[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
I was thinking about this last night and came to the conclusion that the greatest lie the devil told was that our actions don’t have consequences. This is the lie he told Eve ‘you will not surely die’. This is also the lie of sola fide ‘what you do doesn’t matter as long as you have faith’.[/quote]
Who believes this?
And please don’t say me. Cuz I never said that 
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
I was thinking about this last night and came to the conclusion that the greatest lie the devil told was that our actions don’t have consequences. This is the lie he told Eve ‘you will not surely die’. This is also the lie of sola fide ‘what you do doesn’t matter as long as you have faith’.[/quote]
Who believes this?
And please don’t say me. Cuz I never said that ;)[/quote]
Well, I never intended to insinuate that you believed this I was merely stating the facts of the idea’s origination. I think many people that say they believe/ascribe to sola fide do not really. They may say something like it’s faith that matters, but you only have faith when you display it in action (you’ll know us by our fruit sort of thing). This is the separation of justification and sanctification that a large portion of protestants make. The Catholic view is that justification and sanctification are one in the same process, so often times in these discussions if we would but realize it we are saying the same thing with different words (maybe not perfectly aligned, but closer than some think). Oh, and I do think that Martin Luther did believe this. How else could he say (I’ll paraphrase as I don’t know the quote directly) sin boldly that grace abound all the more.
It can be insidious. Not to say anyone here is doing this, but this is the danger of saying faith alone is what matters:
I have faith in Christ.
I have been born again. I KNOW that Jesus has saved me.
Therefore, anything sinful I do for the rest of my life will be covered by the atonement of Christ.
We’re all human, after all. We all sin. The difference is that Jesus has atoned for my sins, now and forever.
My sins don’t really matter from this point forward. Jesus will take care of it all, because I KNOW I will be saved no matter what.
It gives people carte blanche to do whatever they want to do, however despicable, because they KNOW Jesus has saved them.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Wow…in all charity…this is an emotional, non-logical reply. Your reply did not address the issue of word anathema. It was a purely irrational and emotional comment that shows your complete and utter bigotry and hatred of not only the Mystical Body of Christ, but all of those included in it, including myself.
Your ignorance prevails you, Tirib. And I, now, have no doubt that the father of lies has deceived you.
P.S. You have the Judas syndrome…you base your opinion and hatred on the Catholic Church by those who do not follow the Catholic teachings? Tirib, your logic make no sense, that is like saying Christ isn’t true because Judas betrayed him.[/quote](Yes, I read every last syllable). Now we’re getting somewhere. I’m interested to hear what some others may say.
[/quote]
Wow, I’m sorry Tirib, maybe I was delusional to think myself a friend of yours. I obviously am not.[/quote]Let me clarify please. I said “You should have had no doubt a long time ago my friend. The boys at Trent sure wouldn’t have.” in response to “I, now, have no doubt that the father of lies has deceived you.”. I have no ill will toward you Chris. None. Quite the contrary.
Something just this minute became clear to me. There is zero sarcasm in what follows now. I’ve been frustrated trying to understand why you guys cannot grasp the concept of my hating the Roman Catholic Church and loving YOU. It’s been staring me right in the face the whole time. Your whole intuition is built on the premise that your individual persons, the RCC and God almighty are all mutually identified. In essence that you’re all the same thing. Not that you would ever state that you are God, but only that you instinctively cannot fathom any of the three by itself in relation to creation or human history. A sort of ecclesiastical trinity, with a small t. In that light it simply follows that you would regard hatred for Rome and the papacy as the same thing as hatred for you. Not so, though I will attempt to be more aware of this going forward.
I view the mystical body of Christ as anybody and everybody who winds up in heaven. What Earthly body they associated with, while not irrelevant. in itself dictates nothing. What do you think.? That there’s a “back of the bus” area for us “separated brethren” in heaven? Think with me Chris. If we both die in the next minute and I am at your side praising His name in eternity then either my view of the “mystical body of Christ” is also God’s view (or actually God’s view is my view) or the most tortured in house logic of all time must be attributed to the infinite intellect that IS almighty God. How can it not be invisible if He saves both us. One adoring the RCC and one spitting all over her? But if He did save us both and we find out that the mystical body of Christ is in fact invisible, then your churches authority goes right out the window.
Of course you will reply with some modern revision showing how the RCC can have her authority and an evil father of lies deceived attack dog like me can still go to heaven. I deny that categorically. If the RCC is Christ’s church and Paul were alive today he would declare me lost and in need of salvation after 60 seconds of reading these posts. And he would do it while declaring his love for me. I also hate the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (among many others) because they are blasphemous and idolatrous communions that promote paganism in the guise of Christianity. I do not hate the members of those non Christian cults.
I would cringe to be witness to you attempting to explain to God why YOU did not hate those organizations as He does. If you do hate them, do you also hate the people in them? Are you catching on? Your saying “yeah but that’s them, not Christ’s one true holy and apostolic church” doesn’t help your explanation. Either you accept false religions that God clearly hates or you also hate them yet love their adherents. Just like I say I’m doing with the RCC.
[/quote]
You claim to love Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Mormons while hating their churches.
You claim Paul would love you while condemning your apostasy, if the Catholic church were God’s church.
Yet you believe God hates both the sinner and the sin?
Maybe you don’t believe that after all?
[/quote]
It’s the retarded notion of theology when this is what you believe:
http://www.godhatesfags.com/
[quote]forlife wrote:
It can be insidious. Not to say anyone here is doing this, but this is the danger of saying faith alone is what matters:
I have faith in Christ.
I have been born again. I KNOW that Jesus has saved me.
Therefore, anything sinful I do for the rest of my life will be covered by the atonement of Christ.
We’re all human, after all. We all sin. The difference is that Jesus has atoned for my sins, now and forever.
My sins don’t really matter from this point forward. Jesus will take care of it all, because I KNOW I will be saved no matter what.
It gives people carte blanche to do whatever they want to do, however despicable, because they KNOW Jesus has saved them.[/quote]
No, because having true faith in Christ would mean that you would want to follow his commands and not sin.
A practicing sinner does not have faith in Christ.
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
It can be insidious. Not to say anyone here is doing this, but this is the danger of saying faith alone is what matters:
I have faith in Christ.
I have been born again. I KNOW that Jesus has saved me.
Therefore, anything sinful I do for the rest of my life will be covered by the atonement of Christ.
We’re all human, after all. We all sin. The difference is that Jesus has atoned for my sins, now and forever.
My sins don’t really matter from this point forward. Jesus will take care of it all, because I KNOW I will be saved no matter what.
It gives people carte blanche to do whatever they want to do, however despicable, because they KNOW Jesus has saved them.[/quote]
No, because having true faith in Christ would mean that you would want to follow his commands and not sin.
A practicing sinner does not have faith in Christ.[/quote]
All have sinned, including the most faithful, and fall short of the glory of God.
If faith meant perfection, nobody on this planet except Jesus would have faith.
Therefore, even people claiming to have real faith recognize that they can and will sin for the rest of their lives.
The problem is that some of these people use this recognition and call on the grace of God to excuse all kinds of atrocities.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
It can be insidious. Not to say anyone here is doing this, but this is the danger of saying faith alone is what matters:
I have faith in Christ.
I have been born again. I KNOW that Jesus has saved me.
Therefore, anything sinful I do for the rest of my life will be covered by the atonement of Christ.
We’re all human, after all. We all sin. The difference is that Jesus has atoned for my sins, now and forever.
My sins don’t really matter from this point forward. Jesus will take care of it all, because I KNOW I will be saved no matter what.
It gives people carte blanche to do whatever they want to do, however despicable, because they KNOW Jesus has saved them.[/quote]
No, because having true faith in Christ would mean that you would want to follow his commands and not sin.
A practicing sinner does not have faith in Christ.[/quote]
All have sinned, including the most faithful, and fall short of the glory of God.
If faith meant perfection, nobody on this planet except Jesus would have faith.
Therefore, even people claiming to have real faith recognize that they can and will sin for the rest of their lives.
The problem is that some of these people use this recognition and call on the grace of God to excuse all kinds of atrocities. [/quote]
The grace of God is sufficient for all things. However, calling on the grace doesn’t mean you’ll get it.
I agree pat, but these Christians claim they know they are saved, thus the grace of God is sufficient for them, no matter what they may do.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Wow…in all charity…this is an emotional, non-logical reply. Your reply did not address the issue of word anathema. It was a purely irrational and emotional comment that shows your complete and utter bigotry and hatred of not only the Mystical Body of Christ, but all of those included in it, including myself.
Your ignorance prevails you, Tirib. And I, now, have no doubt that the father of lies has deceived you.
P.S. You have the Judas syndrome…you base your opinion and hatred on the Catholic Church by those who do not follow the Catholic teachings? Tirib, your logic make no sense, that is like saying Christ isn’t true because Judas betrayed him.[/quote](Yes, I read every last syllable). Now we’re getting somewhere. I’m interested to hear what some others may say.
[/quote]
Wow, I’m sorry Tirib, maybe I was delusional to think myself a friend of yours. I obviously am not.[/quote]Let me clarify please. I said “You should have had no doubt a long time ago my friend. The boys at Trent sure wouldn’t have.” in response to “I, now, have no doubt that the father of lies has deceived you.”. I have no ill will toward you Chris. None. Quite the contrary.
Something just this minute became clear to me. There is zero sarcasm in what follows now. I’ve been frustrated trying to understand why you guys cannot grasp the concept of my hating the Roman Catholic Church and loving YOU. It’s been staring me right in the face the whole time. Your whole intuition is built on the premise that your individual persons, the RCC and God almighty are all mutually identified. In essence that you’re all the same thing. Not that you would ever state that you are God, but only that you instinctively cannot fathom any of the three by itself in relation to creation or human history. A sort of ecclesiastical trinity, with a small t. In that light it simply follows that you would regard hatred for Rome and the papacy as the same thing as hatred for you. Not so, though I will attempt to be more aware of this going forward.
I view the mystical body of Christ as anybody and everybody who winds up in heaven. What Earthly body they associated with, while not irrelevant. in itself dictates nothing. What do you think.? That there’s a “back of the bus” area for us “separated brethren” in heaven? Think with me Chris. If we both die in the next minute and I am at your side praising His name in eternity then either my view of the “mystical body of Christ” is also God’s view (or actually God’s view is my view) or the most tortured in house logic of all time must be attributed to the infinite intellect that IS almighty God. How can it not be invisible if He saves both us. One adoring the RCC and one spitting all over her? But if He did save us both and we find out that the mystical body of Christ is in fact invisible, then your churches authority goes right out the window.
Of course you will reply with some modern revision showing how the RCC can have her authority and an evil father of lies deceived attack dog like me can still go to heaven. I deny that categorically. If the RCC is Christ’s church and Paul were alive today he would declare me lost and in need of salvation after 60 seconds of reading these posts. And he would do it while declaring his love for me. I also hate the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (among many others) because they are blasphemous and idolatrous communions that promote paganism in the guise of Christianity. I do not hate the members of those non Christian cults.
I would cringe to be witness to you attempting to explain to God why YOU did not hate those organizations as He does. If you do hate them, do you also hate the people in them? Are you catching on? Your saying “yeah but that’s them, not Christ’s one true holy and apostolic church” doesn’t help your explanation. Either you accept false religions that God clearly hates or you also hate them yet love their adherents. Just like I say I’m doing with the RCC.
[/quote]
You claim to love Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Mormons while hating their churches.
You claim Paul would love you while condemning your apostasy, if the Catholic church were God’s church.
Yet you believe God hates both the sinner and the sin?
Maybe you don’t believe that after all?
[/quote]
He loves the people and hates the organizations, it’s God who hates Catholic, JW’s and Mormons. So I guess, he’s better than God…
1 John 4:8
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
It can be insidious. Not to say anyone here is doing this, but this is the danger of saying faith alone is what matters:
I have faith in Christ.
I have been born again. I KNOW that Jesus has saved me.
Therefore, anything sinful I do for the rest of my life will be covered by the atonement of Christ.
We’re all human, after all. We all sin. The difference is that Jesus has atoned for my sins, now and forever.
My sins don’t really matter from this point forward. Jesus will take care of it all, because I KNOW I will be saved no matter what.
It gives people carte blanche to do whatever they want to do, however despicable, because they KNOW Jesus has saved them.[/quote]
No, because having true faith in Christ would mean that you would want to follow his commands and not sin.
A practicing sinner does not have faith in Christ.[/quote]
What do you consider a practicing sinner?
[quote]forlife wrote:
You claim to love Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Mormons while hating their churches.[/quote]I do. My heart bleeds for their redemption. [quote]forlife wrote:You claim Paul would love you while condemning your apostasy, if the Catholic church were God’s church.[/quote]He would. A 5 second affair to prove.[quote]forlife wrote:Yet you believe God hates both the sinner and the sin?
Maybe you don’t believe that after all?[/quote]He can do it and we can’t. As a fallen and sinful man myself I am in no position to hate anybody. He is the thrice holy most exalted God of all creation. He is. I addressed this in the holiness thread.
Sin is it’s own magnificent evidence. People just cannot allow a God that is absolutely above THEM. I will, by His grace, conceive of no other.
[quote]pat wrote:
<<<< He loves the people and hates the organizations, it’s God who hates Catholic, JW’s and Mormons. So I guess, he’s better than God…[/quote]
Psalm 5:5, “The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,”
Psalm 11:5, “The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”
God’s hatred is good because it is God who is doing the hating. I am not allowed to hate my fellow man because he is my fellow man and no worse than I am so it is I who must hate sin and love the sinner. Once again God is created in the image of man and alleged to love what He clearly hates. It is amazing grace indeed that God would so love those deserving His hatred that He would pay in His own person to have them as His family.
It is the violation of this very principle that makes the self righteous pharisees of Westboro so wrong. I wonder if Forlife feels that I have treated him like those people do. I wonder if he believes that I hate him. I do actually wonder that. Maybe he does. It would sadden me to learn that he did.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
<<<< He loves the people and hates the organizations, it’s God who hates Catholic, JW’s and Mormons. So I guess, he’s better than God…[/quote]
Psalm 5:5, “The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,”
Psalm 11:5, “The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”
God’s hatred is good because it is God who is doing the hating. I am not allowed to hate my fellow man because he is my fellow man and no worse than I am so it is I who must hate sin and love the sinner. Once again God is created in the image of man and alleged to love what He clearly hates. It is amazing grace indeed that God would so love those deserving His hatred that He would pay in His own person to have them as His family.
It is the violation of this very principle that makes the self righteous pharisees of Westboro so wrong. I wonder if Forlife feels that I have treated him like those people do. I wonder if he believes that I hate him. I do actually wonder that. Maybe he does. It would sadden me to learn that he did.[/quote]
I don’t know if this was a Freudian slip or a mistype. He isn’t alleged to love what he hates, he loved the world so much he gave his only begotten Son.
No slip at all Chris. 1st John 5:19 says that “the whole world lies in the power of the evil one”. I do not lie in the power of the evil one. I suspect you can name somewhere in the world that you also believe is not in the power of the evil one. This is called a literary or communication device. The bible has lots of em. God “saved” Israel many times while he was killing most of them. His leaving a remnant was considered faithfulness to His covenant with Abraham.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
No slip at all Chris. 1st John 5:19 says that “the whole world lies in the power of the evil one”. I do not lie in the power of the evil one. I suspect you can name somewhere in the world that you also believe is not in the power of the evil one. This is called a literary or communication device. The bible has lots of em. God “saved” Israel many times while he was killing most of them. His leaving a remnant was considered faithfulness to His covenant with Abraham.[/quote]
I don’t know what you’re talking about, but look at the bolded part of my quote of your post.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
No slip at all Chris. 1st John 5:19 says that “the whole world lies in the power of the evil one”. I do not lie in the power of the evil one. I suspect you can name somewhere in the world that you also believe is not in the power of the evil one. This is called a literary or communication device. The bible has lots of em. God “saved” Israel many times while he was killing most of them. His leaving a remnant was considered faithfulness to His covenant with Abraham.[/quote]I don’t know what you’re talking about, but look at the bolded part of my quote of your post.[/quote]Yes, that is what people do. They create gods that act like them. So once again, asserting that God “loves the sinner, but hates the sin” when in reality that’s what WE’RE supposed to do, is an attempt to force God into the mold of man. I misunderstood your emphasis.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
No slip at all Chris. 1st John 5:19 says that “the whole world lies in the power of the evil one”. I do not lie in the power of the evil one. I suspect you can name somewhere in the world that you also believe is not in the power of the evil one. This is called a literary or communication device. The bible has lots of em. God “saved” Israel many times while he was killing most of them. His leaving a remnant was considered faithfulness to His covenant with Abraham.[/quote]I don’t know what you’re talking about, but look at the bolded part of my quote of your post.[/quote]Yes, that is what people do. They create gods that act like them. So once again, asserting that God “loves the sinner, but hates the sin” when in reality that’s what WE’RE supposed to do, is an attempt to force God into the mold of man. I misunderstood your emphasis.
[/quote]
“Once again God is created in the image of man” - From your post above, really?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
“Once again God is created in the image of man” - From your post above, really?[/quote]Yes, it is a common practice so “Once again God is created in the image of man” is a perfectly legitimate statement. Not that GOD is actually created, but in the mind of the person postulating the erroneous view, he is like them.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
“Once again God is created in the image of man” - From your post above, really?[/quote]Yes, it is a common practice so “Once again God is created in the image of man” is a perfectly legitimate statement. Not that GOD is actually created, but in the mind of the person postulating the erroneous view, he is like them. [/quote]
…No, God is not created in the image of man. Man is created in the image of God.