I read that you should not do a cutting phase after you finish a cycle of Mag 10 because you will lose some of the gains that you made, so my question is: is it better to do a cutting phase before you start a cycle of Mag 10 or how long after should you wait before you cut down? I’d be using tribex, T2, and methoxy during the cutting phase also.
I made that original statement in another thread, but I need to clarify. My point was that it is often a mistake to go from a mass diet (which I assume one would be using while on an androgen and wanting to gain muscle) straight to a strict keto low calorie diet, and vice versa. There needs to be more of a transition. All too often we go from one extreme to another and lose too much muscle or add too much fat in the process. Working with John Berardi on a series of articles you’ll probably see soon at T-mag has really opened my eyes to this. There can and should be a decrease in calories after a mass phase where androgens are used and training volume is increased. Once that phase is over, lower cals a little to reflect the lowered activity level, but it is a mistake to go directly to a crazy hardcore cutting program. This is true whether you’re using MAG-10 or not.
As for your question, opinions vary but I’d lose the fat first. The timeline could look like this: Cut–Bulk/MAG-10–Maintain–Maintain–Cut (slowly). Then length of each section is up to you and based on your goals and needs.
Wondering then if Mag-10 could be used during a cutting cycle and what would its effects be during the cutting phase? would it help keep the muscle or maybe even help add a couple of pounds during cutting?
shorty- People have long used steroids along with cutting phases to preserve muscle and hardness. This has also been done successfully with 4-AD (Androsol) in diets like the Fat Fast. Since MAG-10 is much better than Androsol then it should work in this capacity even better. My guess is one could go on a pretty severe diet and not have to worry much about muscle loss while using MAG-10.
If willing to do a longer cycle, an outstanding approach is to cut for
a few weeks, say 3 weeks, in the beginning
of the cycle, then have 2 weeks of gains
(which could easily be 15 lb LBM, gains
being improved by the previous weeks of
dieting and androgen use) and then either
end the cycle, or if necessary cut for
another few weeks while still using androgen.
As Chris said, cutting, especially severe cutting, immediately after
a cycle, not using androgen, tends to
cause severe muscle loss. So if you cut
after bulking weeks you want to stay on
the androgen, and keep the weights up.
To set up my question I must refer to a great article that John Berardi wrote on the timing of a cutting diet.
Towards the end of that column, John cited an amazing study. I hope my summary isn’t too simplistic. Essentially, when already overweight folks overeat (bulking), they tend to gain more fat than muscle, while that same calorie-rich diet generates more muscle than fat in the lean folks. Conversely, when already overweight folks undereat (cutting), they preserve far more muscle mass than the lean folks on a similar cutting diet. Accordingly, Berardi’s conclusion was to cut first, then bulk. (Again, I hope that’s not too simplistic.)
But Chris, when you said “vice versa” in your first response on this thread, did you also mean after a severe cutting phase, having achieved single digit bf, we should “gradually” up the calories? I understand a slow tapering after a bulking phase, but vice versa? A slow increase after a cutting phase? Really? I’d hoped, based on that study, that one could dive into a high protein, high calorie diet confident that the present leanness would insure a mostly hypertrophic response. Indeed, we’d be uniquely poised to gain LBM as never before. No declarations here. Just curious, and grateful for the discussion. I’m really looking forward to the articles you’re writing with Mr. Berardi.
Steve- Yes, that’s what I meant, but let me explain. First, much depends on ones natural state, some people are natural beanpoles, some are naturally chunky. This can be changed of course through effort but I do think there are natural states from which we all come. Genetics in other words. Now if a person had dieted down to a very lean state and that state isn’t “natural” for him, then to start an immediate and hardcore bulking program would only lead to him adding a lot of fat in a hurry, and some muscle too of course.
Second, much depends on the diet used to get lean. Most people, because of the speed and their hardcore attitude, go on strict keto diets to drop fat. Let’s say they do this and get down to 7% bodyfat. They decide to do a mass phase. In the words of Berardi, “The diet has primed them for fat gain.” Now I supposed if you did a sensible mass plan like Massive Eating and kept the carbs under control, this fat gain may not be so bad. But in my observations (and yes, I’ve done this before too unfortunately) most people don’t do that. Instead, “mass phase” means "eat every goddamn thing that fits in your mouth and can’t get away- pizza, cokes, candy, fried foods, pets, etc. Then you’re really in trouble. Thus, a transition is always better between extreme diets. Impatience in the problem here.
Lastly, that was a great study John found, but when he says that fat people may be able to go on a more extreme diet and not lose too much muscle, I assume he’s talking about really fat people- the obese. Not a guy that’s 10 or 15 pounds heavier than normal because he’s at the end of the mass phase and he’s down (or up, I guess) to only having a two-pack and not a six pack. I would also guess that those skinny people who can go on a bulking diet and not gain much fat are those that fit into the naturally skinny category, the ectos, not a guy who’s dieted his ass off to get in that state.
And let’s not forget that formerly fat people have a large number of shrunken fat cells still in their bodies. They’re shrunken, but they’re still there. If they go on a mass phase it’s like they have all these hungry sponges in there just waiting to fill up. The cure- lipo. Sad, but true. My lowest bodyfat percentage ever was 6%. I felt like shit and it was a daily struggle to stay at 6%. I also lost a lot of muscle getting to that state (this was in pre-T-mag and pre-supplements-that-actually-work times). Yet at 6% I still had little bits of side fat, tiny love handles. Why? I had been really fat in my early 20’s and back when I was a kid. (I was a chunky fucker in 5th grade. Must have been the advent of Atari!) There was no way I could get any leaner without buckets of drugs and I was already unhealthy getting to that super ripped state. So I’m one of those that has to be careful bulking up because of “sins” of the past (being fat in college). When I can afford it, I’ll probably get Dr. Nadler to do his magic. BTW, you may be asking, “How do those transformation contest winners seem to lose all their fat and not have these little leftover pockets?” Answer #1- They probably weren’t fat for long and weren’t fat in their youth. Answer #2- Duct tape. Really. Old trick gleaned from beauty pageant contestants.
So, as you can see, there are several things to think about here.
Ok, so how long should the transition phases last?
Good thread. Here’s a periodization strategy
that I’ve used and it has worked well for me
and a couple other people I’ve recommended it
to. Do a 6 week fat loss phase, below
maintenance kcals, and higher reps (low % of
1RM), with short rest periods. Then do one
week of maintenance kcal + “active recovery”
training. Then switch to a 6 week “mass”
cycle, significantly above maintenance kcals,
and mid rep (moderate % of 1RM), mid rest
training. Then do 1 week of maintenance kcal
- “active recovery” training. Then switch to a
6 week strength phase, with maintenance or
slightly above kcals, heavy weight (high %
of 1RM) and long rest periods. Then take one
week completely off to recover. Then repeat.
I also do 2 week micro cycles during each
phase - altering the exercises after two weeks
to avoid stagnation. Which of these 3 phases
you choose to use your Mag-10 on would depend
on which of the three goals is your priority:
fat loss, muscle gain, or strength. And of
course you could switch which phase you use
it in, as long as they aren’t back to back
phases. As long as you only use androgens on
one of the phases, it still allows you to be
“off” 2/3 of the time as Bill recommends. This
would allow you to do 2&1/2 complete training
cycles per year. And the “transition” weeks
are important for avoiding any “rebound”, for
recovery, and for normalizing you overall
system. So they are worth doing.
Good thread indeed. Great feedback, guys. I too have been guilty of reinventing “Massive Eating” according to my own cravings. That system requires nearly as much discipline as a cutting diet, but there is a misperception of leeway. In my case this is exacerbated because, after a cutting phase, I can eat nearly anything I want for about two weeks. (As Chris noted, this kind of person is not really prone to fat.) Before long, I’m telling myself that I’ve reinvented my metabolism, and I can eat anything I want for the rest of my life. At that point, I gore the flounder. My 7% turns to 12.5 %, and I stop looking at my abs altogether. I find solace in the welcome girth of my upper body, which takes the biggest hit when I’m cutting. So Chris is reinforcing what I need to hear relative to discipline while bulking. It’s those two weeks of outrageous license after a cutting phase that lure me into a false sense of total dietary freedom.
Anyway, it’s cool to talk about transitions. The concepts of each diet by themselves are clearly understood, and we revel in their single-minded purpose. But the bridge between them is less certain. Hey, Chris, sorry to divert the thread, but I think you’d mentioned an upcoming revisitation of the MRP diet. Any idea when that article will appear? Whether cutting or bulking, MRP’s are a mainstay of my diet.
I’m with you gentlemen. Steve, I feel your pain. Lord knows I’ve ‘gored the flounder’ before as well in regards to using my post cutting phase bulking cycle as a ‘license to feed’. Back in the day when TC was still at MM, I did the ABCDE diet and really got excellent initial results…however, by the 10-12th day of overfeeding I was beginning to put fat back on like a fiend. So I had to put the brakes on big time…which is why TC revised the diet here, since many others obviously experienced the same thing. So Free’s periodization program absolutely hits home…and you’re right, DISCIPLINED overfeeding IS nearly as challenging as underfeeding is. Thanks for the input Free.
Thanks JRandall. I didn’t know about the revised ABCDE diet. As if the physiological rebound isn’t bad enough, there is a psychological reflex after a cutting cycle – especially a successful one – which brings an overwhelming sense of “a feast deserved.” It’s valid, but not in perpetuity. Funny… Garden variety bulking phases can just sort of morph into something else over time, but stricter cutting phases tend to reach a certain date, and then boom, call Dominos! Or more regrettably, KEEP calling Dominos. Even now, I’m imagining what greater diet liberties MAG-10 may extend to us. On Nandrosol, I just ATE ANYTHING and got bigger and stronger. One of the hidden dangers of effective supplements is the ill-advised freedoms they encourage. The whole “what can I get away with?” mentality is contrary to excellence in any pursuit, but man, it’s such a human response.
My pleasure Steve…the revised abcde diet is listed under
‘ABCDE Diet: The next generation’ in T-mag archives, or just go to the Diet Manifesto and check it out. Hopefully, I can hold off my next mass phase until Mag-10 is out. I want to get the most out of those calories, but plan on using Berardi’s massive eating this time around to keep the fat off…I’ll probably take Sunday as my ‘liberty’ day for the sweet stuff.
Cool, JR. We’re in similar situations relative to MAG-10 timing. But I decided to squeeze in a mass phase. The remaining Nandrosol on my shelf was too much to resist. (Boy, did I love that stuff. I think I’ll bury the last empty bottle in a quiet ceremony out back.) The “eight week (now possibly six week)” ETA for MAG-10… I hope that’s solid. No company has earned my trust like Biotest, but I know some production facets are out of their hands. Anyway, JR, if you train hard and stay lean until MAG-10, just think how primed you’ll be to grow, and that in winter, the perfect season to put on size.