Well, the way T3hPwnisher builds his deadlift makes sense.
He’s still practicing the form. He just progressively increases the RoM instead of the weight.
[quote]magick wrote:
Well, the way T3hPwnisher builds his deadlift makes sense.
He’s still practicing the form. He just progressively increases the RoM instead of the weight.
[/quote]
He gets great results, no doubt about that.
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
What do you mean you’re opposed to deadlifts[/quote]
I find deadlifts to be one of the best strength demonstrators on the planet yet not a great strength builder. I have achieved the greatest success in building my deadlift by NOT deadlifting, focusing far more on mat pulls and safety squat bar work. In contrast, when I ensured to include deadlifts in my training, my deadlift stalled for a long time. I feel like most trainees without aspirations in competing in powerlifting or strongman would benefit more from not deadlifting, and even with my own training, I only pull from the floor once every 2 months.
I find the fundamental issue is that most people can’t separate practicing a lift with building it, and think that, in order to make a lift stronger, you have to perform the lift itself. [/quote]
I love reading your posts, and recognize how strong you are, but have you ever considered that you might be a freak of nature? It just seems to me that practicing the movement itself is important in-and-of-itself if you want to get better at it. If you accept the proposition that the movement takes skill, not just strength, then its hard to get behind advocating more or less not practicing the movement for months at a time.
I guess the proof is in the pudding.
[/quote]
I appreciate the kind words. I feel that, if someone needs to spend time practicing the movement, they should definitely do so. However, if one has this proficiency, the need is not as vital, and more time can be spent getting stronger versus getting better. One can still use warm ups to groove the pattern, or a similar approximation (kettlebell swings for the hip hinge in the dead), but I have found that the movements that make me stronger in the competition lifts at present are not the actual competition lifts.
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Ha, thanks. I do try to play nice and be more tolerant in the Beginners forum. When they venture outside of those gates, it’s all fair play.
[/quote]
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
What do you mean you’re opposed to deadlifts[/quote]
I find deadlifts to be one of the best strength demonstrators on the planet yet not a great strength builder. I have achieved the greatest success in building my deadlift by NOT deadlifting, focusing far more on mat pulls and safety squat bar work. In contrast, when I ensured to include deadlifts in my training, my deadlift stalled for a long time. I feel like most trainees without aspirations in competing in powerlifting or strongman would benefit more from not deadlifting, and even with my own training, I only pull from the floor once every 2 months.
[/quote]
I wouldn’t call that being opposed to deadlifts is why I was confused haha. You’re not opposed to deadlifting you just train them weirdly and infrequently from the floor. You surely still do a lot of pulling.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I find the fundamental issue is that most people can’t separate practicing a lift with building it, and think that, in order to make a lift stronger, you have to perform the lift itself.
[/quote]
We’ve all read how this has worked for you, but I think your fundamental issue is that sometimes you appear to not recognize that you’re very likely in a rather small minority of trainees. Two of the folks I train with most often advocate pretty much the opposite method. They never got anything out of block pulls or rack pulls. They prefer pulling from the floor or if anything, slight deficits. One is a 45 year old dude who pulled 640 @ 198 in a meet and the other is a 181 who pulled… I believe 625 was his best. I’m not sure what your actual powerlifting deadlift is around these days; I know you’ve moved into some strongman training where you can hitch and have made great use of touch and go reps on your PR sets, but surely these dudes are at least around your level.
Mike Tuchscherer, Chad Smith, Ben Rice, Dan Green, Andrey Malanichev, and other guys whose numbers speak for themselves are all pretty huge advocates of practicing the exact bar lifts in the exact way you need to perform them as frequently as possible. The idea is it’s no different than a basketball player practicing freethrows or a quarterback practicing passes or a golfer practicing his swing with each club. Strength is a skill, and strength is very specific to each ingrained motor pattern.
Anyway; you provide a valuable point of reference to the site, and your methods merit a try from anyone finding themselves in a bad plateau, however I think most of us are pretty hesitant to view them as a panacea.
[quote]csulli wrote:
I wouldn’t call that being opposed to deadlifts is why I was confused haha. You’re not opposed to deadlifting you just train them weirdly and infrequently from the floor. You surely still do a lot of pulling.
[/quote]
I am opposed to most trainees using the movement itself to obtain a goal. I feel like other movements can replicate the benefits of the deadlift better than the deadlift itself, which is why I claim I am opposed to it. I pull off the floor because the sports I compete in require it, but were it not the case, I would see no need to do so.
I do a lot of pulling, absolutely, and I feel like a higher elevated pull can be more beneficial than one off the floor.
Not at all. I am actually very aware that what I say is not what is accepted or practiced as the norm. It’s generally why I say it, because so much time is spent reinforcing the same things that in many cases the avenue for conversation on an alternative simply doesn’t exist.
There are tons of ways to succeed here.
This is actually exactly where I have my same point of reference. These athletes practice their skills, and then they engage in training to become faster and stronger rather than better. When these athletes are in the weight room, they aren’t throwing weighted basketballs or hitting heavier balls with heavier clubs, but instead using the movements that make their skills stronger. I have found that I can also use this approach in strength sports, wherein I have sessions where the goal is to practice and become better, and others where the goal is to become stronger.
There are plenty of people that have gotten stronger NOT using the approach that I use, and if that is how one gets stronger, it would be foolish for that person to implement my methods. However, if one gets stronger using my methods, I think that’s awesome too.
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
…
Pick a story and stick to it.
[/quote]
This was my favorite part: OP first said that it was usually bigger and stronger dudes giving him advice, then when pushed, downplayed the supposed size and strength of said bigger and stronger dudes. Well…which is it?
[/quote]
What i mean is: they are bigger/stronger than me. But difference is not that great or impressive, considering that they been training much longer than me
[quote]creatinejunkie wrote:
What i mean is: they are bigger/stronger than me. But difference is not that great or impressive, considering that they been training much longer than me
[/quote]
How strong are you?
[quote]creatinejunkie wrote:
There are plenty of older, and usually bigger/stronger dudes in my gym, that preach broscience to me. Now, i appreciate their effort to help me, but they actually expect me to follow their advice which is complete broscience and bullshit. How should i deal with them without going into argument or hurting relationships? (don’t want to have constant negative atmosphere when i go to workout)[/quote]
I’ve met fat-ass nurses who tried to preach nutrition to me. Same with docs, chiros, and similar people who think their degrees somehow makes everything they say or type is pure gold.
And the asshat medical professionals who take the cake are the ones that can’t even get bigger and/or stronger without screwing themselves up. Smh as I LMFAO at these clowns. If they ACTUALLY know how to get results safely, they wouldn’t look so comical.
The broscience guys you’re so quick to dismiss are doing something right. Sure, you can chalk it up to genetics (or even gear) but my gut tells me you’d do yourself a favor by listening to what they say, see how the info matches up with the current science, finding the best compromise, then experimenting to see what works or doesn’t. If you have the funds, hire a first rate Coach who can do this for you.
When a guy resembles a bona fide warrior and not a keyboard warrior, he’ll have earned the right to tell the big strong men in the gym his opinions.
As my Coach told me, you can go to any gym and, as long as you train hard, clean up your mess, and respect others’ space, you’ll earn a base level of respect. To rank higher, you need the impressive physique and/or numbers.
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
I’ve met fat-ass nurses who tried to preach nutrition to me. Same with docs, chiros, and similar people who think their degrees somehow makes everything they say or type is pure gold.
[/quote]
Uh, the fact that people may not follow their own advice doesn’t mean that their advice isn’t good.
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
I’ve met fat-ass nurses who tried to preach nutrition to me. Same with docs, chiros, and similar people who think their degrees somehow makes everything they say or type is pure gold.
[/quote]
Uh, the fact that people may not follow their own advice doesn’t mean that their advice isn’t good.[/quote]
True, but unless you’re a dietician, you’re really not that qualified to give nutrition advice as a medical professional.
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
I’ve met fat-ass nurses who tried to preach nutrition to me. Same with docs, chiros, and similar people who think their degrees somehow makes everything they say or type is pure gold.
[/quote]
Uh, the fact that people may not follow their own advice doesn’t mean that their advice isn’t good.[/quote]
I used to have a similar mindset. But these days it’s all too easy to parrot some study or article.
I find it difficult to believe that nurses WANT to go around fat and in pain (low back pain, knee pain, and so on). And there are docs and chiros who surely don’t WANT to get injured but there’s no shortage of examples - even on this site.
If some health provider can’t even keep himself injury free in the gym, why should I listen to him…?
So I call bullshit on these people - regardless of their schooling - if the proof of their ‘wisdom’ isn’t there.
To me, my health IS an investment. Now that I’ve finally found a great Coach who (in his words) combines empirical knowledge with science, I know who I’m listening to.
[quote]creatinejunkie wrote:
There are plenty of older, and usually bigger/stronger dudes in my gym, that preach broscience to me. Now, i appreciate their effort to help me, but they actually expect me to follow their advice which is complete broscience and bullshit. How should i deal with them without going into argument or hurting relationships? (don’t want to have constant negative atmosphere when i go to workout)[/quote]
[quote]creatinejunkie wrote:
There are plenty of older, and usually bigger/stronger dudes in my gym, that preach broscience to me. Now, i appreciate their effort to help me, but they actually expect me to follow their advice which is complete broscience and bullshit. How should i deal with them without going into argument or hurting relationships? (don’t want to have constant negative atmosphere when i go to workout)[/quote]
Anyone giving quality advice should not be so fragile if you choose not to take it, if they have your best intentions at heart. If they get butt hurt over it, they are more interested in their ego rather than your success.
Do what you think is best, you will learn how your body works this way. It could take you some time to figure out how your body reacts to lifts, nutrition, and supplements.
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
I used to have a similar mindset. But these days it’s all too easy to parrot some study or article.
[/quote]
Well, I meant it more as a generality than specifically about medical folks.
I do agree with what you wrote in the post I quoted though. It doesn’t make sense for me to see fat nurses preach about nutrition either.
But it could very well be that they know a lot, but simply don’t have the willpower and time to follow through.
In other words, lots of variables (though in my honest opinion the only truly relevant one is self-control and discipline) control whether you can actually follow what you preach.
I actually run into the bro science b.s. at my gym - you know the guys who brag about leg press PRs and take locker room selfless together…drives me duck in crazy.