[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
doesn’t Dante also say that you should have built 3lbs/inch of height before starting DC?[/quote]
Yeah, that, and a good strength norm for advanced guys is 455 incline benches. [/quote]
Rest paused for 8-15
If you can’t incline 455 for one within a few years of training you clearly aren’t cut out for this
[quote]zraw wrote:
[quote]PMurph wrote:
[quote]zraw wrote:
^ And to know you will have some imbalances to fix afterward. srs here[/quote]
Maybe, but how many people reach that point?
It doesn’t matter how you train you always have something that lags or that requires additional work. Although you can never ever really change your make-up.
Looking at the basics of DC, you can structure the big lifts in such a manner to give certain parts more of a hammering.
EG. if you were to use slight decline press for chest, standing overhead press and an over-head dumbell extension with the intensity that is supposed to be used; then your triceps get some kicking on 3 occasions every 2-weeks. Dante recomends rotating 3 different exercices for each body part within every Drive cycle; although this doesn’t necessairly mean you need completely different movements. Slight angle changes is enough to allow you to lengthen the overloading period of each movement.
Personally I trained DC with less exercises per workout, but there again I may be lucky enough not to not need any direct work for arms.
I don’t do DC anymore, certainly not because it doesn’t work, I do 5/3/1 twice a week and work harder on my conditining and fitness but would support DC for those interested in BB. Jim Wendler has just released a 6-week challenge on this site that combines 5/3/1 and DC style training which looks interesting for anyone who wants growth. Again Jim is a no BS guy who tells you how it is…[/quote]
ive DCed for a bit over 2years…
To think muscles such as triceps and delts or even back as a “whole” is where the problem arise.
No your triceps will not develop evenly, at all, from big presses and no direct work of the lateral head
No your side and rear delts wont develop much from rowing
[/quote]
If you DC’s for 2-years I’m sure you would agree that you can rotate exercise within DC to hit those parts you mention.
But my point is; is that most people looking at this aren’t in a position to worry about the lateral head of the tricep being out of proportion to their long head.
They should focus on over-loading the muscles, whilst forcing more weight on the bar over time before worrying about if their arms will respond.
Pff. Check this list out.
455 for 15rp on the incline bench
500 for 10 reps on the deadlift
90lb dumbell curls for 20rp
425 for 20rp on the close grip
315lbs for 15-20rp on the military
150lb rack chins for 20rp
600lb calf presses extreme stretched for 12
550 for 4-5 and 405 for 15-20 reps on the squat
the weight stack and chained plates for 15-30rp on the leg curl
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
doesn’t Dante also say that you should have built 3lbs/inch of height before starting DC?[/quote]
Yeah, that, and a good strength norm for advanced guys is 455 incline benches. [/quote]
Rest paused for 8-15
If you can’t incline 455 for one within a few years of training you clearly aren’t cut out for this[/quote]
3 lbs/inch BEFORE starting DC? Haha!
Apparently you have to be an highly advanced bodybuilder before you do a straight set to near failure or a set of rest pause reps.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Pff. Check this list out.
455 for 15rp on the incline bench
500 for 10 reps on the deadlift
90lb dumbell curls for 20rp
425 for 20rp on the close grip
315lbs for 15-20rp on the military
150lb rack chins for 20rp
600lb calf presses extreme stretched for 12
550 for 4-5 and 405 for 15-20 reps on the squat
the weight stack and chained plates for 15-30rp on the leg curl
[/quote]
Damn, you can do all that? Impressive. How tall and how much you weigh if you don’t mind me asking?
[quote]fnf wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Pff. Check this list out.
455 for 15rp on the incline bench
500 for 10 reps on the deadlift
90lb dumbell curls for 20rp
425 for 20rp on the close grip
315lbs for 15-20rp on the military
150lb rack chins for 20rp
600lb calf presses extreme stretched for 12
550 for 4-5 and 405 for 15-20 reps on the squat
the weight stack and chained plates for 15-30rp on the leg curl
[/quote]
Damn, you can do all that? Impressive. How tall and how much you weigh if you don’t mind me asking?
[/quote]
I certainly CAN’T do this.
This is a list of strength aims compiled by Dante.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
doesn’t Dante also say that you should have built 3lbs/inch of height before starting DC?[/quote]
Yeah, that, and a good strength norm for advanced guys is 455 incline benches. [/quote]
Rest paused for 8-15
If you can’t incline 455 for one within a few years of training you clearly aren’t cut out for this[/quote]
3 lbs/inch BEFORE starting DC? Haha!
Apparently you have to be an highly advanced bodybuilder before you do a straight set to near failure or a set of rest pause reps. [/quote]
i can understand why dante says the thing he does, its to stop newbs from fucking up the routine. i thing it goes a bit overboard but, anyone with a decent amount of time training should know how to push themselves. so this whole wait untill your crazy strong or are an advanced bodybuilder is abit silly to me.
[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
doesn’t Dante also say that you should have built 3lbs/inch of height before starting DC?[/quote]
Yeah, that, and a good strength norm for advanced guys is 455 incline benches. [/quote]
Rest paused for 8-15
If you can’t incline 455 for one within a few years of training you clearly aren’t cut out for this[/quote]
3 lbs/inch BEFORE starting DC? Haha!
Apparently you have to be an highly advanced bodybuilder before you do a straight set to near failure or a set of rest pause reps. [/quote]
i can understand why dante says the thing he does, its to stop newbs from fucking up the routine. i thing it goes a bit overboard but, anyone with a decent amount of time training should know how to push themselves. so this whole wait untill your crazy strong or are an advanced bodybuilder is abit silly to me.[/quote]
Dante also said Ronnie turned pro natural.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
doesn’t Dante also say that you should have built 3lbs/inch of height before starting DC?[/quote]
Yeah, that, and a good strength norm for advanced guys is 455 incline benches. [/quote]
Rest paused for 8-15
If you can’t incline 455 for one within a few years of training you clearly aren’t cut out for this[/quote]
3 lbs/inch BEFORE starting DC? Haha!
Apparently you have to be an highly advanced bodybuilder before you do a straight set to near failure or a set of rest pause reps. [/quote]
i can understand why dante says the thing he does, its to stop newbs from fucking up the routine. i thing it goes a bit overboard but, anyone with a decent amount of time training should know how to push themselves. so this whole wait untill your crazy strong or are an advanced bodybuilder is abit silly to me.[/quote]
Dante also said Ronnie turned pro natural. [/quote]
what??? Link to quote?
I gotta try to find it.
I do these sometimes, makes my forearms look meatier and works a part of them that standard grip stuff doesn’t hit
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
2) This is more of a criticism of Dante rather than the format of training. According to him, if you make the most minor changes in the program, it is no longer DC. I’ve literally seen people say, if you were to put biceps on Day A instead of Day B, then it’s no longer DC training!!! (Correct me if I have this wrong.)
[/quote]
I’ve been doing DC training for a few weeks now. I’m definitely enjoying it, but it’s too soon for me to assess its efficacy, gains-wise.
Brick, I would say your criticism is spot on. The DC crowd is extremely dogmatic, and at times logically inconsistent. For example, it is considered foolish to perform direct trap work (i.e., shrugs) because deadlifts/rack pulls work the traps indirectly. The analogy that is often thrown around goes along the lines of: “what’s going to give you bigger traps, shrugging 185 or deadlifting 600?”. This is obviously fallacious, because if you can deadlift 600 , you can probably shrug with at least 7-800.
Also, why is it considered redundant to train your traps when you deadlift, but it’s mandatory to train your forearms when you’re already rowing/curling? Why do you train your calves if you’re already squatting/deadlifting/leg-curling?
This kind of thinking strikes me as being wholly inconsistent, and while I do believe that Dante is very knowledgable and has created a very well thought-out system, I don’t believe that he’s infallible, and I do believe that it’s okay to use one’s own critical thinking skills (as long as one actually possesses them)*. I honestly feel that if you’ve been lifting long enough, you already know that you should try the program first, assess your results, and make changes if necessary. I wouldn’t bother posting a thread asking if some minor change is permissible, just to get chastised for it.
*Dunning-Kruger Effect
[quote]bcingu wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
2) This is more of a criticism of Dante rather than the format of training. According to him, if you make the most minor changes in the program, it is no longer DC. I’ve literally seen people say, if you were to put biceps on Day A instead of Day B, then it’s no longer DC training!!! (Correct me if I have this wrong.)
[/quote]
I’ve been doing DC training for a few weeks now. I’m definitely enjoying it, but it’s too soon for me to assess its efficacy, gains-wise.
Brick, I would say your criticism is spot on. The DC crowd is extremely dogmatic, and at times logically inconsistent. For example, it is considered foolish to perform direct trap work (i.e., shrugs) because deadlifts/rack pulls work the traps indirectly. The analogy that is often thrown around goes along the lines of: “what’s going to give you bigger traps, shrugging 185 or deadlifting 600?”. This is obviously fallacious, because if you can deadlift 600 , you can probably shrug with at least 7-800.
Also, why is it considered redundant to train your traps when you deadlift, but it’s mandatory to train your forearms when you’re already rowing/curling? Why do you train your calves if you’re already squatting/deadlifting/leg-curling?
This kind of thinking strikes me as being wholly inconsistent, and while I do believe that Dante is very knowledgable and has created a very well thought-out system, I don’t believe that he’s infallible, and I do believe that it’s okay to use one’s own critical thinking skills (as long as one actually possesses them)*. I honestly feel that if you’ve been lifting long enough, you already know that you should try the program first, assess your results, and make changes if necessary. I wouldn’t bother posting a thread asking if some minor change is permissible, just to get chastised for it.
*Dunning-Kruger Effect[/quote]
Although alot of DC followers do seem pretty dogmatic, Dante does say to think about what exercises are best for you and your goals. He has a post for people who feel they need to target traps more and recommends a rack dead/shrug combination.
[quote]bcingu wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
2) This is more of a criticism of Dante rather than the format of training. According to him, if you make the most minor changes in the program, it is no longer DC. I’ve literally seen people say, if you were to put biceps on Day A instead of Day B, then it’s no longer DC training!!! (Correct me if I have this wrong.)
[/quote]
I’ve been doing DC training for a few weeks now. I’m definitely enjoying it, but it’s too soon for me to assess its efficacy, gains-wise.
Brick, I would say your criticism is spot on. The DC crowd is extremely dogmatic, and at times logically inconsistent. For example, it is considered foolish to perform direct trap work (i.e., shrugs) because deadlifts/rack pulls work the traps indirectly. The analogy that is often thrown around goes along the lines of: “what’s going to give you bigger traps, shrugging 185 or deadlifting 600?”. This is obviously fallacious, because if you can deadlift 600 , you can probably shrug with at least 7-800.
Also, why is it considered redundant to train your traps when you deadlift, but it’s mandatory to train your forearms when you’re already rowing/curling? Why do you train your calves if you’re already squatting/deadlifting/leg-curling?
This kind of thinking strikes me as being wholly inconsistent, and while I do believe that Dante is very knowledgable and has created a very well thought-out system, I don’t believe that he’s infallible, and I do believe that it’s okay to use one’s own critical thinking skills (as long as one actually possesses them)*. I honestly feel that if you’ve been lifting long enough, you already know that you should try the program first, assess your results, and make changes if necessary. I wouldn’t bother posting a thread asking if some minor change is permissible, just to get chastised for it.
*Dunning-Kruger Effect[/quote]
Very smart post and one I see eye-to-eye with.
However, keep in mind, you’re trying to use reason with the bodybuilding population, which doesn’t work so well generally.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
doesn’t Dante also say that you should have built 3lbs/inch of height before starting DC?[/quote]
Yeah, that, and a good strength norm for advanced guys is 455 incline benches. [/quote]
Rest paused for 8-15
If you can’t incline 455 for one within a few years of training you clearly aren’t cut out for this[/quote]
3 lbs/inch BEFORE starting DC? Haha!
Apparently you have to be an highly advanced bodybuilder before you do a straight set to near failure or a set of rest pause reps. [/quote]
i can understand why dante says the thing he does, its to stop newbs from fucking up the routine. i thing it goes a bit overboard but, anyone with a decent amount of time training should know how to push themselves. so this whole wait untill your crazy strong or are an advanced bodybuilder is abit silly to me.[/quote]
Dante also said Ronnie turned pro natural. [/quote]
Considering he has freakshow/Usain Bolt type genetics I can actually just about believe this (still think most likely he was juicing)