Cy - Steroids as Anti-Inflammatories?

Nutrition
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I've heard, I think it was the Lonman, state that steroids in general have anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressant properties, and I was wondering how well they were understood.  Do all AASs exhibit the same effects on the immune system, or does it differ from steroid to steroid?

The reason I ask is that I’ve seen two anecdotal reports from two individuals with a condition known as Alopecia Universalis (autoimmune condition resulting in loss of all body hair), who were able to completely reverse the symptoms of this disease while on a cycle that included nandrolone decanoate. In fact, the one person whom I’ve corresponded with claimed to only have taken 200mg / week of deca along with 100mg test cypionate.

Alopecia Universalis has been shown to be a Th1 type autoimmune disorder, with elevated levels of IFN gamma, IL-2, and possibly TNF alpha in the tissues. I was wondering if the Deca might be acting as an antagonist to one or more of these cytokines, and thus inducing remissions in the disease. In all cases, hair grew back shortly after beginning the cycle, fell out again shortly after ceasing, and this effect was reproducible.

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Bump for the Cy-borg.

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[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
I’ve heard, I think it was the Lonman, state that steroids in general have anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressant properties, and I was wondering how well they were understood. Do all AASs exhibit the same effects on the immune system, or does it differ from steroid to steroid?

The reason I ask is that I’ve seen two anecdotal reports from two individuals with a condition known as Alopecia Universalis (autoimmune condition resulting in loss of all body hair), who were able to completely reverse the symptoms of this disease while on a cycle that included nandrolone decanoate. In fact, the one person whom I’ve corresponded with claimed to only have taken 200mg / week of deca along with 100mg test cypionate.

Alopecia Universalis has been shown to be a Th1 type autoimmune disorder, with elevated levels of IFN gamma, IL-2, and possibly TNF alpha in the tissues. I was wondering if the Deca might be acting as an antagonist to one or more of these cytokines, and thus inducing remissions in the disease. In all cases, hair grew back shortly after beginning the cycle, fell out again shortly after ceasing, and this effect was reproducible.[/quote]

ChrisPowers,

Sorry I didn’t see this sooner. Some steroids, I don’t know that I’d say all, at this point, have demonstrated an ability to inhibit or interfere with NFkappaB activity, and activation of that transcription factor is how various inflammatory conditions are mediated. I do know that DHEA, testosterone and guggulsterone have all demonstrated an inhibitory effect upon NFkappaB activity/activation. Not coincidentally, both DHEA and guggulsterone have shown some success with arthritis and other inflammatory conditions. It’s also the exact reason I think Dr. Leahy found so much success in using Myalgistat (contains a more potent derivative of DHEA and guggulsterone) with his patients.

I haven’t seen any data evaluating the effect seen with C-17 alkylated androgens, but I would suspect that if there were any significant variance amongst anabolic steroids, in terms of this effect, I would guess it would be with those and also those in which the nucleus is altered.

So, having said that, it would seem plausible that what your friends have experienced was a result of the testosterone and nandrolone being used. It would be interesting to see how they responded to a product which contained A7-E and guggulsterone as well.

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Thanks a lot for answering this, Cy. That’s interesting about the NF-Kappa B. I watched a lecture by David Baltimore of Caltech on this very topic. Fascinating stuff, but a bit over my head (esp. concerning specific assays that I’m not familiar with since my background is not in biology).

Regarding my lameass theory, I had been doing some research, and learned that women with this disorder (and others with Th1 type autoimmune disorders) often experience full remissions during pregnancy, only to have symptoms return shortly after giving birth. I figured this was explained by the fact that women shift from a cellular Th1 dominant immune system to a humoral Th2 type during pregnancy.

I then read that most AASs cause a shift from Th1 to Th2 type immunity, and was wondering if this might also be the cause of the reversal of symptoms that was observed in these men. What do you think? If so, does anything pop to mind that might be most effective at causing and maintaining such a shift? Do you have any idea why androgens have this effect on the immune system in the first place? I realize the answers to these questions might be too broad in scope to be addressed on an Internet forum. If you could direct me to any literature that might help me to understand this mechanism of action, I would appreciate that just as much.

Anecdotally, I’ve been taking Maximum Strengh HOT-ROX for about three weeks now–two pills twice per day–and haven’t noticed any effect thus far. I also suffer from this disorder.

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I also suffer from Alopecia Universalis. It is really hard on me to deal with and I have tried everything to no avail to reverse my condition. I have never tried AAS though. I have had Alopecia for over 2 1/2 years. I have taken HOT-ROX, Red Bands and now Maximum Strength HOT-ROX pretty much all the time since it was intoduced and have noticed no hair re-growth. I have also used MAG-10 and 4-AD-EC over the past few years also (I don’t know if they have the same anti-inflammatory effects as AAS) and have noticed nothing as far as anti-inflammatory effects.

Chris, Cy…if you have any more information about this, I would love to hear about it.

This condition really effects my self-esteem/ confidence, thus my social life so I would love to find out more information about this. Thanks.

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[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:

The reason I ask is that I’ve seen two anecdotal reports from two individuals with a condition known as Alopecia Universalis (autoimmune condition resulting in loss of all body hair), who were able to completely reverse the symptoms of this disease while on a cycle that included nandrolone decanoate. In fact, the one person whom I’ve corresponded with claimed to only have taken 200mg / week of deca along with 100mg test cypionate.
[/quote]

Where did you see these reports? Can you email these reports to me? Have you tried Deca/Test Cyp on yourself? Did it work on you too?

Cy, If this does work, How long of a cycle can you do to keep the hair growth? If these steroids are not good for long term use, can you think of others that will give the same effects that you can use long term???vThis is really important to me. I really want my hair back. I will try anything.

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Hey, John. I’m sorry to hear about your condition and the difficulty that you’re having in dealing with it. Remember, your long term health is vastly more important than any hair, and maintaining your health should remain your primary concern. Imagine if Deca was effective, but you needed to take 2000mg / week for 18 months in order to reverse your symptoms. Sure you’d have hair, but your testicles will have atrophied to the size of peas, your heart may have enlarged to the size of a cantaloupe, and I’m sure you can think of about 100 more adverse effects that you might experience. Then imagine if an effective treatment became available two weeks later? That would, in a word, suck.

So I’m interested in understanding why certain steroids may encourage remission, and possibly exploiting that mechanism of action through other means. Or, if possible, finding a particularly effective androgen and possibly experimenting with it with the help of a progressive endocrinologist or HRT specialist at “natural” doses. For the record, I have no objection to people who use gear, but cycling indefinitely would seem excessive, potentially dangerous, and prohibitively expensive.

But having low self-esteem and a poor self-image is no way to go through life. It leads to depression, which can keep you out of the gym and keep you from doing the things you enjoy, which can lead to even less self-esteem, which can lead to anti-social behavior, etc. It’s a downward spiral that you don’t want to be on; trust me. In light of that, don’t discount seeing a therapist or psychiatrist. There’s no shame in it, and the alternative is unacceptable.

As for your other questions, I’ll PM you the info later tonight. I’m at work presently. I also look forward to Cy’s response (assuming he’s able to do so). We’re very fortunate to have access to him and his insight, and he is exceedingly generous with his time.

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I’ll offer as much as I can on the topic, but it’s going to be limited as I’ve had to look over a few papers to get an understanding of the condition. A few key points to be made. One, the precise etiology is far from clear. This makes it difficult to say what type of treatment would be beneficial.
I have seen that corticosteroid treatment has shown some success in some cases, and this goes back to NF-kappaB, as glucocorticoids are known inhibitors of the transcription factor. Certain androgens, as I’ve said previously may also have an inhibitory effect upon it, although via a different mechanism.
Last, while it’s certainly interesting that a few people have benefited from exogenous androgen use, it’s far from conclusive enough to where I’d actually begin recommending it to people who weren’t already planning on doing so in the first place. I’m just not comfortable in recommending one do so. I’ve seen that there’s a high rate of spontaneous remission, which further creates a problem in terms of determining efficacy, but was informed by a friend of mine who’s pretty knowledgeable about the condition, that such remissions aren’t common with universalis, so perhaps there is some merit, but again, it’s just not enough to where I would feel comfortable telling someone who isn’t already using exogenous androgens, to begin using them.
Oh and I’ll paste a link to an abstract in which the full-text has a good review of NF-kappaB.

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You’re the man, Cy. Thanks again.

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Thanks Cy.

I have been weighing the options of using steroids over the past few years but never ending up using them because of the sucess I have had with MAG-10/ 4-AD.

But, I have tried everything for alopeica with no results over the past 2 1/2 years so I would like to give this a try. To me, it’s worth it.

I have re-read your “Never Ending Cycle” article and you only mentioned methandrostenolone w/anastrozole & clomid or stanozolol w/anastrozole & clomid.

How would one go about using Deca/Test Cyp for long term use?

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[quote]Cy Willson wrote:

I haven’t seen any data evaluating the effect seen with C-17 alkylated androgens, but I would suspect that if there were any significant variance amongst anabolic steroids, in terms of this effect, I would guess it would be with those and also those in which the nucleus is altered.[/quote]

Sorry to bother you again, Cy, but I was wondering if you could clarify this statement. I thought I understood it, but on rereading, I’m not so sure.

Do you mean that you would only expect 17-alpha alkylated steroids to differ in effect, whereas beta esterified steroids should be expected to all have similar effects? In other words–in regard to anti-inlammatory action–if Deca did X, then Testosterone Enanthate can be expected to also do X if taken in comparable doses? Yet who knows what Dianabol might do, if anything?

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[quote]John DeVito wrote:
Thanks Cy.

I have been weighing the options of using steroids over the past few years but never ending up using them because of the sucess I have had with MAG-10/ 4-AD.

But, I have tried everything for alopeica with no results over the past 2 1/2 years so I would like to give this a try. To me, it’s worth it.

I have re-read your “Never Ending Cycle” article and you only mentioned methandrostenolone w/anastrozole & clomid or stanozolol w/anastrozole & clomid.

How would one go about using Deca/Test Cyp for long term use?[/quote]

No, no. I made a point to say that you’re limited in respect to 17 alpha-alkylated androgens for long term use due to hepatotoxicity, and thus something like 200 mg/week of testosterone or 4-AD would be the better choice.

I don’t recommend long term use with nandrolone and testosterone. If you’re planning on HRT for life, then perhaps 100-200 mg/week. Again though, I don’t want to get involved in having someone take androgens over prolonged periods of time, for the sake of speculation about benefits with other conditions.

Hope that helped.

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[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
Cy Willson wrote:

I haven’t seen any data evaluating the effect seen with C-17 alkylated androgens, but I would suspect that if there were any significant variance amongst anabolic steroids, in terms of this effect, I would guess it would be with those and also those in which the nucleus is altered.

Sorry to bother you again, Cy, but I was wondering if you could clarify this statement. I thought I understood it, but on rereading, I’m not so sure.

Do you mean that you would only expect 17-alpha alkylated steroids to differ in effect, whereas beta esterified steroids should be expected to all have similar effects? In other words–in regard to anti-inlammatory action–if Deca did X, then Testosterone Enanthate can be expected to also do X if taken in comparable doses? Yet who knows what Dianabol might do, if anything?[/quote]

Well, not necessarily. I meant that if there were going to be dramatic differences in terms of activity, I would suspect it would be between alkylated and esterfied androgens, but I didn’t mean that all 17 beta-esterfied androgens will be the same, not by any means. 17 alpha-alkylated androgens have been shown to have unique activities which esterfied androgens lack. You can find more on medline. Key point to be made, those bulky methyl groups in certain positions and alterations of the nucleus, can result in significant changes in shape, and as we know, shape is directly related to function.

Hope that cleared things up.

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[quote]Cy Willson wrote:

Well, not necessarily. I meant that if there were going to be dramatic differences in terms of activity, I would suspect it would be between alkylated and esterfied androgens, but I didn’t mean that all 17 beta-esterfied androgens will be the same, not by any means. 17 alpha-alkylated androgens have been shown to have unique activities which esterfied androgens lack. You can find more on medline. Key point to be made, those bulky methyl groups in certain positions and alterations of the nucleus, can result in significant changes in shape, and as we know, shape is directly related to function.

Hope that cleared things up.[/quote]

Gotcha.

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Cy,

Well then what’s the maximum length of time that you can stay on a cycle of deca/test?

How long do you have to stay off before you can go back on again?

Sorry to put you on the spot for answering these questions but I definitely want to try and see it if works. If it doesn’t at least I come out of it with a bigger/stronger/leaner body.