I’ve recently been reading a lot of Dan John’s work and I got interested in this one split.
Now, before anyone jumps and says, “oh, yet another program critique request thread, boy!,” I’m not asking whether this split is good or anything.
It just got me curious that Dan John, which I have no doubt is an expert in getting people to put on muscle mass, is using quite a different approach than what’s commonly seen in bodybuilding training.
To sum up this split, it’s a 3 days a week full-body program based on movements like squats, clean and presses, pullups, bench presses, curls, and loaded carries.
While this is profoundly different than the traditional bodybuilding approach (like body part splits, using manu movements for the same muscle group…), Dan definitely sounds like he knows what he’s talking about.
So my question is mainly directed towards the bodybuilding guys (@robstein@BrickHead@The_Mighty_Stu), but of course anyone’s opinion is welcome, especially if they have trained for hypertrophy for a while or they have tried a similar routine: how does this kind of approach do compared to traditional hypertrophy training, assuming diet and recovery are taken care of in both cases?
Keep in mind that bodybuilding is a different thing than mass building. Bodybuilding is about building mass in a manner that achieves a specifically desired physique. You’re attempting to not only put on size, but also the illusion of size, by emphasizing certain musculature that creates a more striking appearance. A 50" chest is a big chest. A 50" chest on a 40" waist is still a big chest. A 50" chest on a 30" waist is the same sized chest, but looks significantly bigger due to proportions.
Dan’s approach to mass building is NOT focused on creating this appearance; it’s focused on simply building mass. Since the goal is simpler, the approach can be as well. And Dan’s approach is not unique in that regard. I don’t say that to denigrate Dan at all, because his approach is an awesome approach, but more to say that he’s not the only one to advocate such an approach to mass building. You saw this through all of John McCallum’s “Complete Keys to Progress”, through Perry Radar’s routines, through the advice of Stuart McRobert, and many other older authors.
If your goal is bodybuilding, you should train like a bodybuilder, and you should get a coach. If your goal is to simply get big, it’s not that hard.
Like said above, it’s a different approach to bodybuilding training because it’s NOT an approach to bodybuilding training. In bodybuilding, your goals are driven by aesthetics: you want to look like you can lift a house when posing on stage. This Dan John program puts strength and mass above aesthetics: you want to actually be able to lift a house and how you look in speedos with a spray tan is not your top concern (no offense at all meant to bodybuilders).
It’s also the program recommended by many for beginners. We all tell beginners to just focus on adding mass everywhere by doing the compound movements. We also see a lot of recommendations for high frequency training for naturals.
It seems like this would be a pretty standard approach for beginners looking to do anything. I’d consider it a GPP program where SPP would pick a specialty such as bodybuilding, power lifting, strongman, etc.
What if I, a trainee with just over 2 years of experience, being unhappy with the mass I’ve put on so far, decided to give this a try for 6 weeks?
Would it be suitable for me in your opinion? I’m also currently in a cutting phase, and John recommends using that approach of his after leaning out, so the timing would also be perfect.
Do it. 6 weeks goes by so fast and is such a small amount of time in your training life you will barely notice it.
If you have been doing the standard B.B. approach this program will probably disabuse you of many of your preconceived notions about “mass programs” and “full body programs”, etc…
Something to remember is that when it comes to training, there might be a “perfect” program, a 10/10, but there is no “zero” as long as you are training hard. WORST case scenario is that the program wasn’t the optimal one for your goal, but you aren’t going to make no progress or regress from this program.
Yeah, I like to tell this to myself when I’m unsure about a program… Fact is, looking back at this year of training, I fell like I haven’t made a whole lot of progress. I only gained about 3 kg on the scale (I got up to 80 kg from 74 of last year, and I’m currently weighing 76.4 kg), and after the cut is over I might end up weighing less than my minimum of last year!
I know this is likely a diet issue also, but I did gain fat this winter so it’s hard for me to believe I wasn’t eating enough to build muscle but I was eating enough to gain fat.
This truly is a period in which I’m feeling disappointed with my “progress” so far
You’re 18 years old, and you just barely turned 18. Your body isn’t done growing yet, and that means your year of training was done as a 17 year old.
This is a LONG haul. I’ve been training for as long as you’ve been alive, and I’m still making progress and I’m still not done. These small gains made year to year add up to HUGE gains once you do it for long enough.
You know, you’re right, it’s just that I can’t wait to actually look like I lift (although irl seems like people can definitely tell and I often get comments).
It’s that I often read about “newbie” gains, and how at my age your hormonal profile is such that it should allow you to make “more gains in two years than you’ll ever make in the remainder of your training career…”, well if that’s the case it’s not looking too promising for me! Lol
Now that I think about it too, at least 6 months of this 2 year period were spent eating severely suboptimally (I recall not having a post workout meal as I’d train at nights for the first half of year) because I lived with my mum and she wouldn’t allow me to eat that much, and even when I could decide what I’d eat, it took me a while to actually work up to eating 3,000 kcal a day or more. So basically, I wasted lots of time…
Now I have tightened things up much more so I hope that from the next months on I’ll finally start to see those gains that are supposed to come when hard work is in place and one’s this young, both as far as actual age and training age.
This is one of those silly quotes that the internet likes to throw around. If it was true, there would be WAY more jacked teenagers walking around. When I was 17, I had zero obligations. All I did was train, eat and rest. Yeah, I had school, but that was nothing. I’m 32, have a career and a family that depends on me, and I’m making much better progress than I did at 17, because I know how the hell to train, what my limitations are, and how to push hard. Is my test level lower than it was at 17? Yeah, probably some, but it’s such an insignificant difference it’s not worth noting. A teenager isn’t going to have test levels like some guy TAKING test, and though their body is producing a lot of muscle, a lot of that is simply maturing to a point of manhood, rather than getting jacked.
Stick with it for a decade and you’ll be something scary. Biggest issue is that people quit too often.
If your main goal is to gain mass, why are you going on a “cut”? If you’re worried about fat gain, it’s going to be more difficult to build mass. I was the same way at your age, I was worried about losing my abs and never gained any significant mass. Once I let go of that mentality I started packing the muscle on and looked much better even though I wasn’t as lean. You can always lose fat later on. Also, this is just semantics and doesn’t really matter, but that Dan John program isn’t a “split” as you called it. You’re training the entire body three days a week, you’re not splitting it up.
Yup, I thought I’d corrected it in my post but it slipped through. I know the difference, it’s just that when referring to a program I often use the word split without thinking about it. Lol I even made a point to edit it before submitting but I didn’t notice I’d called it a split more than once.
My end goal is really to have a physique that’s as aesthetically as possible. So since it’ll take quite a while, and summer is getting close, I thought that losing fat would do more in terms of aesthetics than gaining as much mass as I can in just over a month.
As summer begins, I’ll start bulking again, just paying a little bit more attention to fat gain than I would during winter, then I’ll go all-out towards the end of the summer (still avoiding becoming a fat slob). That’s basically my plan.
I know in the long term I could put on more mass if I didn’t spend 6 weeks a year cutting, but I believe that only when you have much more mass, can you afford to be at a higher bf% and still look good. I’m not there yet.
You’ve received a lot of great advice so far but I have a little to add.
You asked if this program was for you… Well, have you ever done anything like it? If not, then you should do it (in its entirety) for the experience alone.
When I was 17 and approaching 18 I gained 20 lbs in a summer. I wasn’t lean but I was big for a damn high school senior.
I’m 33 now. I basically look the same give or take a few lbs of fat and muscle. You know why? Because I’m an idiot! I’ve worried about being lean and having abs and it’s destroyed my growth. So I look good lean? Yes. Do I look swole or shredded? No (I think you need to be big and lean to qualify for that term). Have I reached my strength goals? No.
Don’t be me! Eat and train to grow. Cutting is easy. You just don’t eat as much as you should. Gaining muscle takes time and the sooner you start the bigger you’ll be.
that’s good. it keeps you hungry for more. Sometimes, when I look in the mirror, I think ‘god dammit I’m small. Maybe one day I’ll actually get somewhere with this’. And I think that’s a good thing, if you have big dreams.
Re: Dan John… I like his training philosophy, and his programs. I’ve run a few. They always get me results. I like how simple he keeps it. That’s in line with my own philosophy.
I think you can run Dan John programs for a long time, and successfully build a lot of mass, without needing to specialize with a bodybuilding-style template until you’re getting close to wanting to actually compete in bodybuilding. I think what Dan John preaches will help most lifters achieve their goals.
Make sure you really get a lot of food in -its a actually a good template for burning fat, the full body nature and farmers walks etc eat up calories, a lot of newbs guys just get stronger and lean out a bit if not pushing the nutrition also. A big cheat meal once a week not a bad idea