Decent Squat But Poor Vertical

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
21

I’m starting to think the same thing. My 1rm for the squat is 365lbs, so when I do that movement at the top end, I’m only giving those muscles 365lbs of stimulus. However, I can quarter/half squat more then that. So maybe working on half squats would help for jumping more then full squats? Perhaps they should be trained together? What do you guys think?

I’d say that people should always be full squatting, but it makes sense in my head to emphasize the top end and strengthen those muscles. But I guess that’s what bands and chains are for right?

22

[quote]conorh wrote:
The best jumper I’ve ever seen is my training partner. At 165 he can full squat somewhere around 430-450, quarter squat over 600, hang clean 300. He’s got ridiculous top end strength.

Now, whether that makes him a good jumper or if he can do that because he’s a good jumper I don’t know.

Also, from reading Bondarchuk’s book, I think jumping is more related to your half squat than your full squat. Do you have a gangster half squat?[/quote]

it all boils down to genetics…

some people who increase squat greatly, also improve RFD greatly… these are usually the naturally more athletic people… but of course it doesn’t have to be.

other people such as the OP just may not be improving RFD that much through squatting… in fact he may be doing the opposite - hurting his rfd.

many studies have shown that simply performing only heavy weightlifting will RUIN your force time curve… basically, you get better at producing max force, but the rate at which you produce force may get worse.

the ability to produce more force rapidly though is better with more maximal strength… so explosive/reactive strength are more easily taken to insane levels if your max strength is at an insane level.

your training partner’s relative strength based on FULL SQUAT is all that is needed… that strength alone would indicate that he could fly… there is no need to even list a quarter squat.

half squatting does not hit the glutes nearly as hard as going just below parallel or ATG… so no need to half squat if his squat is as good as it is.

if you have great relative strength, but a poor VJ, and you jump alot or have jumped alot, then it more has to do with producing force faster… you cant get off the ground if you produce force in slow mo.

peace

23

[quote]DjSm28 wrote:
I’m starting to think the same thing. My 1rm for the squat is 365lbs, so when I do that movement at the top end, I’m only giving those muscles 365lbs of stimulus. However, I can quarter/half squat more then that. So maybe working on half squats would help for jumping more then full squats? Perhaps they should be trained together? What do you guys think?

I’d say that people should always be full squatting, but it makes sense in my head to emphasize the top end and strengthen those muscles. But I guess that’s what bands and chains are for right? [/quote]

kellyb once said something like; if quarter squats were all that good, every “bro” would be jumping out of the gym.

this is because everyone, pretty much everywhere, except for the well informed = squats high.

when used in combination with deep squatting, it may actually be effective… or when used in a sort of periodization where you peak towards quarter squats after deep squatting for the majority of the periodization, it may be effective.

they definitely aren’t effective when used by themself… thats a powerful tidbit to know? you know?

deep squatting = effective by itself

quarter squatting = not effective by itself

so that right there should indicate alot.

THIS IS A REPLY FROM PROFESSOR VERKHOSHANSKY FROM HIS FORUM IN REGARDS TO HALF SQUAT:

"
The half squat is without doubt more specific and more effective to develop the antigravitational strength, but this exercise needs an overload greater than the overload used in complete squat.

For this reason to obtain the effectively, in the time, from the half squat you should minimize its potential risk of accidents. First of all, the athlete must strengthen the muscular chain involved in the movement of the half squat: the muscles of the back and the ligaments of the articulation knee.

The complete squat allows to enforce the muscular chain and, at the same time, to develop the antigravitational strength.

On the base of the preceding considerations, we can say that the use of complete squat is more suitable for the not high level athlete or at the beginning of training cycle of the high level athletes.

There is a basic consideration to be done about the athlete.

Usually the lanky athletes, as can be the jumpers or basket ball players, don?~@~Yt have a upper body muscular structure very developed, as we can find in the throwers. For this reason, in these cases, I usually recommend the use of complete squat.

For what is in my knowledge, Bondarchuk elaborate programs only for the throwers and this could be the reason of the different approach.

In mine training programs finalized to increase the height of jump (training for vertical jump) I used the combination of both means:

  •    the complete squat, executed slowly with the maximal load, as mean finalized to develop the maximal strength;

  •    the half squat jump with barbell (30% of maximal load) to develop the explosive strength.

It is probable that the use of half squat in the place of the complete squat, that I suggest, could assure a better growth of the height of jump, but should be very clear to the coach that doing this he could put in high grade of risk the athlete?~@~Ys back and knees integrity.

Yuri Verkhoshansky

"

he knows alot… really.

as for top end strength, what matters more for jumping is the transition from ECCENTRIC TO ISOMETRIC TO CONCENTRIC… this phase is where you are going to generate MASSIVE FORCES… you simply won’t have the time to keep producing substantial force the way you would with a chain/band squat…

most of the acceleration comes from the transition.

i do like chain/band squats though, definitely improve strength fast.

peace

24

I’m wondering, why is it that the glutes are fired on the vertical jump, but not when doing half squats? Aren’t they pretty much the same movement as far as what the body does?

And what do you think about jump squats? I’ve heard a lot of people say they don’t like them, but I’m personally starting to think that they would help greatly as far as learning how to put more force into the ground.

25

Squat strength and vertical are not that closely linked. I could always jump very well as could my brothers (360 dunk at 6’1") but have always been weak in the squat. It is more a twitch dominance / neuro deal. Besides, squatting is a slow movement while jumping is explosive. Train the jump and play a lot of basketball and try to play “above the rim”. Good luck!

26

[quote]DjSm28 wrote:
I’m wondering, why is it that the glutes are fired on the vertical jump, but not when doing half squats? Aren’t they pretty much the same movement as far as what the body does?

And what do you think about jump squats? I’ve heard a lot of people say they don’t like them, but I’m personally starting to think that they would help greatly as far as learning how to put more force into the ground.[/quote]

well, as far as vertical jump & glutes are concerned; emg studies and all that crap will show you conflicting data on % muscle usage etc…

but one thing thats for sure is that at triple extension, the glutes are firing HARDCORE… glute max is massive and capable of generating insane forces FAST - especially due to its fast twitch nature.

the difference in a quarter squat and vertical jump, is that there is no forceful hip extension in the quarter squat… in fact there is a shitload of deceleration in a quarter squat because of how high over your % 1RM deep squat you are… and since you are not going deep, the glutes never half to kick in (quads will take this role).

i personally like jump squats… i just dont do them because of the load on my spine upon landing… i do have a back injury from way back so, jump squats seem to aggrivate it, and aggrivate some knee issues…

i personally like reactive squats alot more… basically free falling into a half/above half squat and exploding upwards… this really trains the EIC transition.

those are hard on your body also, but not as much as jump squats IMO.

if jump squats with 30% 1RM dont effect you negatively, they are a valuable tool.

peace

27

[quote]J L Erwin wrote:
Squat strength and vertical are not that closely linked. I could always jump very well as could my brothers (360 dunk at 6’1") but have always been weak in the squat. It is more a twitch dominance / neuro deal. Besides, squatting is a slow movement while jumping is explosive. Train the jump and play a lot of basketball and try to play “above the rim”. Good luck![/quote]

unfortunately this is the advice non-genetic jumpers receive all of the time from genetic jumpers :wink:

squat strength and standing vertical are very well correlated… max strength and explosive strength are very well coordinated… broad jump & acceleration ability is very well coordinated.

basketball players usually are wimps in the weight room… they usually have horrible leverages for squatting… they usually think that all you need to do is jump alot to get to 40+" running vert because some highly gifted nba guy said he did it.

if you have great genetics then all you need to do is jump.

peace

28

Didn’t Baggett just have an article talking about how vertical jump is a lot of quads and calves though? And top end speed running is glutes and hamstrings? I know everything is contributing to both, but he said that quad dominant people can jump, and pchain people can run.

How about we just all agree that if you get everything strong, and practice running and jumping, you’ll be able to run and jump well.

29

J L Erwin, are you and your brother both 2 footed jumpers?

edit-what i am getting at is many of you need to start differentiating between a 2 footed jump and a single legged jump, as it is vastly different, as will training be for each style

30

[quote]DjSm28 wrote:
Didn’t Baggett just have an article talking about how vertical jump is a lot of quads and calves though? And top end speed running is glutes and hamstrings? I know everything is contributing to both, but he said that quad dominant people can jump, and pchain people can run. How about we just all agree that if you get everything strong, and practice running and jumping, you’ll be able to run and jump well.[/quote]

i cant remember if he mentioned glutes or not for VJ in that article… but he always has been a heavy advocater of glute strength from what i’ve seen…

here’s another recent article of him:

The Plague of The Mediocre Athlete

“No Glutes Equals No Results”

i dont want to turn this thread into a hamstring vs quad for vert discussion lol:

jumping involves glutes heavily… im not big on the whole hamstring frensy… most everyone that ive seen who says VJ highly relies on hamstrings is a little nutty (the quads suck crowd)… quads/calfs/glutes for vert seem to be most important… but you do want to build your hamstrings very powerful if you’re a normal athlete - since you rely on sprinting and such.

peace

edit: i think every athlete (regardless of vj/sprint) should strive to be as glute dominant as possible…

31

[quote]adarqui wrote:
DjSm28 wrote:
Didn’t Baggett just have an article talking about how vertical jump is a lot of quads and calves though? And top end speed running is glutes and hamstrings? I know everything is contributing to both, but he said that quad dominant people can jump, and pchain people can run. How about we just all agree that if you get everything strong, and practice running and jumping, you’ll be able to run and jump well.

i cant remember if he mentioned glutes or not for VJ in that article… but he always has been a heavy advocater of glute strength from what i’ve seen…

here’s another recent article of him:

The Plague of The Mediocre Athlete

“No Glutes Equals No Results”

i dont want to turn this thread into a hamstring vs quad for vert discussion lol:

jumping involves glutes heavily… im not big on the whole hamstring frensy… most everyone that ive seen who says VJ highly relies on hamstrings is a little nutty (the quads suck crowd)… quads/calfs/glutes for vert seem to be most important… but you do want to build your hamstrings very powerful if you’re a normal athlete - since you rely on sprinting and such.

peace

edit: i think every athlete (regardless of vj/sprint) should strive to be as glute dominant as possible…[/quote]

I like your posts. I think we’re in agreement on all things jumping. Note, I mentioned I didn’t know which way the causal relationship went with my partner and he is almost certainly a “genetic jumper”. Also, in Bondarchuk’s book it seems like the half squat is an assessment tool/predictor rather than a developmental tool, so take that for what you will.

32

I do agree the glutes are very important. I’ve found that doing deadlifts have helped my vertical. I just wanted to see others opinions though. I’m starting to think people over rate hammering the pchain though. Yes, its true that a lot of people are quad dominant, but it is important to have strong quads and a strong pchain.

The thread has kind of shifted to talking more about lifting so lets try to shift it back.

Do more jumping and sprinting, and just do enough squatting for maintainance. A heavy 3x3 once a week should suffice, but some would say you could even do less then that.

33

[quote]Thantophobia wrote:
Thanks for all the advice - good stuff.

Cool - putting the squat on low volume and low frequency sounds like a good idea. I’ve done a fair amount of jump specific training, but I never altered my squat routine while doing so. Since I typically do quite a bit of squatting, 2x a week for both front and back squats, lowering the volume would probably be a good idea.

[/quote]

not only that, but drop the intensity

jumping and squatting compete for resources when pushed hard for each. Put your squat on maintenance, so your body can rebound and get rid of all the low level fatigue

The stronger you get, the more low level fatigue you will have from squatting hard, and the longer it stays around

that’s why as you get more advanced, you should set aside a time to build size and strength in the lower body for more jump resources and horsepower, and a time to deload, allow the fatigue to dissipate and let your hops improve. Work the jump until it stalls improvement wise, and then go back and build more horsepower.

Each time you get stronger, each time you get higher, and cycle forever upwards until your genetics/testosterone levels stall your size gains, and thus strength increase

In other words conjugate style organisation :slight_smile:

34

CoolColJ, wouldnt you often lose much of the strength and size gained during extended deload phases? (even a short season?) -and in the same regard, quickly lose the quickness gained from the deload shortly after getting back to the weights to make up for lost time, in the same way that many believe linear periodization is not the most efficent method of weight training?

i dont mean to be rude or whatever, i know you’re more knowledgeable to the topic then myself, its an honest question

35

you keep squatting, just dial it way back in terms of volume, frequency and intensity. Enough to maintain your size/strength, but not enough to fatigue. 2x6 at 70% should be enough from personal experience so far. Or some form of paused explosive squats for triples has worked well in the past.

Will have to get back to you on that when my first major deload comes up after I reach my short term squatting target
I normally do 2x6 at 83-85% to build my squat up, or anywhere bewteen 80-85% for 2 main worksets of between 5-8 reps. I’m low volume, low frequency kind of guy, but its working real well. My squat is improving at a rapid rate!
Leg and hip size is going up as well, as expected

Also jumping and landing from jumps works your lower body and back intensively, especially when you can jump over 30 inches. We are talking about >10 times bodyweight forces here. Not something a squat can match, so it will help maintaining leg strength. But you still need to squat and other stuff to maintain the muscle mass

When your a low level squatter/jumper yeah you can work everything intensely at once and get results in both, but sooner or later that stops working. If you need another 50lbs on your squat to get those extra inches in a fairly short time frame, your going to need to bust some ass in the squat rack, and that will kill your hops. Some people loose more than others, I have lost as much as 3 inches standing and 5-6 off a run.

Or you can baby yourself and try and gain those 50lbs over a year and work your jump at the same time, and get a trickle of gain on each. Choice is yours. But IMO it won’t work as well for the more advanced trainee. Not an effecient use of training time IMO

36

CoolColJ, thanks for the response, i took it too literally but that makes sense (and also explains why my vert hasnt moved as much as i hoped it would, as the only time i stop squatting is for injury usually, definitly something to consider! thanks alot

37

[quote]brian.m wrote:
J L Erwin, are you and your brother both 2 footed jumpers?

edit-what i am getting at is many of you need to start differentiating between a 2 footed jump and a single legged jump, as it is vastly different, as will training be for each style[/quote]

One footed, sorry I didn’t realize you were required to jump 2 footed. Anyway, my point is that yes, jumping is a natural talent for some of us and as I stated my squat is similar to a middle school girl,but if you have a terrible vert you will probably never have a great vert same as a slow runner won’t become an NFL D-back. Don’t hang all your hopes on the squat for improving jumping ability. Take the advice given here by the others and use what works for you.All that being said, please keep trying to improve anything you want improved just make sure you set realistic goals and then try to obliterate them.

38

i just want to make sure becasue the squat will corrolate better to a 2 footed standing vertical much better than a running 1 legged leap, and as mentioned before, lots of times building up a big squat is some peoples only pretty reliable hope of getting bigger hops after their other resources are maxed

39

[quote]brian.m wrote:
i just want to make sure becasue the squat will corrolate better to a 2 footed standing vertical much better than a running 1 legged leap, and as mentioned before, lots of times building up a big squat is some peoples only pretty reliable hope of getting bigger hops after their other resources are maxed[/quote]

i’ll give you an example:

my friend eddie is a natural single leg jumper… he hits 11’2" with pure genetics, at a height of 6’0 and weighs around 145 at the time.

after 3 months (2 months GPP, 1 month intense squatting), he put 3.5" (11’5.5") on his running jump…

his work schedule then changed real bad… he stopped going as heavy on the weights, his jump went back down to 11’2"…

after two weeks of heavy squatting he’s back up to 11’4"

many top high jumpers squat… although it may be a very high squat (such as in eddie’s case) because of limb leverages etc (very long femurs), it is still VERY effective at improving force production in the single leg jump… no matter what, it’ll make you stronger, and this strength will improve single leg jumping.

i do like heavy stepups & single leg bounds for single leg jumpers also.

peace

edit: eddie started out weak as hell in the weight room… but thats just cause he never experienced that kind of tension/didnt have any technique…

walking lunges, 20’s would kill him… after 3 months he was using 70’s and 80’s.

(partial, because of leverages) squatting he went from feeling it everywhere with 135, to hitting a 315 single at ~150 lb. bodyweight… his partial squat is ALL hamstrings… it’s more like a good morning.

natural jumpers have the capacity to get VERY STRONG, VERY QUICK.

40

[quote]J L Erwin wrote:
brian.m wrote:
J L Erwin, are you and your brother both 2 footed jumpers?

edit-what i am getting at is many of you need to start differentiating between a 2 footed jump and a single legged jump, as it is vastly different, as will training be for each style

One footed, sorry I didn’t realize you were required to jump 2 footed. Anyway, my point is that yes, jumping is a natural talent for some of us and as I stated my squat is similar to a middle school girl,but if you have a terrible vert you will probably never have a great vert same as a slow runner won’t become an NFL D-back. Don’t hang all your hopes on the squat for improving jumping ability. Take the advice given here by the others and use what works for you.All that being said, please keep trying to improve anything you want improved just make sure you set realistic goals and then try to obliterate them.[/quote]

your advice is annoying…

an individual with poor genetics can improve their vertical jump very significantly…

kellyb went from something like 24" standing vert to 40"… and his running was around 44" or something… he was well coordinated i take it, but not powerful or naturally strong…

so he went from not naturally strong, to something like a 2.5 x BW squat after some years… mentally he must have been an animal.

it’s easier for coordinated athletes with crappy strength genetics to gain alot on their vert than uncoordinated individuals… but the uncoordinated individuals simply need to put more work in at perfecting their jumping and absorbing forces.

peace