Crossfit Athlete Denied Acceptance

Off Topic
41

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:
Seems to me like just following the Olympic guidelines would have made sense.[/quote]
Or the NCAA. Or any of the handful of sports governing bodies that allow transgendered athletes to compete against their current gender. Sure would seem like the precedent was set pretty solid already.

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
I wouldn’t go around saying I’m a marine, or that I’m African-American, or Asian, or Native American, or blue, or yellow, etc because I’m not. [/quote]
If you spent 8+ years living your life as a member of one of those groups, and the state you lived in allowed legal documents (birth certificate, driver’s license, etc.) to say you are part of that group, and other members of that group considered you one of them (because they saw no evidence to the contrary), you’d literally have every right to call yourself “one of them” and should certainly expect to be treated as such. And you’d be entitled to raise holy hell loud and publicly when someone speaks and/or acts against that.[/quote]

Fair enough, but what do the other female competitors have to say?

42

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:
Seems to me like just following the Olympic guidelines would have made sense.[/quote]
Or the NCAA. Or any of the handful of sports governing bodies that allow transgendered athletes to compete against their current gender. Sure would seem like the precedent was set pretty solid already.

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
I wouldn’t go around saying I’m a marine, or that I’m African-American, or Asian, or Native American, or blue, or yellow, etc because I’m not. [/quote]
If you spent 8+ years living your life as a member of one of those groups, and the state you lived in allowed legal documents (birth certificate, driver’s license, etc.) to say you are part of that group, and other members of that group considered you one of them (because they saw no evidence to the contrary), you’d literally have every right to call yourself “one of them” and should certainly expect to be treated as such. And you’d be entitled to raise holy hell loud and publicly when someone speaks and/or acts against that.[/quote]

Fair enough, but what do the other female competitors have to say?[/quote]

It doesn’t matter what they have to say because they aren’t biologists? That being said, I’d bet a hefty sum that they would overwhelmingly be in favor of her competing. I’ve met enough high level female crossfit athletes to know that, for the most part, they welcome any and all competition.

43

[quote]talc wrote:

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
It’s their sport. Their rules. Their rule-book. Rules they created for others to follow by. If you don’t like the rules then don’t compete. You do not have the “right” to compete at the crossfit games according to “your” rules. It’s by their rules until they change it. People are acting like she’s being discriminated against and the people who run crossfit are bigots. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? You know how many gay xfit athletes that compete every year without issues?

That’s like saying I want to play for the Broncos while wearing the Seattle Seahawks uniform. You don’t get to do things by your rules. IT’s THEIR event. People get so entitled these days. I swear everything has to be to every one person’s liking and personal situation or someone is a racist, discriminatory jerk or bigot. She is not barred from competing as long as she does it in the male ranks. And yes I read the second link. I think someone posted her numbers earlier and they’re not the best, she wouldn’t fair well with the guys or the gals to be honest. But it’s not all about winning for these people, it’s about competing and doing their best, which is why anyone can enter the open to compete. You hear that? EVERYONE can compete.[/quote]

Yeah she can compete as a man, but she no longer idenifies as a man. If you believe gender is a social construct, and there is no physical advantage to her being born a male, then you are assigning her a gender she no longer belongs to. If I decided to enter a contest, and they decided I was a little bitch (because sometimes I am) and made me compete in the women’s division, I’d be pretty offended.

It wasn’t about her winning, it was about acceptance and being identified as her gender. So what if she didn’t have a strong chance in eitehr division?

Sure, it’s their contest. If my gym decided on blacks/chinese/whites-only, or men/women-only, or Mensa-only, it’s illegal and/or offensive. It’s not a small douchey discrimination - it’s not like a bar where they don’t like your sneakers or baseball cap. This is a big deal for many people.

There was a recent case in Ontario, Canada about a transgender female being held in a men’s prison. Gender identification matters on different levels. It’s their prison though, their rules. The fight is to change those rules.

Would you fight if you were discriminated against? If someone called you a woman for wahtever reason, and you identified as the male gender (regardless as being born male or female), and they made you compete in women’s physique, would you be like “Well, I just want to compete…I’m not looking to win an IFBB pro card based on my past history. I guess tonight I’m a chick”?

'Cause man, I would. I’d kick ass.
[/quote]

You’re missing the point. This has nothing to do with race so please don’t bring that up. I’m tired of everyone comparing civil rights struggles to the gay movement. But I’ll leave that at that…because that’s off topic. The issue is with this organization and their rules. According to rules (which someone else posted?) you have to compete as the gender you were born as.

Until they change the rules that’s the way it is. I really don’t see any discrimination with the way their rules are set up. Again, no one is saying that she can’t compete, and people who are slamming me for being discriminatory or ignorant are really reaching at best. Like I said, you can’t join an organization and demand to compete according to your rules.

I really don’t care about who she dates, or how she orients her gender…that’s up to her and her choice. TO me this is more about an organization that has rules for athletic competition that are being attacked even though no racial, bigotry or discriminatory predetermination exists. In fact, crossfit has always supported the LBGT community, and for people to spin this into them being a “hate” organization is sad.

44

Looks like a girl to me
everyjoe.com/2014/03/06/sports/chloie-jonnson-photos-nude-transgender-crossfit-lawsuit/#5

45

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]talc wrote:
Sure, it’s their contest. If my gym decided on blacks/chinese/whites-only, or men/women-only, or Mensa-only, it’s illegal and/or offensive. It’s not a small douchey discrimination - it’s not like a bar where they don’t like your sneakers or baseball cap. This is a big deal for many people.
[/quote]

Yep, too bad people here don’t look at facts[/quote]

I’ve seen the facts. I’ve read the articles in the OP. I still believe Crossfit set up the rules without any discrimination or bigot ideology. To me it’s up to the organization to review THEIR rules and see if they need to be changed. Personally it really doesn’t matter to me either way. If they change their rules and she can compete as she desires, so be it, good for her. BUT, if they decide to keep the rules the way they are I don’t think it makes them bigots or discriminatory. Transgender people are still born physiologically as either males or females. They are just asking you to compete as how you were born. Despite gender reassignment surgery and hormones, some Transgender people still retain some male or female characteristics. Some more than others, everyone is different and not everyone’s chemistry is exactly the same. This is why I believe Xfit just rather have everyone compete as they were born. You don’t think some people would use this to their advantage? You think that all Transgender people would be completely honest and stay on their hormones and not use what little genetic advantage they have left to win either championship? Right. Because athletes never cheat in sports. Also, hormones complicate things…which is why I applaud the UFC for getting rid of TRT. Do some people need it? Yes. But to monitor if someone is taking the right amount and to determine if the hormones are giving someone an advantage is a sticky situation. I can completely understand why an organization would not want to deal with that. What if the situation was reversed? What if a FtM wanted to compete? On all the test He would be on can you say it wouldn’t give him an advantage? Maybe, but then again maybe not. But how will people respond to my post? By calling me ignorant, a bigot and a champion of discrimination. Personally, I think there is a type of hate in that of itself, calling people racist or hateful when it is truly undeserved.

46

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:

That’s like saying I want to play for the Broncos while wearing the Seattle Seahawks uniform.[/quote]

uhhh what?[/quote]

Probably not the best analogy, but it’s real simple. I was using it as an example for wanting to compete and be apart of an organization, but by your rules.

47

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:

[quote]talc wrote:

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
[/quote]

[/quote]

Until they change the rules that’s the way it is. [/quote]

True. But people saying the rules are discriminatory, because they are basing their argument relating male/female anatomy to male/female gender whereas gender theory is leaning more towards it being a social construct as opposed to being biological. They point out that she no longer has the biological advantages of a man over a woman, and have medical evidence to say so. Olympics and NCAA (apparently, have not fact checked) account for the biological difference by demanding a certain amount of time to have passed while on reassignment to negate the natural born advantages.

As I mentioned, that’s IF you subscribe to “gender is a social construct”. You don’t seem to, which is fine. I was not accusing you, FrozenNinja, of discriminating, or even being “ignorant/bigoted”. I was attacking the argument.

Those who believe in the social construct thing, they view it as discrimination and the rule should be changed, and view it as a social justice issue. Maybe it’s not on the same level as thousands of years of racial discrimination, but it’s an issue.

Now, there if you reduce it to the idea that she has physical advantages because she was born a man, they’ve shown evidence to disprove that for her. On the otherhand, if it was FtM transgender, and he went on hormone therapy to be a man, is that a concern? Should he compete as a woman as he was born a woman? Because I imagine he would fail any drug test for testosterone. It’s harder to judge in that theoretical scenario.

48

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]talc wrote:
Sure, it’s their contest. If my gym decided on blacks/chinese/whites-only, or men/women-only, or Mensa-only, it’s illegal and/or offensive. It’s not a small douchey discrimination - it’s not like a bar where they don’t like your sneakers or baseball cap. This is a big deal for many people.
[/quote]

Yep, too bad people here don’t look at facts[/quote]

I’ve seen the facts. I’ve read the articles in the OP. I still believe Crossfit set up the rules without any discrimination or bigot ideology. To me it’s up to the organization to review THEIR rules and see if they need to be changed. Personally it really doesn’t matter to me either way. If they change their rules and she can compete as she desires, so be it, good for her. BUT, if they decide to keep the rules the way they are I don’t think it makes them bigots or discriminatory. Transgender people are still born physiologically as either males or females. They are just asking you to compete as how you were born. Despite gender reassignment surgery and hormones, some Transgender people still retain some male or female characteristics. Some more than others, everyone is different and not everyone’s chemistry is exactly the same. This is why I believe Xfit just rather have everyone compete as they were born. You don’t think some people would use this to their advantage? You think that all Transgender people would be completely honest and stay on their hormones and not use what little genetic advantage they have left to win either championship? Right. Because athletes never cheat in sports. Also, hormones complicate things…which is why I applaud the UFC for getting rid of TRT. Do some people need it? Yes. But to monitor if someone is taking the right amount and to determine if the hormones are giving someone an advantage is a sticky situation. I can completely understand why an organization would not want to deal with that. What if the situation was reversed? What if a FtM wanted to compete? On all the test He would be on can you say it wouldn’t give him an advantage? Maybe, but then again maybe not. But how will people respond to my post? By calling me ignorant, a bigot and a champion of discrimination. Personally, I think there is a type of hate in that of itself, calling people racist or hateful when it is truly undeserved.[/quote]

Heh - you replied while I was typing and we came up with nearly the same scenario.

It’s true, catching cheating would be tricky. But it’s always tricky, which for some people, make decisions to compete naturally or at all harder too. Different discussion there though

49

[quote]talc wrote:

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:

[quote]talc wrote:

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
[/quote]

[/quote]

Until they change the rules that’s the way it is. [/quote]

True. But people saying the rules are discriminatory, because they are basing their argument relating male/female anatomy to male/female gender whereas gender theory is leaning more towards it being a social construct as opposed to being biological. They point out that she no longer has the biological advantages of a man over a woman, and have medical evidence to say so. Olympics and NCAA (apparently, have not fact checked) account for the biological difference by demanding a certain amount of time to have passed while on reassignment to negate the natural born advantages.

As I mentioned, that’s IF you subscribe to “gender is a social construct”. You don’t seem to, which is fine. I was not accusing you, FrozenNinja, of discriminating, or even being “ignorant/bigoted”. I was attacking the argument.

Those who believe in the social construct thing, they view it as discrimination and the rule should be changed, and view it as a social justice issue. Maybe it’s not on the same level as thousands of years of racial discrimination, but it’s an issue.

Now, there if you reduce it to the idea that she has physical advantages because she was born a man, they’ve shown evidence to disprove that for her. On the otherhand, if it was FtM transgender, and he went on hormone therapy to be a man, is that a concern? Should he compete as a woman as he was born a woman? Because I imagine he would fail any drug test for testosterone. It’s harder to judge in that theoretical scenario. [/quote]
She has an advantage, the black people have higher bone density is bunk because they were born with that advantage. If she was a male to adulthood she has advantages in musculature and bone structure, pain tolerance etc… the olympic committee takes these case by case as well. Then there is the issue of testosterone imprinting, nothing can change that after a kid is exposed to testosterone.

50

[quote]talc wrote:

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]talc wrote:
Sure, it’s their contest. If my gym decided on blacks/chinese/whites-only, or men/women-only, or Mensa-only, it’s illegal and/or offensive. It’s not a small douchey discrimination - it’s not like a bar where they don’t like your sneakers or baseball cap. This is a big deal for many people.
[/quote]

Yep, too bad people here don’t look at facts[/quote]

I’ve seen the facts. I’ve read the articles in the OP. I still believe Crossfit set up the rules without any discrimination or bigot ideology. To me it’s up to the organization to review THEIR rules and see if they need to be changed. Personally it really doesn’t matter to me either way. If they change their rules and she can compete as she desires, so be it, good for her. BUT, if they decide to keep the rules the way they are I don’t think it makes them bigots or discriminatory. Transgender people are still born physiologically as either males or females. They are just asking you to compete as how you were born. Despite gender reassignment surgery and hormones, some Transgender people still retain some male or female characteristics. Some more than others, everyone is different and not everyone’s chemistry is exactly the same. This is why I believe Xfit just rather have everyone compete as they were born. You don’t think some people would use this to their advantage? You think that all Transgender people would be completely honest and stay on their hormones and not use what little genetic advantage they have left to win either championship? Right. Because athletes never cheat in sports. Also, hormones complicate things…which is why I applaud the UFC for getting rid of TRT. Do some people need it? Yes. But to monitor if someone is taking the right amount and to determine if the hormones are giving someone an advantage is a sticky situation. I can completely understand why an organization would not want to deal with that. What if the situation was reversed? What if a FtM wanted to compete? On all the test He would be on can you say it wouldn’t give him an advantage? Maybe, but then again maybe not. But how will people respond to my post? By calling me ignorant, a bigot and a champion of discrimination. Personally, I think there is a type of hate in that of itself, calling people racist or hateful when it is truly undeserved.[/quote]

Heh - you replied while I was typing and we came up with nearly the same scenario.

It’s true, catching cheating would be tricky. But it’s always tricky, which for some people, make decisions to compete naturally or at all harder too. Different discussion there though
[/quote]

Finally. Someone I can talk to.

51

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]talc wrote:
Sure, it’s their contest. If my gym decided on blacks/chinese/whites-only, or men/women-only, or Mensa-only, it’s illegal and/or offensive. It’s not a small douchey discrimination - it’s not like a bar where they don’t like your sneakers or baseball cap. This is a big deal for many people.
[/quote]

Yep, too bad people here don’t look at facts[/quote]

I’ve seen the facts. I’ve read the articles in the OP. I still believe Crossfit set up the rules without any discrimination or bigot ideology. To me it’s up to the organization to review THEIR rules and see if they need to be changed. Personally it really doesn’t matter to me either way. If they change their rules and she can compete as she desires, so be it, good for her. BUT, if they decide to keep the rules the way they are I don’t think it makes them bigots or discriminatory. Transgender people are still born physiologically as either males or females. They are just asking you to compete as how you were born. Despite gender reassignment surgery and hormones, some Transgender people still retain some male or female characteristics. Some more than others, everyone is different and not everyone’s chemistry is exactly the same. This is why I believe Xfit just rather have everyone compete as they were born. You don’t think some people would use this to their advantage? You think that all Transgender people would be completely honest and stay on their hormones and not use what little genetic advantage they have left to win either championship? Right. Because athletes never cheat in sports. Also, hormones complicate things…which is why I applaud the UFC for getting rid of TRT. Do some people need it? Yes. But to monitor if someone is taking the right amount and to determine if the hormones are giving someone an advantage is a sticky situation. I can completely understand why an organization would not want to deal with that. What if the situation was reversed? What if a FtM wanted to compete? On all the test He would be on can you say it wouldn’t give him an advantage? Maybe, but then again maybe not. But how will people respond to my post? By calling me ignorant, a bigot and a champion of discrimination. Personally, I think there is a type of hate in that of itself, calling people racist or hateful when it is truly undeserved.[/quote]

Based on that you obviously have not read the post, or you have not not understood a single thing/

52

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]talc wrote:
Sure, it’s their contest. If my gym decided on blacks/chinese/whites-only, or men/women-only, or Mensa-only, it’s illegal and/or offensive. It’s not a small douchey discrimination - it’s not like a bar where they don’t like your sneakers or baseball cap. This is a big deal for many people.
[/quote]

Yep, too bad people here don’t look at facts[/quote]

I’ve seen the facts. I’ve read the articles in the OP. I still believe Crossfit set up the rules without any discrimination or bigot ideology. To me it’s up to the organization to review THEIR rules and see if they need to be changed. Personally it really doesn’t matter to me either way. If they change their rules and she can compete as she desires, so be it, good for her. BUT, if they decide to keep the rules the way they are I don’t think it makes them bigots or discriminatory. Transgender people are still born physiologically as either males or females. They are just asking you to compete as how you were born. Despite gender reassignment surgery and hormones, some Transgender people still retain some male or female characteristics. Some more than others, everyone is different and not everyone’s chemistry is exactly the same. This is why I believe Xfit just rather have everyone compete as they were born. You don’t think some people would use this to their advantage? You think that all Transgender people would be completely honest and stay on their hormones and not use what little genetic advantage they have left to win either championship? Right. Because athletes never cheat in sports. Also, hormones complicate things…which is why I applaud the UFC for getting rid of TRT. Do some people need it? Yes. But to monitor if someone is taking the right amount and to determine if the hormones are giving someone an advantage is a sticky situation. I can completely understand why an organization would not want to deal with that. What if the situation was reversed? What if a FtM wanted to compete? On all the test He would be on can you say it wouldn’t give him an advantage? Maybe, but then again maybe not. But how will people respond to my post? By calling me ignorant, a bigot and a champion of discrimination. Personally, I think there is a type of hate in that of itself, calling people racist or hateful when it is truly undeserved.[/quote]

Based on that you obviously have not read the post, or you have not not understood a single thing/[/quote]

You’ve posted links, but you haven’t added any content yourself. Are you trying to make an argument, or are you just presenting facts about the argument others have made? I’ve read everything you’ve posted and linked to, and everything frozen ninja has posted, and it seems to me that he’s perfectly aware of the content you posted. I don’t think he’s arguing from a point of ignorance, just a different position. Your point of view, if I’m not mistaken, is that Johnson should be allowed to compete with the women (which I agree with). Frozen Ninja’s position is that Crossfit is entitled to enforce whatever competitive rules they wish to enforce within the context of their own competition, and that their reasons for taking the stance they have are fairly simple. In that sense, I also agree with Ninja. I don’t believe they have a moral obligation to change their rules, although I’m sure they’re exploring that possibility.

Is that a fair understanding of what’s going on here?

53

Go tell David Reimer that gender is just a social construct

54

[quote]WWEAttitude wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:
So competing in CF is now a human right. [/quote]

No but being free from being discriminated against on the basis of gender is.

Try to keep up will ya? Herp derp.[/quote]

It speaks. Don’t you mean ‘being free from discrimination on the basis of transgender’? Not a human right.

55

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Seriously. I’m kind of surprised and disheartened by the ignorance of some of the comments. Not necessarily on this site, but on pretty much every other site where the story’s being “discussed.”[/quote]
The ignorance is not limited to one side of the discussion, either. Whether you’re being ignorant (willfully or otherwise) of the process involved in transitioning (isn’t that what they call it?) and the effects it has on the body and using that to fuel your cries of “born a man always a man”, or you’re ignoring the responsibility Crossfit feels to protect the integrity of their competition (though one could argue their PED policy is a contradiction of this, but I digress) and the right they have to run their competition as they see fit, failing to look deeper into the situation serves no-one. The worst I saw was someone on another site who was utterly convinced that it shouldn’t be an issue because women are stronger pound-for-pound than men (something about how men are only stronger because testosterone makes them bigger). I nearly lost my shit.

All that said, my initial gut feel was to side with Crossfit’s decision, though the stuff linked in the OP and some things I’ve read elsewhere have given me much to think about. I freely admit I don’t know enough about the science behind it to have an informed opinion (and what I’ve read so far hasn’t changed that) and I don’t know what the right, or best, answer is here. I do think a $2.5M lawsuit is a bit much, but what do I know.

56

[quote]magick wrote:
There was a transgender woman’s (male to woman) youtube page that I stumbled into a while back. What fascinated me was the fact that this woman seemed to be a BBer in her youth (had muscle mass that would probably get a “wow, nice!” from many people here to be sure).

She made a video of her transition through the use of hormone replacement therapy and the like. By the end of it (roughly a year and half of hormone-replacement therapy, I think), she was virtually unrecognizable. There was absolutely NOTHING to indicate that she was a man.

She has since gotten rid of her youtube page, so I can’t link it. That being said, go look up people who did hormone replacement therapy on youtube or online. Some of the changes are… impossible to believe really.

I used to think that letting transgender people perform in sports was unfair. After I saw those, I’m not sure anymore.[/quote]
Is this who you’re thinking of: Refined Physique Trannysformation - Off Topic - Forums - T Nation

57

I don’t buy that bone and joint development reverts to female levels after it’s grown. It’s also not sufficient that transgender people generally fall to identified gender performance levels after a year of hormones. You’d have to show that they personally wouldn’t be better if they’d always had female hormones. which is virtually impossible. but, if you believe He/She should compete, you need to be in favor of doing away with gender classes all together. If the “gender” divide is really all about hormone levels, then the class breakdown should be by hormone levels, not genes. It’s no less fair to make a guy with naturally low test and a small frame compete against one with naturally high test and a large frame than to make He/she compete against men.

58

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I don’t buy that bone and joint development reverts to female levels after it’s grown. It’s also not sufficient that transgender people generally fall to identified gender performance levels after a year of hormones. You’d have to show that they personally wouldn’t be better if they’d always had female hormones. which is virtually impossible. but, if you believe He/She should compete, you need to be in favor of doing away with gender classes all together. If the “gender” divide is really all about hormone levels, then the class breakdown should be by hormone levels, not genes. It’s no less fair to make a guy with naturally low test and a small frame compete against one with naturally high test and a large frame than to make He/she compete against men.[/quote]

Would you agree this is comparable to steroids in bodybuilding? Take a steroid user who is drug free after several years. Is it 100% fair for a lifetime natural to compete against him?

59

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I don’t buy that bone and joint development reverts to female levels after it’s grown. [/quote]

That’s dependent on the assumption it is an advantage in the first place, but yes estrogen and tesosterone exert their effects on bone density. Secondly roughly after 7 years the skeleton is completely “replaced”.

I’m going totally anecdotal

but I went from 650+ deadlift to 335 in 4 months of HRT so in another 2 years, plus surgery plus another 2 years yeh not much will be left of my old strength. Keep in mind I was roided out of my mind (I don’t plan on competing after for reasons such as the reaction to her situation).

60

The penis and vagina are pretty spectacular social constructs.