Defining a 'True Christian'?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
201

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
“Once again God is created in the image of man” - From your post above, really?[/quote]Yes, it is a common practice so “Once again God is created in the image of man” is a perfectly legitimate statement. Not that GOD is actually created, but in the mind of the person postulating the erroneous view, he is like them. [/quote]…No, God is not created in the image of man. Man is created in the image of God.[/quote]I agree because that’s what the Word of God says. However, even many who will affirm the truth of man’s creation in God’s image will upon further conversation inadvertently describe a god that sounds suspiciously like them and alarmingly not like the God revealed in the pages of scripture.

202

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
“Once again God is created in the image of man” - From your post above, really?[/quote]Yes, it is a common practice so “Once again God is created in the image of man” is a perfectly legitimate statement. Not that GOD is actually created, but in the mind of the person postulating the erroneous view, he is like them. [/quote]…No, God is not created in the image of man. Man is created in the image of God.[/quote]I agree because that’s what the Word of God says. However, even many who will affirm the truth of man’s creation in God’s image will upon further conversation inadvertently describe a god that sounds suspiciously like them and alarmingly not like the God revealed in the pages of scripture.
[/quote]

Then state that.

203

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
“Once again God is created in the image of man” - From your post above, really?[/quote]Yes, it is a common practice so “Once again God is created in the image of man” is a perfectly legitimate statement. Not that GOD is actually created, but in the mind of the person postulating the erroneous view, he is like them. [/quote]…No, God is not created in the image of man. Man is created in the image of God.[/quote]I agree because that’s what the Word of God says. However, even many who will affirm the truth of man’s creation in God’s image will upon further conversation inadvertently describe a god that sounds suspiciously like them and alarmingly not like the God revealed in the pages of scripture.
[/quote]Then state that.
[/quote]I did. At least that was my honest intent. If I failed to articulate my thoughts adequately I apologize.

204

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
“Once again God is created in the image of man” - From your post above, really?[/quote]Yes, it is a common practice so “Once again God is created in the image of man” is a perfectly legitimate statement. Not that GOD is actually created, but in the mind of the person postulating the erroneous view, he is like them. [/quote]…No, God is not created in the image of man. Man is created in the image of God.[/quote]I agree because that’s what the Word of God says. However, even many who will affirm the truth of man’s creation in God’s image will upon further conversation inadvertently describe a god that sounds suspiciously like them and alarmingly not like the God revealed in the pages of scripture.
[/quote]Then state that.
[/quote]I did. At least that was my honest intent. If I failed to articulate my thoughts adequately I apologize.
[/quote]

Ok.

205

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
You claim to love Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Mormons while hating their churches.[/quote]I do. My heart bleeds for their redemption. [quote]forlife wrote:You claim Paul would love you while condemning your apostasy, if the Catholic church were God’s church.[/quote]He would. A 5 second affair to prove.[quote]forlife wrote:Yet you believe God hates both the sinner and the sin?

Maybe you don’t believe that after all?[/quote]He can do it and we can’t. As a fallen and sinful man myself I am in no position to hate anybody. He is the thrice holy most exalted God of all creation. He is. I addressed this in the holiness thread.

Sin is it’s own magnificent evidence. People just cannot allow a God that is absolutely above THEM. I will, by His grace, conceive of no other.[/quote]

Of course people can allow a God that is absolutely above them. The difference is that you believe this God hates sinners, while others believe He loves all of His creation, while hating the sin itself.

How do you explain the declaration in 1 John that God is Love? The very definition of perfection is nothing else but Love. God is above us, not because He hates sinners, but because He loves perfectly and invites all to come unto Him to dwell in His presence forever.

I don’t understand worshiping a God that is capable of hatred. It is the antitheses of the God of the New Testament, although I do see a God capable of hatred in the Old Testament.

206

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<<< He loves the people and hates the organizations, it’s God who hates Catholic, JW’s and Mormons. So I guess, he’s better than God…[/quote]
Psalm 5:5, “The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,”
Psalm 11:5, “The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”

God’s hatred is good because it is God who is doing the hating. I am not allowed to hate my fellow man because he is my fellow man and no worse than I am so it is I who must hate sin and love the sinner. Once again God is created in the image of man and alleged to love what He clearly hates. It is amazing grace indeed that God would so love those deserving His hatred that He would pay in His own person to have them as His family.

It is the violation of this very principle that makes the self righteous pharisees of Westboro so wrong. I wonder if Forlife feels that I have treated him like those people do. I wonder if he believes that I hate him. I do actually wonder that. Maybe he does. It would sadden me to learn that he did.[/quote]

No, I believe you try to love people regardless of the choices they make. However, I disagree with your view that God hates sinners. It makes no sense to me, is inconsistent with my read of the new testament, and is the opposite of everything Jesus taught.

I noticed that the 2 scriptures you cited were from the old testament. Do you believe that Jesus lacked love and compassion for sinners?

207

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
You claim to love Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Mormons while hating their churches.[/quote]I do. My heart bleeds for their redemption.[/quote]

Please, spare me, or us. Do not bleed for us, don’t feel sorry for us, do nothing for us, we don’t need it nor do we want it. There are plenty of folks who have no faith and ignore or dislike God, bleed for them.

I would sooner be an atheist than to think like you do, so if you think that is your path for ‘redemption’, to ‘convert’ us; you can forget it. I love my faith, I ain’t leaving it God willing, for if I do I will surely be damned.

I love my evangelical brethren, I can only think that your hatred is a result of an incredible bastardization of truth and religion. I would encourage you to seek the truth, but you have to accept that you are wrong in this case.

208

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
“Once again God is created in the image of man” - From your post above, really?[/quote]Yes, it is a common practice so “Once again God is created in the image of man” is a perfectly legitimate statement. Not that GOD is actually created, but in the mind of the person postulating the erroneous view, he is like them. [/quote]…No, God is not created in the image of man. Man is created in the image of God.[/quote]I agree because that’s what the Word of God says. However, even many who will affirm the truth of man’s creation in God’s image will upon further conversation inadvertently describe a god that sounds suspiciously like them and alarmingly not like the God revealed in the pages of scripture.
[/quote]

If God created us in His image, it makes sense that He would command us to love as He loves. It’s blatantly obvious that Jesus taught us to love all men, as He loves all men.

Matthew 5:43-48

God is a God of Love, not hate.

209

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<<< He loves the people and hates the organizations, it’s God who hates Catholic, JW’s and Mormons. So I guess, he’s better than God…[/quote]
Psalm 5:5, “The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,”
Psalm 11:5, “The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”

God’s hatred is good because it is God who is doing the hating. I am not allowed to hate my fellow man because he is my fellow man and no worse than I am so it is I who must hate sin and love the sinner. Once again God is created in the image of man and alleged to love what He clearly hates. It is amazing grace indeed that God would so love those deserving His hatred that He would pay in His own person to have them as His family.

It is the violation of this very principle that makes the self righteous pharisees of Westboro so wrong. I wonder if Forlife feels that I have treated him like those people do. I wonder if he believes that I hate him. I do actually wonder that. Maybe he does. It would sadden me to learn that he did.[/quote]

It is inconsistent with the New Covenant for God to hate the world in which he created. John 3:16 is clear. Further in John he goes on to describe to world as an evil place a place of wickedness, yet he gave himself to redeem it, all of it. One need only to choose to be a part of Christ’s sacrifice.

I find you very Pharasitic and fundamentalist. Here is a example of the problem with such thinking.
Example, bin laden thinks he is righteous before God and Man too and he is as convinced of his salvation as you are. Further, he has scripture to back it up. The fact that you consider his faith a false one is irrelevant. The problem is, you cannot prove he’s wrong and you are right for you are both justified in faith…He thinks you are going to hell and you think he is.

Now, the problem with bin laden is his works. His works are evil and from evil and his ‘faith’ cannot save him from it.
This exemplifies the error of fundamentalism, it’s to narrow and simply not enough. God doesn’t just exist in an old book, he is alive here and now.

210

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<<< He loves the people and hates the organizations, it’s God who hates Catholic, JW’s and Mormons. So I guess, he’s better than God…[/quote]
Psalm 5:5, “The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,”
Psalm 11:5, “The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”

God’s hatred is good because it is God who is doing the hating. I am not allowed to hate my fellow man because he is my fellow man and no worse than I am so it is I who must hate sin and love the sinner. Once again God is created in the image of man and alleged to love what He clearly hates. It is amazing grace indeed that God would so love those deserving His hatred that He would pay in His own person to have them as His family.

It is the violation of this very principle that makes the self righteous pharisees of Westboro so wrong. I wonder if Forlife feels that I have treated him like those people do. I wonder if he believes that I hate him. I do actually wonder that. Maybe he does. It would sadden me to learn that he did.[/quote]

No, I believe you try to love people regardless of the choices they make. However, I disagree with your view that God hates sinners. It makes no sense to me, is inconsistent with my read of the new testament, and is the opposite of everything Jesus taught.

I noticed that the 2 scriptures you cited were from the old testament. Do you believe that Jesus lacked love and compassion for sinners? [/quote]

You are quite wise forlife, what made you become agnostic? If you don’t/ can’t share I understand but you have a good understanding of faith…

211

How are Catholics being grouped with Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses? Catholics believe in Jesus Christ as the eternally begotten Son of God who was crucified and resurrected for our sins and who is one substance with the Father. Mormons believe Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, Elohim was some outerspace being, and the Trinity is false.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus was the archangel Michael in human form. They also deny him being one with the Father as well as the Holy Spirit not being God. They think only 144,000 people will be in heaven. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses may need your prayers for salvation but not Catholics.

212

Thanks Pat. I’m not the stereotypical agnostic/atheist who has an axe to grind, is angry/bitter toward religion, or thinks believers are idiots. I had a very deep, personal relationship with God and understand the joy, purpose, and comfort that flow from that relationship.

I’ve been accused of turning agnostic to justify being gay, but that isn’t it either. I have gay friends who have reconciled their religious beliefs with their sexual orientation, and continue to believe in God. It’s different for me. I take these questions very seriously, and would never turn my back on something I genuinely believed to be true. I think any price is worth paying for eternal joy, no matter how miserable you may be in the short term. However, I also believe that it is tragic to pay such a price based on beliefs that don’t reflect reality.

And that’s the heart of it. I’ve been trained in the scientific method, and believe that it is important to base our beliefs on reliable facts. My background is in psychology, and I know how human emotions can have a profound impact on our beliefs, and not always at the conscious level. I’ve seen those biases affect my own beliefs, although I didn’t realize it at the time. For that reason, I’m very wary of any belief based on faith alone, without reliable supporting evidence that it is actually true.

Hope that makes sense :slight_smile:

213

[quote]BBriere wrote:
How are Catholics being grouped with Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses? Catholics believe in Jesus Christ as the eternally begotten Son of God who was crucified and resurrected for our sins and who is one substance with the Father. Mormons believe Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, Elohim was some outerspace being, and the Trinity is false.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus was the archangel Michael in human form. They also deny him being one with the Father as well as the Holy Spirit not being God. They think only 144,000 people will be in heaven. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses may need your prayers for salvation but not Catholics. [/quote]

Because reportedly, we’re all going to hell according to Tirib.

214

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
How are Catholics being grouped with Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses? Catholics believe in Jesus Christ as the eternally begotten Son of God who was crucified and resurrected for our sins and who is one substance with the Father. Mormons believe Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, Elohim was some outerspace being, and the Trinity is false.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus was the archangel Michael in human form. They also deny him being one with the Father as well as the Holy Spirit not being God. They think only 144,000 people will be in heaven. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses may need your prayers for salvation but not Catholics. [/quote]

Because reportedly, we’re all going to hell according to Tirib.[/quote]

My aunt, who was Baptist, had the same feeling about my grandmother, who was Catholic. She even refused to attend the funeral because she thought that she was going to hell for her Catholic beliefs. Nothing of what my grandmother professed sounded out of the ordinary to me. Ultimately, I guess it’s up to God on our final destination in the afterlife.

215

[quote]forlife wrote:
Thanks Pat. I’m not the stereotypical agnostic/atheist who has an axe to grind, is angry/bitter toward religion, or thinks believers are idiots. I had a very deep, personal relationship with God and understand the joy, purpose, and comfort that flow from that relationship.

I’ve been accused of turning agnostic to justify being gay, but that isn’t it either. I have gay friends who have reconciled their religious beliefs with their sexual orientation, and continue to believe in God. It’s different for me. I take these questions very seriously, and would never turn my back on something I genuinely believed to be true. I think any price is worth paying for eternal joy, no matter how miserable you may be in the short term. However, I also believe that it is tragic to pay such a price based on beliefs that don’t reflect reality.

And that’s the heart of it. I’ve been trained in the scientific method, and believe that it is important to base our beliefs on reliable facts. My background is in psychology, and I know how human emotions can have a profound impact on our beliefs, and not always at the conscious level. I’ve seen those biases affect my own beliefs, although I didn’t realize it at the time. For that reason, I’m very wary of any belief based on faith alone, without reliable supporting evidence that it is actually true.

Hope that makes sense :slight_smile: [/quote]

It does sort of, if I were a biblical literalist, it would be problematic for me. I actually see it the other way, I too was formally trained in Psychology and Philosophy and I see it all as unified.
As you well know, I too am a huge fan of science but I do not see faith, religion and God to be incompatible, but the opposite. I see them as linked ultimately. I see science as a discovery of the wonders of the God made existence.

I gotta say you are talented in matters of faith; wiser than most. I can only imagine that your interest in science and such has made you wiser in the matter of faith.
Had to, biblical literalism, when it requires a denial of truth leads to darkness in truth. That’s what I think…

216

I agree that ultimately, all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. If there really is a God, that being is part of the fabric of truth as sure as the sun, moon, and stars.

At the same time, I don’t believe we can know what is true unless there is reliable supporting evidence for that knowledge. If there is a God and some day I stand before Him, that will add to my knowledge. But lacking such evidence, I can’t with integrity claim to believe it is actually true.

I believe in the pursuit of truth, no matter where it takes me. In that sense, I’m actually very Catholic, in the classic sense of the word :slight_smile:

217

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
How are Catholics being grouped with Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses? Catholics believe in Jesus Christ as the eternally begotten Son of God who was crucified and resurrected for our sins and who is one substance with the Father. Mormons believe Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, Elohim was some outerspace being, and the Trinity is false.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus was the archangel Michael in human form. They also deny him being one with the Father as well as the Holy Spirit not being God. They think only 144,000 people will be in heaven. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses may need your prayers for salvation but not Catholics. [/quote]

Because reportedly, we’re all going to hell according to Tirib.[/quote]

Except a few, which he hasn’t explained besides the grace of God how they’ll be saved.

218

[quote]forlife wrote:
I agree that ultimately, all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. If there really is a God, that being is part of the fabric of truth as sure as the sun, moon, and stars.

At the same time, I don’t believe we can know what is true unless there is reliable supporting evidence for that knowledge. If there is a God and some day I stand before Him, that will add to my knowledge. But lacking such evidence, I can’t with integrity claim to believe it is actually true.

I believe in the pursuit of truth, no matter where it takes me. In that sense, I’m actually very Catholic, in the classic sense of the word :slight_smile: [/quote]

Do you know who is Justin Martyr? Not, like you studied him, but know the general background of Justin Martyr?

219

[quote]forlife wrote:
<<< However, I disagree with your view that God hates sinners. >>>[/quote]It’s not my view. It is also the view incidentally of the Catholic friar that Brother Chris gave us the link to. I agree with almost everything he said in that homily actually. >>>[quote]forlife wrote: It makes no sense to me, I is inconsistent with my read of the new testament, >>> [/quote]I understand. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< and is the opposite of everything Jesus taught. >>>[/quote]God’s hatred of His enemies is absolutely consistent with every last syllable Jesus uttered. It could not be otherwise. [quote]forlife wrote: <<<I noticed that the 2 scriptures you cited were from the old testament. Do you believe that Jesus lacked love and compassion for sinners? [/quote]God does not change. (Malachi 3:6) and Jesus Christ also being God is the same yesterday today and forever (Hebrews 13:7). Every last description by God of Himself in the OT is unquestionably just as true today as it was before ever the world was. No I do not believe Jesus lacked anything necessary to His ministry nor do I believe that He loves everybody either. The world does not ultimately mean everybody in John 3:16 any more than it does when John says in his first epistle that the “whole world lies in the power of the evil one”.

220

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
How are Catholics being grouped with Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses? Catholics believe in Jesus Christ as the eternally begotten Son of God who was crucified and resurrected for our sins and who is one substance with the Father. Mormons believe Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, Elohim was some outerspace being, and the Trinity is false.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus was the archangel Michael in human form. They also deny him being one with the Father as well as the Holy Spirit not being God. They think only 144,000 people will be in heaven. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses may need your prayers for salvation but not Catholics. [/quote]

Because reportedly, we’re all going to hell according to Tirib.[/quote]

My aunt, who was Baptist, had the same feeling about my grandmother, who was Catholic. She even refused to attend the funeral because she thought that she was going to hell for her Catholic beliefs. Nothing of what my grandmother professed sounded out of the ordinary to me. Ultimately, I guess it’s up to God on our final destination in the afterlife. [/quote]

Ultimately it’s up to us…Otherwise what’s the point? If we’re predestined there’s no point to any of it because you cannot change the outcome.

I love my evangelical brethren, but it’s the behavior of those like your aunt that drive me nuts. That’s archaic biblical literalist thinking that led to the dark ages.

No offense your aunt, but who can claim righteousness before God when they try to pretend they know his mind and make judgments like that? As a matter of fact making judgments like that were specifically called out by Jesus himself as sinful.

There seems to be no middle road on the “Do not judge lest ye be judged” tenet. One side says you can’t judge anything the other says that based on the bible they can judge everything. I wish people understood this with out having to write a dissertation on it.