[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
I spent like 3 hours reading the stickies at IM and the thread here last night (thanks adderall) it’s a pretty in depth program, I know I need to keep reading before I start anything. Some stuff is still pretty confusing[/quote]
Feel free to email me to get things squared away… I think you’ll like DC quite a bit.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
i like how we can say the exact same thing but no one gives you shit for it.
:)[/quote]
But you didn’t quite say the same thing. You said the program didn’t matter. Scott said no woman is going to make massive gains without AAs. But he left open the possibility that a program like DC might allow a natural woman to make greater gains than others.
I’ve seen women make impressive gains (for women) on a variety of programs on both ends of the volume spectrum. But isn’t that also true of men? Why would the program not matter for women?
[quote]liftingyogini wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
i like how we can say the exact same thing but no one gives you shit for it.
But you didn’t quite say the same thing. You said the program didn’t matter. Scott said no woman is going to make massive gains without AAs. But he left open the possibility that a program like DC might allow a natural woman to make greater gains than others.
I’ve seen women make impressive gains (for women) on a variety of programs on both ends of the volume spectrum. But isn’t that also true of men? Why would the program not matter for women?
[/quote]
now youre just playing semantics. scott and i are saying the same thing.
your question is like asking why a broken down honda civic wouldnt beat a stock corvette in a circuit race, even if they had the same driver.
one just doesnt have the capacity, unless you go around start altering its mechanics, i.e using steroids.
could a honda civic beat another honda civic if one had a better driver, most certainly. but it still wouldnt be amazing, cause theyre both still honda civics.
what im saying is, girls have limits, girls will always gain slower than guys it doesnt matter if they do crossfit or DC or 5x5, if you dont like it blame science, yourself, or god.
shut up now, kthanks.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
liftingyogini wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
i like how we can say the exact same thing but no one gives you shit for it.
But you didn’t quite say the same thing. You said the program didn’t matter. Scott said no woman is going to make massive gains without AAs. But he left open the possibility that a program like DC might allow a natural woman to make greater gains than others.
I’ve seen women make impressive gains (for women) on a variety of programs on both ends of the volume spectrum. But isn’t that also true of men? Why would the program not matter for women?
now youre just playing semantics. scott and i are saying the same thing.
your question is like asking why a broken down honda civic wouldnt beat a stock corvette in a circuit race, even if they had the same driver.
one just doesnt have the capacity, unless you go around start altering its mechanics, i.e using steroids.
could a honda civic beat another honda civic if one had a better driver, most certainly. but it still wouldnt be amazing, cause theyre both still honda civics.
what im saying is, girls have limits, girls will always gain slower than guys it doesnt matter if they do crossfit or DC or 5x5, if you dont like it blame science, yourself, or god.
shut up now, kthanks.
[/quote]
And if I was the owner of such a honda civic, I would obviously want the better driver competing in it so it would win…
I actually did understand you original statement (with a bit of reading between the lines) however it still kinda implied that I should just “do whatever” cause I’ll make little changes anyway. I’m after the fastest gains possible FOR ME, albeit small and slow as they may be, and DC training may be a possible path
kwik kwestion
how are you 18% bodyfat and a PT?
anyway
for what its worth, DC is a program for advanced trainees. im not sure what your training is like now but before you jump into DC you may wanna see if youre actually up for it.
i mean you should have a background in training to failure for sure and it doesnt hurt to be using appreciable weights.
i dont think you should do some B.S. program either, i just think the point of DC - achieving a ton of size and strength - would be kind of lost on a girl mainly because i dont think youd have the ability to increase the weight/reps each training session which is a cornerstone of the program. this isnt nesecerily because you dont have the will power but because you dont have the biological capacity for adding muscle.
but what do i know, im not a doctor, im just a kid on the internet.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
kwik kwestion
how are you 18% bodyfat and a PT?
anyway
for what its worth, DC is a program for advanced trainees. im not sure what your training is like now but before you jump into DC you may wanna see if youre actually up for it.
i mean you should have a background in training to failure for sure and it doesnt hurt to be using appreciable weights.
i dont think you should do some B.S. program either, i just think the point of DC - achieving a ton of size and strength - would be kind of lost on a girl mainly because i dont think youd have the ability to increase the weight/reps each training session which is a cornerstone of the program. this isnt nesecerily because you dont have the will power but because you dont have the biological capacity for adding muscle.
but what do i know, im not a doctor, im just a kid on the internet.[/quote]
See this is the sort of points that I’m after - it may simply not work fundamentally because I cannot increase weights/reps each session - thanks.
I also don’t understand your question about being at PT with 18% bodyfat - can’t tell with ‘internet tone’ whether you’re being sarcastic (ie that’s really high), or if PT’s are fat and you think that’s low…
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
shut up now, kthanks.
[/quote]
Kind of a charming feller, aren’t ya?
Sure, women have limits. Uh, so do “unassisted” men, some more than others. The limits differ but the question is how do you get to the absolute edge of those limits supposing that you want to? You say anything at all will work. (You forgot to mention “Dancing with the Oldies.”) I don’t see the evidence of that in the gyms around here – the Crossfit girls definitely look different from the power liftin’ girls and I don’t just mean BF % – but hey, maybe I’m blinded by estrogen.
One thing I know for sure though is that women can build considerable strength and I say that as someone who has squatted > 2.5 times body weight for reps on nothing stronger than egg whites and a drink of water. I can’t see strength as a limiting factor for women doing DC (assuming a certain number of training years). Whether or not that strength will translate into significant muscular gains for women is a different question (and a good one that no one has answered here with any evidence either way). Might not be worth it for most – on the other hand some women get a secret thrill from lifting heavy. Not your type, I’m betting!
Nice to meet you, though.
[quote]Foxen wrote:
See this is the sort of points that I’m after - it may simply not work fundamentally because I cannot increase weights/reps each session - thanks.
I also don’t understand your question about being at PT with 18% bodyfat - can’t tell with ‘internet tone’ whether you’re being sarcastic (ie that’s really high), or if PT’s are fat and you think that’s low…:/[/quote]
well from my own little rule of thumb with BF% numbers
anything lower than like 8-9 is ripped, contest shape
10 is lean, visible abs
12-14 is lean, abs smoothed
15-18 is not lean, but not fat
20+ = fat
30+ = obese
but i really have no idea, this is just a rule of thumb i use when people say what % they are. itd be a lot easier if everyone just used the verbal descriptions like “visible abs” or “smoothed” which is what i guess theyre trying to convey with the numbers…except when you put it in real words its just a lot clearer…ok im getting way off here.
DC also requires things like “massive eating” which from your given description doesnt sound like a good idea. id say get your diet under more control (not trying to sound coarse) maybe take some of the DC principles like carb cutoffs, fasted cardio, drinking a shit ton of green tea, etc. have you checked out the dogg pound section of intensemuscle.com? you really should first.
honestly me and a lot of guys on here will agree Crossfit is actually a really good program for girls especially if your goal is to just look good and you dont plan on stepping on stage either as figure competitor or a female bodybuilder or if you dont want to compete as a powerlifter. there are some people who want to just look good at the beach, and theres nothing wrong with that but DC isnt for those people, especially females. DC is for people who want to be huge and strong. now i dont know what your goals are, i just know what DC’s goals are.
theres actually a whole 'nother section of this site dedcicated to the female relentless pursuit of muscle, etc etc over at figureathlete.com. im sure theres some girls over there who could totally set you on the right path. plus theyre prob a lot nicer there too.
like Scott said, you can always PM him for DC info (check out the site too though)
but if you still want answers or just suggestions id be more than happy to help also.
[quote]liftingyogini wrote:
Sure, women have limits. Uh, so do “unassisted” men, some more than others. The limits differ but the question is how do you get to the absolute edge of those limits supposing that you want to?
One thing I know for sure though is that women can build considerable strength and I say that as someone who has squatted > 2.5 times body weight for reps on nothing stronger than egg whites and a drink of water. I can’t see strength as a limiting factor for women doing DC (assuming a certain number of training years). Whether or not that strength will translate into significant muscular gains for women is a different question (and a good one that no one has answered here with any evidence either way). Might not be worth it for most – on the other hand some women get a secret thrill from lifting heavy. Not your type, I’m betting!
Nice to meet you, though.
[/quote]
well me, and a guy who’s a mod over at the DC founding website disagree with you for reasons that have been made clear.
women do not have the bio-makeup to produce muscle and strength gains at the same rate as men. DC requires a certain ability to make these gains as the cornerstone (which i already mentioned) is adding weight or reps EVERY time. im not a spokesman for DC, i dont care that much, im simply trying to save you the trouble because if you cant keep up with all the DC principles and functions you arent really doing DC. theres plenty of other things which borrow similar concepts that will produce results that arent DC. it isnt the only program in the world, it isnt the best program in the world.
i dont do DC and i still make gains. i post in a thread where every week guys who dont do DC are making gains too. stop being so deadset on it, theres other ways which are actually feasible, focus on those.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
well from my own little rule of thumb with BF% numbers
anything lower than like 8-9 is ripped, contest shape
10 is lean, visible abs
12-14 is lean, abs smoothed
15-18 is not lean, but not fat
20+ = fat
30+ = obese
[/quote]
I’m pretty sure those guidelines are different for women. 18% is fairly lean for a woman. I have visible abs on some days, but I highly doubt I’m less than 15%, certainly nowhere near 10%!
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
well from my own little rule of thumb with BF% numbers
anything lower than like 8-9 is ripped, contest shape
10 is lean, visible abs
12-14 is lean, abs smoothed
15-18 is not lean, but not fat
20+ = fat
30+ = obese
but i really have no idea, this is just a rule of thumb i use when people say what % they are. itd be a lot easier if everyone just used the verbal descriptions like “visible abs” or “smoothed” which is what i guess theyre trying to convey with the numbers…except when you put it in real words its just a lot clearer…ok im getting way off here.[/quote]
hmmm okay then by your definition I’m somewhere between 12 & 18, with top 4 abs visible…anywaaaay…
[quote]
DC also requires things like “massive eating” which from your given description doesnt sound like a good idea. id say get your diet under more control (not trying to sound coarse) maybe take some of the DC principles like carb cutoffs, fasted cardio, drinking a shit ton of green tea, etc. have you checked out the dogg pound section of intensemuscle.com? you really should first.[/quote]
It’s actually under control, to gain muscle you gotta eat above maintenance, and I’ve been in a growth phase for a little while now. Could be better but, sure. “Massive eating” is only going to be necessary in an amount that allows for the maximum rate of growth for me anyway…read: not that massive.
And yes I’m reading, reading, reading. I never meant to imply that I know much of anything about DC, have just read the basics and wondered if I could do it.
[quote]
honestly me and a lot of guys on here will agree Crossfit is actually a really good program for girls especially if your goal is to just look good and you dont plan on stepping on stage either as figure competitor or a female bodybuilder or if you dont want to compete as a powerlifter. there are some people who want to just look good at the beach, and theres nothing wrong with that but DC isnt for those people, especially females. DC is for people who want to be huge and strong. now i dont know what your goals are, i just know what DC’s goals are. [/quote]
I’d rather eat my own foot than train crossfit style.
I don’t plan on stepping on stage as a competitor, however that does not mean that I don’t wish to look like one.
[quote]
theres actually a whole 'nother section of this site dedcicated to the female relentless pursuit of muscle, etc etc over at figureathlete.com. im sure theres some girls over there who could totally set you on the right path. plus theyre prob a lot nicer there too.[/quote]
Well familiar, thanks. But there’s no info about DC there, for obvious reasons.
Are you not being nice? I didn’t even notice. shrugs
[quote]
like Scott said, you can always PM him for DC info (check out the site too though)
but if you still want answers or just suggestions id be more than happy to help also.[/quote]
I want to be strong. I’m already stronger than most of the female population (obviously), and stronger than most of the gym-going female population at the local gyms aswell (not that that means much haha!!). I’m by no means a powerlifter, but low reps and going balls (snatch??) to the wall really suits me.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
liftingyogini wrote:
Sure, women have limits. Uh, so do “unassisted” men, some more than others. The limits differ but the question is how do you get to the absolute edge of those limits supposing that you want to?
One thing I know for sure though is that women can build considerable strength and I say that as someone who has squatted > 2.5 times body weight for reps on nothing stronger than egg whites and a drink of water. I can’t see strength as a limiting factor for women doing DC (assuming a certain number of training years). Whether or not that strength will translate into significant muscular gains for women is a different question (and a good one that no one has answered here with any evidence either way). Might not be worth it for most – on the other hand some women get a secret thrill from lifting heavy. Not your type, I’m betting!
Nice to meet you, though.
well me, and a guy who’s a mod over at the DC founding website disagree with you for reasons that have been made clear.
women do not have the bio-makeup to produce muscle and strength gains at the same rate as men. DC requires a certain ability to make these gains as the cornerstone (which i already mentioned) is adding weight or reps EVERY time. im not a spokesman for DC, i dont care that much, im simply trying to save you the trouble because if you cant keep up with all the DC principles and functions you arent really doing DC. theres plenty of other things which borrow similar concepts that will produce results that arent DC. it isnt the only program in the world, it isnt the best program in the world.
i dont do DC and i still make gains. i post in a thread where every week guys who dont do DC are making gains too. stop being so deadset on it, theres other ways which are actually feasible, focus on those.
[/quote]
Who is deadset on it??
Foxen
Much respect. Like Deb said thhe fat guidelines are much different for women than men.
The only way to know if DC will put muscle on you is to try it. I would not feed some of these douche leftovers that seem to want to discourage you.
[quote]Foxen wrote:
Who is deadset on it??[/quote]
you are.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
scott and i are saying the same thing.
[/quote]
We aren’t.
DC works for females period.
There are too many posts to address but I’m just going to put some basic thoughts on here.
That is Jules I posted above who worked with Dante for several years, she’s not a freak, I doubt she’s on any drugs.
Things like “massive eating” get misconstrued because guys see Dante’s one day diet from back in 2001 when he was a 285 lb guy trying to get to 300 lbs working a hard labor job all with an ectomorphic back ground. He was somewhere around 550 grams of protein and 7600 calories… does anything REALLY think that Jules or the other females are packing down food like that? lol
High protein is fairly standard… for women it’s likely going to be 1.5 g/lb of bodyweight. After that is totally up to the individual. Someone who needs to lean out a bit is going to be mostly focused on healthy fats and large amounts of fibrous vegetables/salads after their protein intake. They will likely be doing cardio 4-6 times a week and training with 12-20 rep straight sets beating the logbook focusing on their weak points.
Some logic has to be used here… a man who wants to build his back up is going to be hammering the rack deads, dead lifts t bar rows and rack chins HARD. A female doesn’t necessarily want big traps(can detract from their look) so maybe rack deads aren’t their best choice and they are better off with mostly row variations.
A man is going to go to town with squats of all kinds and his best leg presses and hacks for his quads… well a female likely doesn’t require tons of size on her quads and might be better off with some lunges or stepups thrown in there.
A female who’s not in need of large amounts of muscle mass will very likely be doing the 3 way split with cardio every day but legs and maybe even a little post workout, where as man who DOES need a lot of muscle is no doubt on the 2 way with maybe 3 cardio sessions a week. Different needs require different things all under the same DC umbrella.
This isn’t a sissified version of the program, it’s addressing what needs to be done for the look one is after. The principles are the same, high protein, progressive weights on KEY EXERCISES(for that persons need/body), cardio to keep body fat at bay etc but the application is tweaked heavily towards the individuals needs.
Thank you, Scott. That was a most useful post.
Also, kudos to Free2Be for this:
“The only way to know if DC will put muscle on you is try it.”
Yep, nailed it. I’m doing an entirely different program right now (while cutting) but some day I may very well try DC and I’m definitely not going to run away from it because some mod on the DC forum thinks women can’t keep up with the program.
I wouldn’t jump it without talking to other women who are doing it (there obviously are plenty) to figure out an appropriate split/plan – same as any program I jumped into. And if I couldn’t progress or I couldn’t recover cause I’m just too damned feminine, there’s plenty of other stuff out there to try. Don’t worry, it won’t be a tragedy, 781!
[quote]liftingyogini wrote:
Thank you, Scott. That was a most useful post.
Also, kudos to Free2Be for this:
“The only way to know if DC will put muscle on you is try it.”
Yep, nailed it. I’m doing an entirely different program right now (while cutting) but some day I may very well try DC and I’m definitely not going to run away from it because some mod on the DC forum thinks women can’t keep up with the program. [/quote] ? There are a few woman over at IM who train DC as far as I know, I don’t think any mod would object unless the female in question were inexperienced/a beginner still…
[quote]liftingyogini wrote:
I’m definitely not going to run away from it because some mod on the DC forum thinks women can’t keep up with the program.
[/quote]
He’s talking about me lol