jumping = genetics… if you have a poor vert with those numbers you are simply not physically suited to jump and never will be able to. with specific training you might be able to tack on a few inches, but I’m not sure what the point of that would be
I’ll agree that not everyone can achieve a world class vertical. However, I believe if a person trained for it, everyone could achieve a 30’’ vertical if they really wanted to. Maybe even more then that. A lot of people just sell themselves short.
i wouldn’t call 30" vertical anything to write home about…(although, realistically, an athlete with a legit 30" standing vertical is actually pretty good)
Don’t know if this was mentioned already but what about losing some fat mass? Making yourself lighter while keeping you current strength with grantee an increase in vertical jump.
-IF you maintain strength levels
[quote]brian.m wrote:
-IF you maintain strength levels[/quote]
yes of course IF…
Have you seen that T.V. show on discovery where a professional NBA star was fitted with 15lbs of football gear and couldn’t even hit his mark where he normally would? Weight does have a big difference in max vertical jump potential.
[quote]Fuzzyapple wrote:
Have you seen that T.V. show on discovery where a professional NBA star was fitted with 15lbs of football gear and couldn’t even hit his mark where he normally would? Weight does have a big difference in max vertical jump potential. [/quote]
Do you mean when Cuttino Mobiley(sp?) was on Sports Science on Fox Sports? I remember that and I agree that weight really affects jumping. However, I feel like its kind of hard to have a diet where you’re cutting and maintaining your strength. Just have a clean diet and let the fat come off when it does. I wouldnt say to actually have fatloss as a main goal unless a person is really overweight.
[quote]brian.m wrote:
CoolColJ, thanks for the response, i took it too literally but that makes sense (and also explains why my vert hasnt moved as much as i hoped it would, as the only time i stop squatting is for injury usually, definitly something to consider! thanks alot[/quote]
from Kelly Baggett’s The Top 10 Mistakes When Training For Vertical Jump article
Big Tex: Most athletes go wrong in that they don?t do enough strength training. This guy has the opposite problem. Big Tex is strong, tough, and proud of it. He has strength that rivals that of powerlifters but he has a love affair with the squat rack and will have a big time aversion towards getting away from it more than a few days at a time.
Strength training boosts up your ability to jump but in order to fully express that ability you SOMETIMES need to cut back on the heavy loading for a while. Nothing stimulates all the muscle fibers in your legs like performing a full squat. However, that stimulation can sometimes induce a chronic low grade state of fatigue in your legs. That fatigue can mask explosiveness. This isn?t usually much of an issue for a guy squatting 200 pounds, but if you’re in the 2x BW squat range it can be an issue. After several weeks or months of consistent strength work it often helps to back off on it and engage in more explosive work in order to fully display the explosiveness you?ve gained.
Also Kelly Baggett hit a 42 inch vertical jump not 40 
Measured by hitting his head on a 9’3" suspended tile
45 off a run. 405lb fullsquat at 160lbs = 2.5xBW
ahem i dont know anybody like that ahem
haha ef, thanks for the reminder CoolColJ, i’m actually training specifically for Olympic meets so i have something to work towards (not specifically for the vertical jump anymore, as injuries have made my goals change a little bit from the past)
and just to get stronger in general, but even the olympic stuff is fast/explosive enough that i would probably definitly benefit from all the squat volume…sometimes i get so caught up in it i lose sight of the purpose a little bit…(this is what happens when you try to rush things i suppose)
-thanks for the reminder
(besides, i still think a big vert is bad ass and still do my plyos in hopes of one myself one day!)
[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
you keep squatting, just dial it way back in terms of volume, frequency and intensity. Enough to maintain your size/strength, but not enough to fatigue. 2x6 at 70% should be enough from personal experience so far. Or some form of paused explosive squats for triples has worked well in the past.
Will have to get back to you on that when my first major deload comes up after I reach my short term squatting target
I normally do 2x6 at 83-85% to build my squat up, or anywhere bewteen 80-85% for 2 main worksets of between 5-8 reps. I’m low volume, low frequency kind of guy, but its working real well. My squat is improving at a rapid rate!
Leg and hip size is going up as well, as expected
Also jumping and landing from jumps works your lower body and back intensively, especially when you can jump over 30 inches. We are talking about >10 times bodyweight forces here. Not something a squat can match, so it will help maintaining leg strength. But you still need to squat and other stuff to maintain the muscle mass
When your a low level squatter/jumper yeah you can work everything intensely at once and get results in both, but sooner or later that stops working. If you need another 50lbs on your squat to get those extra inches in a fairly short time frame, your going to need to bust some ass in the squat rack, and that will kill your hops. Some people loose more than others, I have lost as much as 3 inches standing and 5-6 off a run.
Or you can baby yourself and try and gain those 50lbs over a year and work your jump at the same time, and get a trickle of gain on each. Choice is yours. But IMO it won’t work as well for the more advanced trainee. Not an effecient use of training time IMO[/quote]
How do you plan these cycles? Do you have a set time already planned, or do you just focus on squat until you get to where you want to be, then focus on jumping?
Also what should jump training look like when still heavily training the squat? I just do 6-8 sets of jumps once a week on dynamic day.
I’m conorh’s training partner, I’m not entirely sure i believe in the whole genetic jumper thing, mainly because my entire family both father and mother side are shorter wrestler types that really aren?t that strong/explosive. I believe it’s what you do when you are younger that helps develop your aptitude for explosiveness, yes you can teach it and yes some people initially have it, that proves something, but which point I’m not sure. all the bullshit i did as a little kid was comparable to the Olympic German jumper athletic training, i was a really good one footed jumper up until i stopped playing basketball and doing some weight training. at about 5’6" or 5’7" in 8th grade i could dunk a mini basketball(small hands, couldn’t hold anything else), after weight training i can 2 footed stand still jump higher than i could and easily grab rim from a standing jump at 5’8" but my 1 footed jump is quite bad right now after weight training.
i believe my jumping ability was because of what i did as a little kid and that it carried through to my adolescence but i have lost some of it after weight training. In short I think vertical leap can be taught and that anyone can jump if they want to, yes some people may be able to jump higher than others and yes the Russian guide to Olympic lifters has a standard jump height but I think what may lead to higher jumpers is what is done early in the child?s development. Just a little insight, don?t know if it?s right or what not, just saying what I have experienced.
[quote]eggowned wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
you keep squatting, just dial it way back in terms of volume, frequency and intensity. Enough to maintain your size/strength, but not enough to fatigue. 2x6 at 70% should be enough from personal experience so far. Or some form of paused explosive squats for triples has worked well in the past.
Will have to get back to you on that when my first major deload comes up after I reach my short term squatting target
I normally do 2x6 at 83-85% to build my squat up, or anywhere between 80-85% for 2 main worksets of between 5-8 reps. I’m low volume, low frequency kind of guy, but its working real well. My squat is improving at a rapid rate!
Leg and hip size is going up as well, as expected
Also jumping and landing from jumps works your lower body and back intensively, especially when you can jump over 30 inches. We are talking about >10 times bodyweight forces here. Not something a squat can match, so it will help maintaining leg strength. But you still need to squat and other stuff to maintain the muscle mass
When your a low level squatter/jumper yeah you can work everything intensely at once and get results in both, but sooner or later that stops working. If you need another 50lbs on your squat to get those extra inches in a fairly short time frame, your going to need to bust some ass in the squat rack, and that will kill your hops. Some people loose more than others, I have lost as much as 3 inches standing and 5-6 off a run.
Or you can baby yourself and try and gain those 50lbs over a year and work your jump at the same time, and get a trickle of gain on each. Choice is yours. But IMO it won’t work as well for the more advanced trainee. Not an efficient use of training time IMO
How do you plan these cycles? Do you have a set time already planned, or do you just focus on squat until you get to where you want to be, then focus on jumping?
Also what should jump training look like when still heavily training the squat? I just do 6-8 sets of jumps once a week on dynamic day.[/quote]
well you certainly want to add a reasonable amount on the squat before you try and convert that horsepower to jump gains. 10lbs more of real strength gain on the full squat, might give you an inch, 20lbs will definitely give you an inch. If you go from 300x6 to 330x6, then yes you will see gains
I use my VJ formula to guide me. There is a calculator on Kelly Baggett’s website
I just do some basic movement drills to maintain movement efficiency before squatting. Acts as a nice warmup as well. You know mobility and dynamic warmup drills. Skipping, basic low hops and stiff legged (prime time) runs
Then 4 days later I play BBall, and try to jump, but I usually jump far lower, so I’m not gonna bother anymore
Doing a small amount of low intensity jumps is not a bad idea, depending on what rocks your boat, and your weaknesses
I only squat/weight train once a week BTW
not much different from what Kelly Baggett described here -
Except I believe jumpsquats (and olympic lifts) to be largely useless, along with any other non-specific power movements. Look at the OP for example
Even depth jumps - just go out and practise jumping, for well rested max effort attempts
Knowing that you?re probably gonna ditch what I?m fixing to say in favor of a bunch of complicated BS that will take you the next 6 months of your training time to figure out, here?s a very simple answer as to what I?d recommend you do:
-
Get stronger. Until you?re going all the way down with 300 lbs on your back you simply don?t have the raw horsepower necessary to blast 192 lbs up in the air like you?d want.
-
After you accomplish #1, shift into more explosive work.
-
There is an easy (fast) way and a hard (long) way to accomplish the above.
A: The easy way consists of going to the gym every monday and friday or Monday and Thursday. On one day knock out sets of 5 in the squat followed by some Glute Hams for sets of 6-8. On the other day knock out sets of 6-8 in the bulgarian split squat followed by some more glute hams.
Maybe do some light squats as well just to keep the feel of the movement. Try to put more weight on the bar everytime you hit Mondays workout. Do this until you can throw around 300 for reps.
Prior to your workouts on Monday and Friday, as well as on Wednesday, do a low volume of some garden variety plyometric drills such as a few sets of lateral jumps, low squat hops and low box depth jumps or whatever else you want. They all do pretty much the same
B: I?ll let others tell you about the hard way.
- Once you have accomplished #3 you will now have a bigger motor in your car and can then focus on modifying that motor to get the most out of it.
4A. Keep the same basic schedule in place. Monday and Thursday or Monday and Friday etc. On one day do some depth jumps followed by some wave loaded jump squats for sets of 5 for a total of 4-5 sets of depth jumps and 8 sets of squats. The squat weights will vary between 20-50% of your max.
Do one set with more weight followed by one set with lighter weight and alternate back and forth until you?ve done all 8 sets. At the very end of your workout you might do a few sets of 3 reps with 80% of your squat, as well as a few glutehams, just to maintain your strength.
4B. On the other weekly workout make it a workout based around jumping and sprinting for PRs. Simply go out and get warmed up and try to jump as high as possible from a variety of starts (running, single leg, standing, bouncing off a box). Maybe add in some sprints if you want.
-
When you no longer are getting consistent weekly results from 4A and 4B (which might take 3 weeks and might take a couple of months), then it?s time to start over with #1.
-
Keep repeating Steps 1 through 5 for as many years as you like until you either get to where you want to be or until you get old, gray and worn out
[quote]adarqui wrote:
J L Erwin wrote:
brian.m wrote:
J L Erwin, are you and your brother both 2 footed jumpers?
edit-what i am getting at is many of you need to start differentiating between a 2 footed jump and a single legged jump, as it is vastly different, as will training be for each style
One footed, sorry I didn’t realize you were required to jump 2 footed. Anyway, my point is that yes, jumping is a natural talent for some of us and as I stated my squat is similar to a middle school girl,but if you have a terrible vert you will probably never have a great vert same as a slow runner won’t become an NFL D-back. Don’t hang all your hopes on the squat for improving jumping ability. Take the advice given here by the others and use what works for you.All that being said, please keep trying to improve anything you want improved just make sure you set realistic goals and then try to obliterate them.
your advice is annoying…
an individual with poor genetics can improve their vertical jump very significantly…
kellyb went from something like 24" standing vert to 40"… and his running was around 44" or something… he was well coordinated i take it, but not powerful or naturally strong…
so he went from not naturally strong, to something like a 2.5 x BW squat after some years… mentally he must have been an animal.
it’s easier for coordinated athletes with crappy strength genetics to gain alot on their vert than uncoordinated individuals… but the uncoordinated individuals simply need to put more work in at perfecting their jumping and absorbing forces.
peace[/quote]
Sorry if I annoy you but I will stick with the premise that strength training will not help explosive movements as well as power training or explosive training. Why, for example,do the best coaches not use box squats much for training power athletes like football / hockey players. They don’t transfer as well as say power cleans and snatches. You’re argument is actually with the likes of Thibaudeau and Poliquin and Cressey etc. With that, I will no longer annoy…
[quote]adarqui wrote:
J L Erwin wrote:
brian.m wrote:
J L Erwin, are you and your brother both 2 footed jumpers?
edit-what i am getting at is many of you need to start differentiating between a 2 footed jump and a single legged jump, as it is vastly different, as will training be for each style
One footed, sorry I didn’t realize you were required to jump 2 footed. Anyway, my point is that yes, jumping is a natural talent for some of us and as I stated my squat is similar to a middle school girl,but if you have a terrible vert you will probably never have a great vert same as a slow runner won’t become an NFL D-back. Don’t hang all your hopes on the squat for improving jumping ability. Take the advice given here by the others and use what works for you.All that being said, please keep trying to improve anything you want improved just make sure you set realistic goals and then try to obliterate them.
your advice is annoying…
an individual with poor genetics can improve their vertical jump very significantly…
kellyb went from something like 24" standing vert to 40"… and his running was around 44" or something… he was well coordinated i take it, but not powerful or naturally strong…
so he went from not naturally strong, to something like a 2.5 x BW squat after some years… mentally he must have been an animal.
it’s easier for coordinated athletes with crappy strength genetics to gain alot on their vert than uncoordinated individuals… but the uncoordinated individuals simply need to put more work in at perfecting their jumping and absorbing forces.
[quote]J L Erwin wrote:
Sorry if I annoy you but I will stick with the premise that strength training will not help explosive movements as well as power training or explosive training. Why, for example,do the best coaches not use box squats much for training power athletes like football / hockey players. They don’t transfer as well as say power cleans and snatches. You’re argument is actually with the likes of Thibaudeau and Poliquin and Cressey etc. With that, I will no longer annoy…
[/quote]
J L Erwin, the problem with this is that you’re thinking very short term…Explosive exercises help an athlete peak his strength out in a way that will be better displayed in an “athletic (read fast/explosive) setting”
but if you strickly do speed stuff, you will top out your speed at that strength level very quickly, but also in the long run, you will just be way too weak for your competition if they have been strength training and doing their explosive work for the whole time…and they will dominate you because of it (pending on the sport obviously, but i think the point should be clear enough)
-its just a very short term way of thinking…and not the most effective in the long run
I agree with brian.m. For less genetically gifted people, strength training is the backbone behind training. The more raw horsepower a person has, the more potential for speed and quickness. A manual I think a lot of people should read is Kelly Baggett’s speed manual. There is a lot of information, and the info along is worth the price of the book.
[quote]brian.m wrote:
J L Erwin wrote:
Sorry if I annoy you but I will stick with the premise that strength training will not help explosive movements as well as power training or explosive training. Why, for example,do the best coaches not use box squats much for training power athletes like football / hockey players. They don’t transfer as well as say power cleans and snatches. You’re argument is actually with the likes of Thibaudeau and Poliquin and Cressey etc. With that, I will no longer annoy…
J L Erwin, the problem with this is that you’re thinking very short term…Explosive exercises help an athlete peak his strength out in a way that will be better displayed in an “athletic (read fast/explosive) setting”
but if you strickly do speed stuff, you will top out your speed at that strength level very quickly, but also in the long run, you will just be way too weak for your competition if they have been strength training and doing their explosive work for the whole time…and they will dominate you because of it (pending on the sport obviously, but i think the point should be clear enough)
-its just a very short term way of thinking…and not the most effective in the long run[/quote]
I agree. What i’ve been trying to say is to not center your training around strength training to develop explosive skills. I would not “strictly” do speed stuff but the thread started out seemingly saying the individual was perplexed why his squat numbers were good but his vert wasn’t and I merely tried to state that these two things were not completely interlocking. I probably haven’t made clear my point and do apologize if I’ve misled anyone.
My real life experience along with what I’ve learned from studying everything I can get my hands on from this site’s authors (among others) backs up what I’ve at least been trying to convey. You are right however about a mixture of parameters being the best approach.You seem to explain yourself better than I.
i think we agree on more than we dissagree (which is a good sign)
[quote]adarqui wrote:
J L Erwin wrote:
brian.m wrote:
J L Erwin, are you and your brother both 2 footed jumpers?
edit-what i am getting at is many of you need to start differentiating between a 2 footed jump and a single legged jump, as it is vastly different, as will training be for each style
One footed, sorry I didn’t realize you were required to jump 2 footed. Anyway, my point is that yes, jumping is a natural talent for some of us and as I stated my squat is similar to a middle school girl,but if you have a terrible vert you will probably never have a great vert same as a slow runner won’t become an NFL D-back. Don’t hang all your hopes on the squat for improving jumping ability. Take the advice given here by the others and use what works for you.All that being said, please keep trying to improve anything you want improved just make sure you set realistic goals and then try to obliterate them.
your advice is annoying…
an individual with poor genetics can improve their vertical jump very significantly…
kellyb went from something like 24" standing vert to 40"… and his running was around 44" or something… he was well coordinated i take it, but not powerful or naturally strong…
so he went from not naturally strong, to something like a 2.5 x BW squat after some years… mentally he must have been an animal.
it’s easier for coordinated athletes with crappy strength genetics to gain alot on their vert than uncoordinated individuals… but the uncoordinated individuals simply need to put more work in at perfecting their jumping and absorbing forces.
peace[/quote]
Didn’t say it couldn’t be improved. The thread started out one seemingly confused by why he had a good squat but not a good vert. My assertion to train more towards the power (jump) training comes from what I’ve read and done personally. Joe Defranco says "train the vert to improve the vert. Would you like to tell him his advice is annoying? He is a world class trainer and you are??? So the next time you try to belittle someone try having a fucking clue… Go to DeFranco’s site and read his vert training article you genius you.