge lest ye be judged” tenet. One side says you can’t judge anything the other says that based on the bible they can judge everything. I wish people understood this with out having to write a dissertation on it. [/quote]

It’s easy, just one’s actions and not their soul.

A person murders another person, there is clear evidence of their wrong doing. We can judge the action is an abomination. This is good and fine.

A person murders another person, there is clear evidence of their wrong doing. We cannot judge that he will go to Hell. That is not good and fine, it breaks a commandment.

[/quote]

I would argue that we also have to pass judgments on a person as they relate to ourselves or others. That means a person who commits murder is a murderer and must be dealt with in such a way that he can do no more harm. Once a person has shown themselves as grievously dishonest, you cannot, without an omniscient mind, trust them to do no more harm. Therefore we must judge them as detrimental to others. However, we cannot judge his soul or his heart. If he is repentant of his sin and atoned for them before God, only he can judge.

There are obvious cases such as someone like Stalin, I would have a hard time believing he has joined the heavenly fray, but the truth is that I don’t know.

But what I do know is you cannot roundly condemn large groups of people to hell simply because they don’t believe as you do, just because you think you’re right and therefore everyone else is wrong. You may be right and someone else may be right too, that’s the reality. That is why Christ told us not to judge.

231

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Okay then, who are God’s enemies, I mean besides ms, BC and forlife?? Be specific.[/quote]EVERYBODY still dead in trespasses and sins and who is thus by nature a child of wrath like Paul says in the second of Ephesians.[/quote]

Ok, so you never sin anymore? Congratulations, you may throw the first stone…[/quote]Nevermind. Really.

232

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< There are obvious cases such as someone like Stalin, I would have a hard time believing he has joined the heavenly fray, but the truth is that I don’t know. >>> [/quote]1st Corinthians 6:9-11[quote]9-Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10-nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11-And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.[/quote]You’ll forgive me if I take Paul’s words over yours. Yes, anyone can repent and be saved and that is my fervent prayer, but those presently practicing sin are presently damned or Paul and by extension God is a liar.[quote]pat wrote:But what I do know is you cannot roundly condemn large groups of people to hell simply because they don’t believe as you do, just because you think you’re right and therefore everyone else is wrong. You may be right and someone else may be right too, that’s the reality. That is why Christ told us not to judge.[/quote]Jesus was telling US not to judge. Example? Pat likes it better if the people listed above might actually inherit the kingdom of God after all. That’s Pat’s judgment. God’s judgment, that I merely report is that those people are as lost as I was and if I love them I MUST tell them the truth about what God Himself says abut them and call them to repentance in the hope that He would grant them life.

God is saying "YOU don’t get to judge, but here is MY infallible judgment which I send you into the world to proclaim along with the good news that I myself have provided the payment for it. That’s the gospel Pat. I hope you embrace it one day.

233

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< There are obvious cases such as someone like Stalin, I would have a hard time believing he has joined the heavenly fray, but the truth is that I don’t know. >>> [/quote]1st Corinthians 6:9-11[quote]9-Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10-nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11-And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.[/quote]You’ll forgive me if I take Paul’s words over yours. Yes, anyone can repent and be saved and that is my fervent prayer, but those presently practicing sin are presently damned or Paul and by extension God is a liar.[quote]pat wrote:But what I do know is you cannot roundly condemn large groups of people to hell simply because they don’t believe as you do, just because you think you’re right and therefore everyone else is wrong. You may be right and someone else may be right too, that’s the reality. That is why Christ told us not to judge.[/quote]Jesus was telling US not to judge. Example? Pat likes it better if the people listed above might actually inherit the kingdom of God after all. That’s Pat’s judgment. God’s judgment, that I merely report is that those people are as lost as I was and if I love them I MUST tell them the truth about what God Himself says abut them and call them to repentance in the hope that He would grant them life.

God is saying "YOU don’t get to judge, but here is MY infallible judgment which I send you into the world to proclaim along with the good news that I myself have provided the payment for it. That’s the gospel Pat. I hope you embrace it one day.[/quote]

Oh you silly goose, where did I ever say that sinners have no need of repentance? Where did I say that a homosexual act was not sinful? I did not. A repentant heart and a humble heart is available for salvation regardless of who it belongs to. I take the bible’s word over yours too. Repentant sinners come in all shapes and sizes. But whoa to those who shut the kingdom of God in people’s faces.
It ain’t your kingdom, it’s God’s. I didn’t read in the scripture where St. Peter turned his keys over to you.

234

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Oh you silly goose, where did I ever say that sinners have no need of repentance? Where did I say that a homosexual act was not sinful? I did not. A repentant heart and a humble heart is available for salvation regardless of who it belongs to. I take the bible’s word over yours too. Repentant sinners come in all shapes and sizes. But whoa to those who shut the kingdom of God in people’s faces.
It ain’t your kingdom, it’s God’s. I didn’t read in the scripture where St. Peter turned his keys over to you.[/quote]Silly goose LOL!!! Ya know Pat. At least on this score we may have simply had a severe communication problem all along. I have shut the kingdom to no one. Did you not see a week or 2 ago where I told Forlife to “repent, believe the gospel and live”? Same with Honest Lifter, a Jehovah’s Witness and several others. Of course, like I said above, ANYBODY can believe and be saved from my perspective. I have no idea who the elect are. I’ve said that a few dozen times too. I treat everybody I meet as if they are. When I tell somebody they are on the way to hell that does not mean I am pronouncing their final judgment. Only God can do that. I hope they repent and trust their lives to the Lord, but if they do not? They are damned. That fact is everywhere in scripture. Nuthin to do with me. I’m just a grateful wretch redeemed by His blood trying to be obedient by proclaiming His offended holiness AND His amazing grace.

235

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Oh you silly goose, where did I ever say that sinners have no need of repentance? Where did I say that a homosexual act was not sinful? I did not. A repentant heart and a humble heart is available for salvation regardless of who it belongs to. I take the bible’s word over yours too. Repentant sinners come in all shapes and sizes. But whoa to those who shut the kingdom of God in people’s faces.
It ain’t your kingdom, it’s God’s. I didn’t read in the scripture where St. Peter turned his keys over to you.[/quote]Silly goose LOL!!! Ya know Pat. At least on this score we may have simply had a severe communication problem all along. I have shut the kingdom to no one. Did you not see a week or 2 ago where I told Forlife to “repent, believe the gospel and live”? Same with Honest Lifter, a Jehovah’s Witness and several others. Of course, like I said above, ANYBODY can believe and be saved from my perspective. I have no idea who the elect are. I’ve said that a few dozen times too. I treat everybody I meet as if they are. When I tell somebody they are on the way to hell that does not mean I am pronouncing their final judgment. Only God can do that. I hope they repent and trust their lives to the Lord, but if they do not? They are damned. That fact is everywhere in scripture. Nuthin to do with me. I’m just a grateful wretch redeemed by His blood trying to be obedient by proclaiming His offended holiness AND His amazing grace.
[/quote]

Well then, you need to back off on your pronouncements. All sin is damning. The biggest sin is lack of repentance for sin, the lack of understanding that you can be forgiven. The lack of wisdom that you need that.
For instance, that was Judas’s biggest mistake and his downfall. It’s not that he betrayed Jesus, it’s that he refused to believe that he could be forgiven for such an act. Such is the tragedy of Judas, not the betrayal the refusal to repent and accept Christ’s forgiveness. What a victory of faith if Judas had accepted what he did and asked Jesus to forgive him. Do you think Christ would have refused him?
That is why you cannot condemn people, be they gay, murderer’s, blasphemers, catholics, muslims, hindus, proctologists, prostitutes, etc. We do not know who is repentant and we damn sure don’t know their personal relationship with God.
Unless you can know people’s hearts you cannot know any of that. You cannot know how people got where they are in life and belief. You don’t know their sufferings. In the end it is suffering that transcends all. It’s a crappy way to gain pure wisdom, but the more you suffer, the more you know what really matters.

236

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Oh you silly goose, where did I ever say that sinners have no need of repentance? Where did I say that a homosexual act was not sinful? I did not. A repentant heart and a humble heart is available for salvation regardless of who it belongs to. I take the bible’s word over yours too. Repentant sinners come in all shapes and sizes. But whoa to those who shut the kingdom of God in people’s faces.
It ain’t your kingdom, it’s God’s. I didn’t read in the scripture where St. Peter turned his keys over to you.[/quote]Silly goose LOL!!! Ya know Pat. At least on this score we may have simply had a severe communication problem all along. I have shut the kingdom to no one. Did you not see a week or 2 ago where I told Forlife to “repent, believe the gospel and live”? Same with Honest Lifter, a Jehovah’s Witness and several others. Of course, like I said above, ANYBODY can believe and be saved from my perspective. I have no idea who the elect are. I’ve said that a few dozen times too. I treat everybody I meet as if they are. When I tell somebody they are on the way to hell that does not mean I am pronouncing their final judgment. Only God can do that. I hope they repent and trust their lives to the Lord, but if they do not? They are damned. That fact is everywhere in scripture. Nuthin to do with me. I’m just a grateful wretch redeemed by His blood trying to be obedient by proclaiming His offended holiness AND His amazing grace.
[/quote]

You don’t really believe that, though. You’ve made it clear that not everyone can believe and be saved. Not everyone will be given the opportunity to repent, believe the gospel, and live. Instead, you believe God will choose who to save and who to damn, regardless of what people actually believe or do. There is no free will in your theological world. Everyone is a puppet, and the strings are pulled by God for His own mysterious purposes.

Given that, I don’t know why you waste your time calling people to repentance. It’s not like you believe people can actually choose to repent. God makes the choice for them.

237

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Oh you silly goose, where did I ever say that sinners have no need of repentance? Where did I say that a homosexual act was not sinful? I did not. A repentant heart and a humble heart is available for salvation regardless of who it belongs to. I take the bible’s word over yours too. Repentant sinners come in all shapes and sizes. But whoa to those who shut the kingdom of God in people’s faces.
It ain’t your kingdom, it’s God’s. I didn’t read in the scripture where St. Peter turned his keys over to you.[/quote]Silly goose LOL!!! Ya know Pat. At least on this score we may have simply had a severe communication problem all along. I have shut the kingdom to no one. Did you not see a week or 2 ago where I told Forlife to “repent, believe the gospel and live”? Same with Honest Lifter, a Jehovah’s Witness and several others. Of course, like I said above, ANYBODY can believe and be saved from my perspective. I have no idea who the elect are. I’ve said that a few dozen times too. I treat everybody I meet as if they are. When I tell somebody they are on the way to hell that does not mean I am pronouncing their final judgment. Only God can do that. I hope they repent and trust their lives to the Lord, but if they do not? They are damned. That fact is everywhere in scripture. Nuthin to do with me. I’m just a grateful wretch redeemed by His blood trying to be obedient by proclaiming His offended holiness AND His amazing grace.
[/quote]

Well then, you need to back off on your pronouncements. All sin is damning. The biggest sin is lack of repentance for sin, the lack of understanding that you can be forgiven. The lack of wisdom that you need that.
For instance, that was Judas’s biggest mistake and his downfall. It’s not that he betrayed Jesus, it’s that he refused to believe that he could be forgiven for such an act. Such is the tragedy of Judas, not the betrayal the refusal to repent and accept Christ’s forgiveness. What a victory of faith if Judas had accepted what he did and asked Jesus to forgive him. Do you think Christ would have refused him?
That is why you cannot condemn people, be they gay, murderer’s, blasphemers, catholics, muslims, hindus, proctologists, prostitutes, etc. We do not know who is repentant and we damn sure don’t know their personal relationship with God.
Unless you can know people’s hearts you cannot know any of that. You cannot know how people got where they are in life and belief. You don’t know their sufferings. In the end it is suffering that transcends all. It’s a crappy way to gain pure wisdom, but the more you suffer, the more you know what really matters.
[/quote]

Well said. Suffering can either cause people to turn inward, which is the direction of damnation, or it can refine their souls, burn away the dross, and help them turn outward toward sallvation. The direction they turn is ultimately their choice, but the suffering is a catalyst that impels them forward. Those that suffer and love are those that are ultimately saved.

238

[quote]forlife wrote:
<<< regardless of what people actually believe or do. >>>[/quote]No, I have not said anything like that, but I don’t really have time to answer now. Suffice it to say that EVERY SINGLE one of His elect WILL confess and believe unto salvation exactly when He has decreed that they will. It absolutely matters what they believe. It is His gift.[quote]forlife wrote:
Given that, I don’t know why you waste your time calling people to repentance. It’s not like you believe people can actually choose to repent. God makes the choice for them. [/quote] Because, in His most loving providence, the preaching of the gospel is His decreed means by which He calls and subdues His elect. He says so in passages like 1st Corninthians 1. I get to participate!!! I have no clue who the elect are and like I say. I just assume everyone is. There is no sinner so lost, corrupted, evil and dead as to overcome the power my savior’s blood and resurrection if so applied by the Father. Not me, not you, not Ephrem or Cappandplannit or FightingIrish or Bill Maher or Kim Jong Il or Osama Bin Laden.

239

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
<<< regardless of what people actually believe or do. >>>[/quote]No, I have not said anything like that, but I don’t really have time to answer now. Suffice it to say that EVERY SINGLE one of His elect WILL confess and believe unto salvation exactly when He has decreed that they will. It absolutely matters what they believe. It is His gift.[quote]forlife wrote:
Given that, I don’t know why you waste your time calling people to repentance. It’s not like you believe people can actually choose to repent. God makes the choice for them. [/quote] Because, in His most loving providence, the preaching of the gospel is His decreed means by which He calls and subdues His elect. He says so in passages like 1st Corninthians 1. I get to participate!!! I have no clue who the elect are and like I say. I just assume everyone is. There is no sinner so lost, corrupted, evil and dead as to overcome the power my savior’s blood and resurrection if so applied by the Father. Not me, not you, not Ephrem or Cappandplannit or FightingIrish or Bill Maher or Kim Jong Il or Osama Bin Laden.[/quote]

Yes, you’ve said exactly that. You just said it again. Take a step back and think about it.

Every single one of God’s elect will be saved…because, and ONLY because, God has chosen to save them. They confess because God gives them the desire to confess. They repent because God gives them the desire to repent. They are saved because God decides to save them. NONE of this is due to anything they actually do themselves. ALL of it is due to what God does for them. They have ZERO role in all of this, except to celebrate the fact that God has chosen them over others.

They are PUPPETS, in the surest sense of the word.

According to you, I am going to hell UNLESS God decides to save me. Nothing I actually want will make any difference. I could embrace Jesus as my Savior, and repent of my sins, but none of that will matter UNLESS God gives me the desire to do these things. Ultimately, I have no control whatsoever over whether I will suffer forever, or rejoice forever. Those who suffer forever will do so because God has chosen that fate for them. Those that rejoice forever will do so because God has chosen to save them, and only them.

In your theology, we are nothing more than God’s playthings. He creates us, He chooses our fate, and we have NO choice in the matter.

240

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
<<< regardless of what people actually believe or do. >>>[/quote]No, I have not said anything like that, but I don’t really have time to answer now. Suffice it to say that EVERY SINGLE one of His elect WILL confess and believe unto salvation exactly when He has decreed that they will. It absolutely matters what they believe. It is His gift.[quote]forlife wrote:
Given that, I don’t know why you waste your time calling people to repentance. It’s not like you believe people can actually choose to repent. God makes the choice for them. [/quote] Because, in His most loving providence, the preaching of the gospel is His decreed means by which He calls and subdues His elect. He says so in passages like 1st Corninthians 1. I get to participate!!! I have no clue who the elect are and like I say. I just assume everyone is. There is no sinner so lost, corrupted, evil and dead as to overcome the power my savior’s blood and resurrection if so applied by the Father. Not me, not you, not Ephrem or Cappandplannit or FightingIrish or Bill Maher or Kim Jong Il or Osama Bin Laden.[/quote]

Yes, you’ve said exactly that. You just said it again. Take a step back and think about it.

Every single one of God’s elect will be saved…because, and ONLY because, God has chosen to save them. They confess because God gives them the desire to confess. They repent because God gives them the desire to repent. They are saved because God decides to save them. NONE of this is due to anything they actually do themselves. ALL of it is due to what God does for them. They have ZERO role in all of this, except to celebrate the fact that God has chosen them over others.

They are PUPPETS, in the surest sense of the word.

According to you, I am going to hell UNLESS God decides to save me. Nothing I actually want will make any difference. I could embrace Jesus as my Savior, and repent of my sins, but none of that will matter UNLESS God gives me the desire to do these things. Ultimately, I have no control whatsoever over whether I will suffer forever, or rejoice forever. Those who suffer forever will do so because God has chosen that fate for them. Those that rejoice forever will do so because God has chosen to save them, and only them.

In your theology, we are nothing more than God’s playthings. He creates us, He chooses our fate, and we have NO choice in the matter. [/quote]

These are the very problems I had with calvinism logically extended as well. It leads you very quickly to fatalism.