Pre exhaust as autsin said. Do them at the end of your workout and even superset them with another lat exercise. Pull to navel and squeeze the lats. If you cant feel them then you are really doing something wrong. Its much easier to feel the muscle when it is pumped. Also if you dont want to do them at the end make sure as you start use light weight focus on squeeze and holding which will help pump and MMC so when you get to a higher weight your MMC is good and you have the movemnt down.
Pre-exhaust to get better back stimulation is a good idea. But fatiguing the likely weakest link in the chain is not a good idea. Youll never be able to row big weight if your biceps are tired.
Pre-exhaust your back with straight arm pulldowns or HS pullover. Something like that.
If you had the problem of your back being too big then your idea would be good.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[some may] never be able to row big weight if [their] biceps are tired.
[/quote]
Disagree as written. Fixed.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[some may] never be able to row big weight if [their] biceps are tired.
[/quote]
Disagree as written. Fixed.[/quote]
You can disagree but what I said is not wrong.
There is no one who can row more with fatigued arms than with fresh arms. Find me this person and Ill eat my words. Im not talking about two different people comparing their rowing numbers to each other.
“Big weight” is obviously subjective. My point was an objective one about the guaranteed rowing strength drop off that occurs after training biceps and forearms (indirectly even). I thought this point was clearer than it apparently was, sorry.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[some may] never be able to row big weight if [their] biceps are tired.
[/quote]
Disagree as written. Fixed.[/quote]
You can disagree but what I said is not wrong.
There is no one who can row more with fatigued arms than with fresh arms. Find me this person and Ill eat my words. Im not talking about two different people comparing their rowing numbers to each other.
“Big weight” is obviously subjective. My point was an objective one about the guaranteed rowing strength drop off that occurs after training biceps and forearms (indirectly even). I thought this point was clearer than it apparently was, sorry. [/quote]
I understand what you’re saying (and I’m not saying you’re flat out wrong), but I don’t think it’s wholly relevant in the case of the OP, that’s all I’m saying.
I’m not convinced that using (relative) ‘big weight’ is even warranted or recommended in this case.
Sounds all the world (from his description of what someone told him) that he’s either doing them wrong (bad form) or has a weak MMC.
I’m not convinced anyone rowing “big weight” is likely to be using ‘too much arm’.
OP… Drop the weight and focus on really feeling the target muscle.
X2 on what BONEZ and Austin said.
OP your entire thought process is wrong in regards to working your biceps first, especially since you can’t recruit your back on the movement. You’re assuming that since your arms are fatigued your back will take over but thats not how it works. If you’re using “too much arm” then fatiguing your arms will only cause you to lift less weight. You pre exhaust the muscle you have the most difficulty feeling, in this case it’s your back.
In regards to stretching Mr. Pop is a strong advocate of stretching the muscle and i must say there’s a lot of merit in doing so. He gave an entire explanation which i choose not to to get into but basically the greater the stretch the greater the contraction. So at the bottom position of the row make sure you stretch your lats while maintaining a slight bend in your elbows.
Grip and everything else has pretty much been covered in this thread.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[some may] never be able to row big weight if [their] biceps are tired.
[/quote]
Disagree as written. Fixed.[/quote]
You can disagree but what I said is not wrong.
There is no one who can row more with fatigued arms than with fresh arms. Find me this person and Ill eat my words. Im not talking about two different people comparing their rowing numbers to each other.
“Big weight” is obviously subjective. My point was an objective one about the guaranteed rowing strength drop off that occurs after training biceps and forearms (indirectly even). I thought this point was clearer than it apparently was, sorry. [/quote]
I understand what you’re saying (and I’m not saying you’re flat out wrong), but I don’t think it’s wholly relevant in the case of the OP, that’s all I’m saying.
I’m not convinced that using (relative) ‘big weight’ is even warranted or recommended in this case.
Sounds all the world (from his description of what someone told him) that he’s either doing them wrong (bad form) or has a weak MMC.
I’m not convinced anyone rowing “big weight” is likely to be using ‘too much arm’.[/quote]
Theres a breakdown in communication here.
OP said his back and arms are lagging.
He should be in the process of getting bigger row numbers to add muscle to his back, amongst other things. He also needs to find a way to stimulate his biceps. Hence my recomendation to not train them on the same day.
I was adressing both of his specific problems in my first post. Not necessarily throwing out general principles on how to make muscles grow.
I never told him to go heavier right now. My point was that the goal is to get stronger, obviously. My advice was geared towards a method to get stronger.
I would say to warm up on them thouroughly and on your first couple wamr up sets row the weight and hold a few seconds on the peak contraction on every rep then lower, by the time you do that for a bunch of sets and get to your working weight you will be able to feel it just fine. if however you dont I aggree with bones and I would do pre exaust sets on a pullover type movement. You dont have to go all out on them just do a few sets with higher rep range 10-15 and have little rest in between, dont go to failure but this might help a lot
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
He should be in the process of getting bigger row numbers to add muscle to his back, amongst other things. He also needs to find a way to stimulate his biceps. Hence my recomendation to not train them on the same day.
I was adressing both of his specific problems in my first post. Not necessarily throwing out general principles on how to make muscles grow.
I never told him to go heavier right now. My point was that the goal is to get stronger, obviously. My advice was geared towards a method to get stronger.
[/quote]
This should have been your first post. Much clearer. 
I agree with others it sounds like the problem is technique. Doing biceps before back exercises will not fix the technique. You will just probably end up using the same bad technique with less weight. Video would help. Fix the technique with lower weight and work back up to heavier weights IMO. And I agree with Bonez do back seperate day from bi’s on it’s own. Do 6 or 7 exercises lots of volume to enhance mmc. It’s a big muscle group it can handle it.
Also just because you don’t feel a massive pump after doing your first back exercise doesn’t mean your back isn’t working.
to me this seems illogical - rows are a compound exercise using mostly “back” and biceps. if we pre=exhaust the biceps, this will mean that the BICEPS are felt more and fatigue first on the rows.
no?
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
A lot of people have trouble getting their back muscles to row the weight because they can’t get around the ‘point A to point B’ approach. What did it for me was when I started thinking of BB rows as doing a SHRUG albeit in a different spatial plane. This made me absolutely eliminate any bicep contraction.
Also ensuring that I was indeed pulling the bar into my waist with each rep, and not aiming for my chest like I see some guys do, which will always affect bicep involvement.
S[/quote]
Thanks Stu. I am in fact not bringing pulling the weight into my waist but probably closer to the top of my abs or even my sternum.
Thank you for all the feed back. It seems as though everyone is more or less giving the same advice.
So this is what I’ll be doing:
Continue doing rowing motions first.
Drop the weights and focus on holding the contractions longer…especially on warm up sets.
Pull the weight into my waist and not my chest.
Bottom line, though, I think I’ve just been pulling the weight into my belly too high and neglecting my lats.
if you still arent feeling it dong the rows first and squeezing and holding the first few sets with lighter weight. Do a superset or prefatigue. It amplifies the contraciton quality.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Hence my recomendation to not train them on the same day.[/quote]
How would you recommend rearranging my 6 day split?
I would like to keep the 2 push/leg days as they are because I’m following 5/3/1 on the main lifts with alot of success. This leaves two “pull” days.
Should I make 1 a back day and the other an arms day??
Like:
5/3/1 OHP + delt accessory
5/3/1 squat + quad accessory
Back
5/3/1 Bench + chest accessory
5/3/1 Deadlift + ham accessory
Arms
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
Getting a tan might help.
[/quote]
Nah man, I’m trying to look swole just like that vampire from Twilight…wasn’t that obvious?
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
Getting a tan might help.
[/quote]
Nah man, I’m trying to look swole just like that vampire from Twilight…wasn’t that obvious?[/quote]
the vampire wasnt swole it was the werewolf you big iiiiiiiidiot! surprised you didnt know that
lol
excellent ideas around here. Gonna try some of it. My elbows are killing my rowing work.
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
Getting a tan might help.
[/quote]
Nah man, I’m trying to look swole just like that vampire from Twilight…wasn’t that obvious?[/quote]
the vampire wasnt swole it was the werewolf you big iiiiiiiidiot! surprised you didnt know that
lol[/quote]
hence the irony of my statement…
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
Getting a tan might help.
[/quote]
Nah man, I’m trying to look swole just like that vampire from Twilight…wasn’t that obvious?[/quote]
the vampire wasnt swole it was the werewolf you big iiiiiiiidiot! surprised you didnt know that
lol[/quote]
Says 1990’s Tim Mcgraw.