A couple more things…
I don’t usually do this much logging in one day but found this Marcus Aurelius quote about complaining from The Daily Stoic:
“It’s endurable” may have to be my mantra for the truly unpleasant situations.
Also, look at this!
Totally forgot to post these pics earlier, but this is my office. And that is my adorable little pooper. And that is my dog right on top of him.
She looks like she’s getting a stern lecture about something she knows she shouldn’t have done.
You could interpret it that way. OR maybe she’s enthralled with you. It looks like she’s almost afraid of how much she loves you.
Bitches love Chris.
Yea 100% agree here, I know 20 mins if jogging (or pretty much anything) won’t out do a poor diet. I think we’re saying the same thing differently:
I think there a million little ways in which being someone who consistently does conditioning through a wide range of activities and heart rate ranges (as opposed to just someone who does jogging a couple of times a week) on top of a good lifting regime, makes you significantly more likely to be year round lean and all round awesome.
If you’re cardiovascularly fit, you feel more energetic you probably do more activities and have more active hobbies. People who exercise a lot in a variety of ways probably aren’t people who sit down/sit still a lot, higher TDEE. If you’re doing a mixture of conditioning 3-5 times per week, let’s say we’re keeping it all fairly light and easy; 3 miles of running one day (300 cals) cycling 5 miles another (200 cals) and half an hour on a rower (300 cals) that’s an additional 800 calories a week, 41600 calories a year. That cumulative effect is going to have a massive impact.
To say nothing of the fact that person is more likely to be careful about what they eat. A lot of this is less about calories burnt and more about just being (or becoming) that person who gets after it in every and all ways possible.
I think I just talked myself in to actually taking conditioning seriously…
Also further to my last reply I’ve been ruminating on the subject and had the thought that I reckon that even more than mindset and calories there is a fundamental shift in human biology (which we already knew) but was thinking gene expression and gut microbiome stuff, again not something that can be measured by calories in Vs calories out, had a brief look (I won’t claim any great ability to read and interpret scientific studies so this is proper lay reading and interpretation and could be entirely wrong), gene expression:
Collectively, exercise studies have led Neufer to hypothesize that the adaptations associated with several weeks of aerobic exercise training actually stem from the cumulative effects of the transient increases in gene expression that occur in response to each individual exercise bout.
Yes an inference from a collection of studies
but interesting nonetheless, taken from this article: Exercise Controls Gene Expression | American Scientist.
And gut microbiome:
The findings show that participation in exercise of moderate to high-intensity for 30–90 min ≥3 times per week (or between 150–270 min per week) for ≥8 weeks is likely to produce changes in the gut microbiota. Exercise appears to be effective in modifying the gut microbiota in both clinical and healthy populations
Again meta analysis type thing, and I couldn’t see if they differentiated between aerobic exercise and strength training, but interesting nonetheless.
I hold to my position:
I could definitely see that and you make some great arguments.
What’s bizarre, is that in all the years Chris and I were married, I was actually the chubbiest as a runner on a low carb diet. I’ll post my fat pics if I can find them.
You know what’s even more interesting though? Group fitness instructors. Back in my cardio queen days – before Chris and I met – I’d take a lot of cardio based group fitness classes like indoor cycling, step, kickboxing, and on top of that I’d do a lot of long distance running with friends.
And what struck me was how, despite wearing bodybug trackers, and doing hours of intense cardio every day, there weren’t many lean instructors. I wasn’t lean either. I had a friend who was obsessed with her calorie intake and did cardio all the time, but never looked any different. I thought she was lovely inside and out, but given all the hours of exercise, I don’t think she was ever satisfied with her body.
I’ve heard a handful of similar stories from other women who used to be cardio addicts; they talk about how they got leaner after backing waaaaay off it, some even giving it up completely.
I’m not telling you all this to argue with you because I think most men – especially those who’ve built muscle and who are hormonally healthy – do awesome with cardio. I’m telling you about a cardio-related phenomenon, that likely has something to do with going overboard.
So I get the impression it’s an individual thing that’s dose-dependent and even hormone dependent.
You are welcome and encouraged to hold that position. To be honest, I miss cardio so much. In the proper doses, the mental and physical benefits are outstanding.
On a personal note, I haven’t been able to do much in the way of cardio or metabolic conditioning because of a reaction that started a couple years ago, and no doctors or tests have been able to explain it or find a solution. So, I stopped looking for answers since nothing helped, and all the heart/lung/blood tests were a total waste of money. So basically, walking, hiking, and intense supersets in the gym are the closest I can get to cardio these days.
Good additions!
Yea it’s definitely dose dependant and definitely needs to be alongside lifting to make you look awesome and probably even easier if you’re a man!
Sorry to hear this:
But on the positive side:
That’s a great selection of things.
I suppose to modify my earlier statement:
I’ve noticed over and over again, one of the very few common denominators with guys who really stay looking great year round (and don’t count calories or run constant cuts) is consistency in the cardio dept
Thanks, not exhaustive and not an arguement, just some of my observations, but definitely know that cardio for most people won’t make or break their physique, I suppose it’s more just that awesome people tend to be very well rounded.
And nothing like a cold (-20oC or less) damp windy day to test your best gears.
This is very interesting to me. I was probably in the best shape of my life during a lull between undergraduate and graduate school, which would have put me in my early 40’s. I was active on TN and started really focusing on weights, taking the time and energy from running (still running, but not the distance). However, progression was difficult for me - it felt like I hit a wall very quickly in terms of progress. Once grad school started (I had four kids at home, a dog, a cat) I had to pull back due to time constraints, and returned to a focus on running because I needed the meditative/stress relief benefits and have never found that focusing on form and counting reps. I’ve posted this pic on these boards before (there aren’t a ton of pictures of me from this period because no one else took them), but this is me at 46. I was running a great deal and using dumbbells for quick upper body supplementation, maybe 15-25 lbs. I kept 10 lb db’s at work to use when I got cold (my current office is always too warm…I hate it, because the db thing is just such a great way to get blood moving, but I only think of it when I’m cold.
Age 46, 4 c-sections. I’ve never been shredded, like you are, Dani. I for some reason am just not strong. So I wonder if there are different types when training people, or whether I have just never really done it correctly.
Yesterday’s Workout
Leg Press
Booty Machine
T-Bar Row
Arnold Press
Looks like I hardly did anything, but this hit most big muscle groups except chest and hammies. So I planned to emphasize those on the next workout. Started with 100 unbroken full ROM leg press reps, which felt almost like cardio and fired up my quads.
Yesterday’s workout was NOT fueled by caffeine, which was okay… I guess. Maybe that’s not a route I need to take right now given the fact that I’ve recently cut cannabis and alcohol. But my caffeine intake is so over the top it’s probably a thing worth limiting.
Today’s Workout
Started with a monster stretching session. I have a pinchy pain in my right butt cheek. It’s not the high ham problem. It’s the other side. So I went through a bazillion mobility drills and stretches. It got better, but not perfect. So how 'bout some deadlifts?
RDL slow and controlled to feel the hammies and glutes working
Dip
Lateral Raise
Seated Cable Row
Push-Up
Today’s workout felt great. I think the front side of my shoulder girdle is pissed at all the chest work I’ve been doing. Horizontal pushing feels kinda risky, and the dips were actually more comfortable on the joints than the push-ups.
Awesome conversation. I love this topic and you are a smoke show, Miss Emily Q. I don’t care if that was an older pic.
So, the women who’ve gotten leaner by limiting or stopping running became cardio addicts in the first place because they had at one point gotten in the best shape of their lives using it.
And then their bodies adapted, and that turned into a journey of depending on more and more just to not go back to their previous weight, and then that turned into overdoing it, and after multiple chronic injuries discovering that it’s not the best route for a hard body, anyway.
The main thing they/we discovered is this:
What worked so well for us at one point in life may not always work for us. This is especially true if your body adapts to a stimulus and there’s no sustainable way to progress it. The people who use cardio for fat loss, and who keep adding mileage, most often discover that they can’t sustain the mileage it would take to stay lean.
But there’s a distinction we need to make. There’s a big difference between a smaller body and a harder body.
Here’s an example. Right before Chris and I eloped (I was 25), I ate less food and increased my cardio in an effort to look nice for our wedding day.
That strategy made me smaller but not harder.
On the flip side, here’s what my body looked like with a focus on building muscle and replacing all cardio with walking:
By focusing on muscle growth, I got harder, and as a side effect the muscle made me smaller and more compact. It’s ironic, but a lot of women lose more fat by not focusing on fat loss, and instead focusing on muscle growth. Muscle changes your hormones, nutrient partitioning, and metabolism.
To be honest, I was in a caloric deficit in both of those pictures above. But emphasizing weight training is the clear winner when it comes to leanness. Especially over the long haul.
Here’s a less lean picture of my upper body without any dieting.
If you want to lose fat quickly, sure, cardio will definitely work on a temporary basis. But it (alone) won’t fire up the metabolism and make you harder in a long-term, sustainable way.
Rachel Cosgrove wrote about this a long time ago for our site, though I believe she’s returned to cardio just because she enjoys it.
So this…
Is a very relatable story to a lot of people. What’s also cool about it is that your focus was on the stress relief benefits and overall enjoyment. I think that’s really great to do for multiple reasons, but, as you might imagine, more is not better, and you were likely doing a proper amount.
So that’s why I was telling Alex in our convo above that it’s quite often dose-dependent, but I should add that it’s dependent on genetics too.
Genetics play a HUMONGOUS role when it comes to cardio and body composition. There are some people who thrive with tons of cardio and can make it the cornerstone of their exercise routine and only get harder.
There’s a man at my gym, a tall lanky guy in his late 60s, who’s done lots of marathons and lifts weights, but he’ll never gain an ounce of fat.
Another man at my church has a similar build. Super lean, tall, natural athlete, loves running, built for it. There are women like this too! They tend to be very slender without even trying. A lot of people refer to these types as “ectomorphs” and when they pack on a little muscle, it’s so clearly defined that it pops, and it’s stunning!
Sweet friend, I have never been shredded either. I don’t have the genetics or the drugs to do that. I’ve gotten as lean as my body will allow, but realized a long time ago that I’m not willing to take the risks required to get that dried out shredded look most associated with pro bodybuilders and veiny fit pro influencers. Thank you for making my day though.
I feel ya here. I suspect though, that we both could get stronger under the guidance of a trainer. While strength is pretty relative, I don’t meet the “standards” most strength coaches have set for what’s considered strong. But I also don’t care that much because there comes a point when strong enough for everyday life is good enough.
Thank you so much for continuing such a great conversation!
The whole post was awesome, but this is something that I’m constantly forced to remember. Incredible point.
Thanks for reading it! I’m glad it resonated.
It’s a tough idea to absorb if you got amazing and nearly instant results with something. And that’s probably why a lot of my workouts still have a sprinkling of CrossFit in them.
CrossFit was not a great long-term fit for me, but for a period of time I got amazing results and had a lot of fun.
Oooh yes! We had one of those freezing damp windy days yesterday. It really put my resolution to the test! 
Here’s another general cardio observation:
For the regular person (not the more serious T Nation type) with the main goal of fat loss, adding cardio without making other changes often leads only to weight maintenance.
How’s that happen?
Because they’ve been slowly gaining weight for years. When they add cardio they go from a caloric surplus to maintenance calories, not a caloric deficit. The amount of calories expended through exercise only brings them back to maintenance, but they’re maintaining a still-fat body.
Now, that’s better than slowly gaining 10 pounds of fat in your 30s and another 12 in your 40s, but it’s not what they’re really after. That’s gotta be frustrating too. But that’s how gen pop thinks: “I’ve gained too much weight. Gotta do cardio, obvi!” It’s their first option, when it should be further down the list.
Obviously, they’re leaving out a couple of things, like cleaning up their diets and weight training. I’d rather have them ditch the cardio, lift weights, take some walks, and figure out how to make some food substitutions that naturally drops them a couple hundred calories per day (i.e. a protein-first style of plan).
Does anyone else love arm wrestling videos?!
If you’re in my log, this is required viewing. YOU HAVE TO WATCH THIS.
There’s another guy who weighs 160-ish pounds, and he beats nearly every big guy he arm wrestles.
I think with the right trainer, I could do really well at competitive arm wrestling. I actually fantasize about that.
I can’t with the arm wrestling.
Saw a dude’s forearm snap and I just can’t unsee it. I’ve turned down a few dozen arm wrestling challenges since seeing it - even ones I’m almost guaranteed to win.
Very true. What’s deceiving though is that the maintenance usually comes after the body adapts. Before it adapts, cardio seems like the most effective fat loss method ever. So then people get tricked into believing that they just need to do more of it. Kinda like dieting. People who hit a plateau while on a keto diet just think they need to keto even harder.
Before we got married, I’d meet with a group of friends for long-run Saturdays. And some of the most dedicated middle-aged men had a physique that never changed, but never got particularly fit looking. (These were not ectomorphs.) Then when they’d go on a running hiatus, they’d gain a bunch of weight back. These were men who’d do group fitness too, but had never intentionally built muscle with a trainer hired to help them build muscle.
They thought, “well muscle makes people bigger, and I don’t want to get bigger, so I’ll just do these classes and run.”
There’s definitely value in both cardio and group fitness but again, nothing affects body composition the way weight training does.
