[quote]actionjeff wrote:
I REALLY don’t think my upper back or core is weak to be honest… I row/shrug/chin a lot of weight relative to my pull. I think it’s just the position of the pull
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I agree. Don’t put the bar so close to your shins when you start. Start with it out 2" or so. This will allow you to pull back more and keep your knees out of the way.
You also might want to experiment with widening your stance a couple inches. It is easier to keep a tight/nuetral arch with a wider stance. Don’t move your feet much, a little should make a big difference.
Your starting position is fine, you don’t have your lats locked in tight enough. Doing the exercises i mentioned earlier will work the lats and doing the exercises with negatives and static holds will help you lock in your lats
are you suggestions scalpular retraction in the lift? And is that possible with a rounded thoracic spine?
The only one of those lifts I’ve done is the RDLs. I keep the chest up and shoulders pulled back and it works the upper back really, really hard as well as posterior chain. I’ve only been doing these regularly for about a month and a half though.
I’ll give those suggestions a try. What are scalpular retractions?
Tedro,
I actually tried widening the stance recently and it was a problem. In the past I think it would make me weaker off the floor and sometimes the knees would cave a little.
Two weeks before that 405 vid, I did 345x2 and tried a wider stance and a static start, and on my first attempt, couldn’t even break the bar from the ground. The next week I brought my stance back in and dipped and ripped and pulled 365x5.
I’m gonna try pulling from the optimal position this Saturday so I don’t waste energy like in that vid, and mess around with my setup a little.
thanks for all the help guys. I’ll keep you updated.
Personally, my ability to hold a neutral spine came down to abdominal strength. Once I started really making sure to brace my abs – take a big breath, push the abs out hard – I stopped having a problem keeping an arch. Anyways, if you aren’t already, you might want to work on that and see if it helps.
For scapular retractions: you can do them laterally on a T-Bar row, or overhead with a pullup bar…when you are hanging from your hands, tighten your rhomboids and lats and push down with your traps. You will go from looking forward to looking almost up. you will feel it in your midback and lats.
When you get to the position, hold for a secon or two…do about 3 sets of 3 with decent weight.
Another exercise that helps is a rolling shrug…take dumbells and start in a shoulders rolled forward postiion (hands facing thighs), then roll into a good shrug but focus on the rear delts by pulling back and not just up, forcing the chest out…when you get to the top, hold for 3-5 seconds…a few sets of five with good weight on this one.
I watched the pull a few times and I didn’t see you take a big breath before the dip. You’re obviously going to get caved over a little more than usual on a max attempt without enough air in your belly/chest to stabilize the spine. Bracing the abs as hard as possible would also help this, as would pulling (or at least attempting to pull) the shoulders down and back to engage the lats.
Your lower back rounded a little because you didn’t keep your ass pushed back far enough to engage the glutes and hamstrings. You tried to pull straight up instead of up and back.
I took a big breath but it’s hard to see. I might not have been bracing the abdominals max hard though.
This up and back vs. straight up thing, I’m notn really entirely sure on if I am doing there or what I should be. My understanding was the legs and hamstrings are active at the start with the rest of the support being isometric, and my lower back starts to go to work and rise right after the bar comes from the floor, at which point the shoulder starts moving backward and bars should start moving “in”?
unfortunately I am feeling sick so I am not being able to deadlift heavy this past Saturday. I actually had to bail out on my lifting session
but I still did a few singles for form pradtice. I am taking this week off. I went up to 345
(2) pull from floor to make sure position was good
(3) brace abdominals very hard.
if I should change the angle or anything for the future please let me know
also should I be squeezing glutes at the start of the pull? or doing anything for lats… to be honest I do nothing, not sure if these should be flexed or something, I just try to pull back after i get the bar moving and i assumed that would work
Even though i was really weak from sickness I thought this was OK for a form type attemept and I can try lifting really light later this week or speed pulls from another angle if that will help
to be honest I thought the bar was a little far away from me and I needed to have it closer by the time it reached the knees, it wasn’t dragging the thighs like normal
I can do full dragon flags and hold an l-sit for over 30 seconds =)
my leg drive is weak though, and squat is pretty poor.
I don’t understand how you can say I need lower back work. If my legs are working less, then I am basically using my back power to lift 400 pounds. It seems like my lower back is disproportionately strong, no?
I definitely need to train legs harder. Undeerstand, I used to squat 2-3 times every week or more. But as bad decisions are made I cut it back to once when I stopped focusing on drilling the olympic lifts, and my leg strength and size have suffered since.
It’s time to up the volume again soon, I think. I did add leg presses back recently and thought they helped my coan deadlift cycle for the very reason you mention. Leg drive.
do u have any comment on the last vid or anything zep?
you look like your locking your legs out before you start pulling.
I would hammer the abs hard for the next few weeks. Do defecit deads for all heavy pulling. Add some serious poundage to your good morning and either front squat or leg press.
If you can’t fit the front squats or leg presses in anywhere (doubtful) switch to an oly stance for your squats. I pretty much attribute my deadlift to oly stance box squats and pulling heavy and often.
You said your legs are weak? bring them up. It took me a while to see teh benefits of lower back/ab work work and I’m paying for it now. Work stronger abs/lower back defecit deads and squats It never ever hurts.
I was legitimately standing in my bathroom, thinking about deadlifting, looking in the mirror and at my shoulders and the virtual barbell in the start position, messing around with it and seeing where my hips would be if the arms were brushing the knees/thighs, etc… and I just kind of clicked with what LSU said!
I just realized, I was getting rounded over up top, and FORWARD because the lats weren’t locked into place at the start of the lift. and since i was trying to keep the bar really close of course, that contributes to balling up under the load. So then I moved the bar way out so it would just hang, and that solved the problem but fucked my leverage.
So the solution is, the bar can be a little further, but the shoulder/scalpula position is what is crucial. The arms hang at an angle down towards the body, and the lats support the position!
So it’s what LSU said. I can round over up top, and have the SAME distance to the floor, and have the barbell closer to my shins because the lats are locked into place!
I have ALWAYS kept the upper back really tight when sumo pulling, but if the lats flex at the start of the pull in my conventionals, it is just a result of me pulling and not anything intentional. I think this could help explain some of my strength discrepancy too!
like, this should be a huge difference. this is the good stuff you need to learn. I’m really glad I posted that thread. thanks guys, special thanks to tedro and LSU. This is like an epiphany.
looking forward to updating this thread with a beautiful pull next Saturday.