[quote]Heracles_rocks wrote:
I guess with that logic, we should create a separate category for people with different eye colors, hair colors, hell why not skin colors just to be safe. Especially skin colors, that seemed to be popular for a while.
[/quote]
Logic fail. Nice try.
Has anyone seen the top female winners of past crossfit games? I thought they were all trangenders
They lost me at a post from a physician on tmz. It is dumb to not allow her to compete. This will be bad press for them. Crossfit can suck it! I really want to see how she would do, hopefully they allow her too, if she still wants too. How did they find out anyways did she tell them? I say if she wins then it’s unfair, with the level these females compete at it may be doubtful that she would win. Cool social experiment. I don’t think competing in the event is a right but I would be pissed at being rejected.
Maybe the Crossfit made him/her/them transgender.
In regards to the Crossift HQ refusal of Chloie Jonnson’s participation at the games here are some facts that should be considered before any sensationalistic claims are made without proper knowledge.
First of all the XY vs XX argument is invalid and not sufficient. There are well documented cases of XX males and XY females. The SRY gene region is normally found on the Y chromosome but is not a reliable method of testing since not only is not always found on the Y chromosome it also triggers a gene cascade not well understood by scientists yet that in turn affect other tissues during development which may lead to altered sexually dimoprhic traits in individuals, such as brain structure.
This is evidenced by scientific literature cited
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564
and
Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation
Read More: http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09513590400018231
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09513590400018231
and
Sexual Differentiation of the Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis in Humans May Extend into Adulthood
and
A sex difference in the human brain and it’s relation to transsexuality.
http://depot.knaw.nl/821/1/15106_285_swaab.pdf
with subsequent study by Dr.Swaab et al. And Kruijver et al. showing differences in the Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis, SDN, Hypothalamus and gray matter volume underlining the importance of brain physiology.
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2005to2009/2006-atypical-gender-development.html
Also studies showing it to be irreversible
There is also an article linking hormone related genes to the atypical sexual dimoprhism. Genes CYP19 (Aromatase responsible for testosterone to estrogen conversion), AR (androgen receptor, the ?key? hole for the cell that the testosterone ?key? acts on to elicit it’s effects) and ESRB (Estrogen Receptor Beta which is responsible for the initiation of differentiating gene cascades in the fetal brain during fetal hormonal ?washes?)
here
Continuing on the topic of performance and gender testing the IOC released a statement before the 2012 summer Olympics.
“The new rules state that a panel of independent medical experts will examine through a blood test the testosterone levels in a woman and will then make a recommendation about whether she could be eligible to compete.”
The IOC and NCAA have decided after extensive research (independently) that Hormone profile is the primary determining factor for gender qualification in sport.
The Olympics requires 2 years post surgery before being allowed to compete at an INTERNATIONAL event.
The NCAA requires only one year of HRT.
This was determined the minimum to not have any unfair advantage as evidenced by the quotes from respective authorities below.
?Requiring sex reassignment surgery before allowing participation for the high school or collegiate student athlete is medically unnecessary and not linked to competitive equity IOC regulations requiring surgery for Olympic transgender athletes have been controversial and it would be unreasonable to?make this requirement for high school and college students"
ERIC VILAIN M.D., PH.D., PROFESSOR, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR GENDER-BASED BIOLOGY AND CHIEF MEDICAL GENETICS DEPARTMENT OF PEDIATRICS, UCLA
?Research suggests that androgen deprivation and cross sex hormone treatment in male-to-female transsexuals reduces muscle mass; accordingly, one year of hormone therapy is an appropriate transitional time before a male-to- female student athlete competes on a women?s team
ERIC VILAIN: M.D., PH.D., PROFESSOR, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR GENDER-BASED BIOLOGY AND CHIEF MEDICAL GENETICS DEPARTMENT OF PEDIATRICS, UCLA
?Transgender student athletes fall within the spectrum of physical traits found in athletes of their transitioned gender, allowing them to compete fairly and equitably?
DR. NICK GORTON
AMERICAN BOARD OF EMERGENCY MEDICINE, MEDICAL LEGAL CONSULTANT, TRANS HEALTH CARE
Further more, the difference need to be put into perspective when transgender women are compared with cisgender women they fall within a female range after the required time period (1 year NCAA, 2 years post-op IOC).
?Differences within the sexes are considerable and often times larger than differences between the sexes ?
DR. WALTER BOCKTING, PH.D.
PRESIDENT OF WPATH, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA MEDICAL SCHOOL
These facts are presented based on scientific literature as cited
here
Elbers JM, Asscheman H, Seidell JC, et al. Effects of sex steroid hormones on regional fat depots as assessed.
here
Australian Sports Commission. Transgender in sport. www.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2001/ascpub/women_transgender.asp (accessed 22 Mar 2005).
here
as contrasted between these two
↵ Stamm R, Veldre G, Stamm M, et al. Dependence of young female volleyballers? performance on their body build, physical abilities, and psycho-physiological properties. J Sports Med Phys Fitness 2003;43:291?9. [Medline][Web of Science]
↵ Viitasalo JT. Anthropometric and physical performance characteristics of male volleyball players. Can J Appl Sport Sci1982;7:182?8. [Medline]
and here
Pilgrim J, Martin D, Binder W. Far from the finish line: transsexualism and athletic competition. Fordham Intellectual Property Media & Entertainment Law Journal2003;13:495?549.
And the rest of these studies
↵ Federation Internationale de Volleyball. Medical regulations, ed. 2004. http://www.cev.lu/mmp/online/website/main_menu/downloads/file_28430/fivb_med_regulations_-_revised_7.pdf (accessed 23 Mar 2005).
↵ Lausanne Declaration on Doping in Sport (adopted by the World Conference on Doping in Sport). 1999. Lausanne Declaration on Doping in Sport (accessed 23 Mar 2005).
↵ Ritchie I. Sex tested, gender verified: controlling female sexuality in the age of containment. Sport History Review2003;34:80?98.
↵ Batterham AM, Birch KM. Allometry of anaerobic performance: a gender comparison. Can J Appl Physiol1996;21:48?62. [Medline]
Thomas JR, French KE. Gender differences across age in motor performance: a meta-analysis. Psychol Bull1985;98:260?82. [CrossRef][Medline][Web of Science]
↵ Shepard RJ. Exercise and training in women. Part I. Influence of gender on exercise and training responses. Can J Appl Physiol2000;25:19?34. [Medline][Web of Science]
↵ Dickinson BD, Genel M, Robinowitz CB, et al. Gender verification of female Olympic athletes. Med Sci Sports Exerc 2002;34:1539?42. [CrossRef][Medline][Web of Science]
↵ Simpson JL, Ljungqvist A, de la Chapelle A, et al. Gender verification in competitive sports. Sports Med 1993;16:305?15. [Medline][Web of Science]
↵ Introducing the, uh, ladies. JAMA1966;198:1117?18.
↵ Doig P, Lloyd-Smith R, Prior JC, et al. Position statement. Sex testing (gender verification) in Sport. Canadian Academy of Sports Medicine. 1997. http://www.casm-acms.org/PositionStatements/GendereVerifEng.pdf (accessed 23 Mar 2005).
There is no “residual” advantage and often times transgender athletes are at a disadvantage due to severely lowered testosterone levels in comparison to native females. Cisgender women have a higher testosterone than transgender women who have had reassignment surgery and the related information.
http://transathletes.org/hormones.php
Other issues that arise in the form of practicality
Crossfit profile comparison between her and CLB: http://games.crossfit.com/compare/161983/8404
Back Squat: 225 lb Clean & Jerk: 165 lb Snatch: 125 lb Deadlift: 275 lb
These numbers pale in comparison to the top competitors as well as compared to many other regional athletes.
Let her compete, if she has an unfair advantage it will be very apparent and provide evidence for these as of yet unfounded claims of unfair advantage. There are yet to be any instances of a transgender athlete dominating competitions if this were to be so likely.
Saying this will open the door for other males to ?become? transgender and dominate is very short sighted. Firstly they would have to adhere to the strict protocol involving Hormone Replacement Therapy which would remove that advantage. Secondly transgender people face a MASSIVE amount of discrimination not to mention the amount of money and physical pain of procedures that need to be endured to complete the requirements. The transgender suicide rate is 41%, forcing someone to live as the opposite identity is devastating psychologically and would also be true of someone trying to ?fake? it. (Remember once the surgery is done it is a PERMANENT change, is winning crossfit that important?)
Having larger bone structure and lowered muscle mass constitutes a disadvantage.
Furthermore there is no consistent testing policy in crossfit for PED’s. A cis-female using AA has a much larger and much more distinct advantage which could be considered universally as an “unfair advantage”.
The most shocking thing is the completely deplorable and inappropriate reply from Crossfit HQ, who seem to be the ones lacking in understanding of the human genome and biology.
[quote]roybot wrote:
So competing in CF is now a human right. [/quote]
No but being free from being discriminated against on the basis of gender is.
Try to keep up will ya? Herp derp.
There was a transgender woman’s (male to woman) youtube page that I stumbled into a while back. What fascinated me was the fact that this woman seemed to be a BBer in her youth (had muscle mass that would probably get a “wow, nice!” from many people here to be sure).
She made a video of her transition through the use of hormone replacement therapy and the like. By the end of it (roughly a year and half of hormone-replacement therapy, I think), she was virtually unrecognizable. There was absolutely NOTHING to indicate that she was a man.
She has since gotten rid of her youtube page, so I can’t link it. That being said, go look up people who did hormone replacement therapy on youtube or online. Some of the changes are… impossible to believe really.
I used to think that letting transgender people perform in sports was unfair. After I saw those, I’m not sure anymore.
Fair, eh?
Tell that to the women that have had to fight an MtF MMA fighter.
Honestly, I’m male, and as such I wouldn’t be competing against this person, but I would think it most important to get input from who their competitors would/will be.
[quote]WWEAttitude wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
So competing in CF is now a human right. [/quote]
No but being free from being discriminated against on the basis of gender is.
Try to keep up will ya? Herp derp.[/quote]
Those laws are grounded on the principle that whatever is being discriminated against is something the person is born as and cannot be changed. Does this apply to the person in question?
Also sports like CF are not really discriminating since the policy is to compete in the assigned sex (what was set at birth by definition). They don’t care what sex you currently are therefore there it can’t be discrimination based on it.
did anyone read that reaaallllyy long post?
[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:
did anyone read that reaaallllyy long post?[/quote]
Yes but I had a question about the following.
The Olympics requires 2 years post surgery before being allowed to compete at an INTERNATIONAL event.
The NCAA requires only one year of HRT.
If there is no advantage why is there a 1-2 year delay?
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:
did anyone read that reaaallllyy long post?[/quote]
Yes but I had a question about the following.
The Olympics requires 2 years post surgery before being allowed to compete at an INTERNATIONAL event.
The NCAA requires only one year of HRT.
If there is no advantage why is there a 1-2 year delay?[/quote]
Stricter standard (for the world benchmark event) and also usually because NCAA deals with younger athletes.
She is a decade HRT and 8 years post op.
It’s their sport. Their rules. Their rule-book. Rules they created for others to follow by. If you don’t like the rules then don’t compete. You do not have the “right” to compete at the crossfit games according to “your” rules. It’s by their rules until they change it. People are acting like she’s being discriminated against and the people who run crossfit are bigots. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? You know how many gay xfit athletes that compete every year without issues?
That’s like saying I want to play for the Broncos while wearing the Seattle Seahawks uniform. You don’t get to do things by your rules. IT’s THEIR event. People get so entitled these days. I swear everything has to be to every one person’s liking and personal situation or someone is a racist, discriminatory jerk or bigot. She is not barred from competing as long as she does it in the male ranks. And yes I read the second link. I think someone posted her numbers earlier and they’re not the best, she wouldn’t fair well with the guys or the gals to be honest. But it’s not all about winning for these people, it’s about competing and doing their best, which is why anyone can enter the open to compete. You hear that? EVERYONE can compete.
I read a good bit of the mega post and what not but seriously, some people are an ax walking through life looking for a stone to get ground on. She/he seems like one of them.
This thing about getting into an organization or activity and going against the grain and making it a gay thing is getting stupid. If she has competed at any level, she probably already knows how it’s going to turn out. It’s not like her performance is going to somehow skyrocket by virtue of being allowed, so really what is the meaning of this?
What ever happened to going through life with some grace and dignity? It’s like people would rather be a crying shame for a cause than actually just move on and find a way to be happy.
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
It’s their sport. Their rules. Their rule-book. Rules they created for others to follow by. If you don’t like the rules then don’t compete. You do not have the “right” to compete at the crossfit games according to “your” rules. It’s by their rules until they change it. People are acting like she’s being discriminated against and the people who run crossfit are bigots. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? You know how many gay xfit athletes that compete every year without issues?
That’s like saying I want to play for the Broncos while wearing the Seattle Seahawks uniform. You don’t get to do things by your rules. IT’s THEIR event. People get so entitled these days. I swear everything has to be to every one person’s liking and personal situation or someone is a racist, discriminatory jerk or bigot. She is not barred from competing as long as she does it in the male ranks. And yes I read the second link. I think someone posted her numbers earlier and they’re not the best, she wouldn’t fair well with the guys or the gals to be honest. But it’s not all about winning for these people, it’s about competing and doing their best, which is why anyone can enter the open to compete. You hear that? EVERYONE can compete.[/quote]
Yeah she can compete as a man, but she no longer idenifies as a man. If you believe gender is a social construct, and there is no physical advantage to her being born a male, then you are assigning her a gender she no longer belongs to. If I decided to enter a contest, and they decided I was a little bitch (because sometimes I am) and made me compete in the women’s division, I’d be pretty offended.
It wasn’t about her winning, it was about acceptance and being identified as her gender. So what if she didn’t have a strong chance in eitehr division?
Sure, it’s their contest. If my gym decided on blacks/chinese/whites-only, or men/women-only, or Mensa-only, it’s illegal and/or offensive. It’s not a small douchey discrimination - it’s not like a bar where they don’t like your sneakers or baseball cap. This is a big deal for many people.
There was a recent case in Ontario, Canada about a transgender female being held in a men’s prison. Gender identification matters on different levels. It’s their prison though, their rules. The fight is to change those rules.
Would you fight if you were discriminated against? If someone called you a woman for wahtever reason, and you identified as the male gender (regardless as being born male or female), and they made you compete in women’s physique, would you be like “Well, I just want to compete…I’m not looking to win an IFBB pro card based on my past history. I guess tonight I’m a chick”?
'Cause man, I would. I’d kick ass.
Do women identify MtF transsexuals as female?
Just cause you want to be part of a group doesn’t mean you are. It’'s not up to you to decide if you are.
I can say I’m ______ all I want, but if _______ group says “No, you’re not _______”, then it isn’t me being discriminated against.
This isn’t about discrimination.
I wouldn’t go around saying I’m a marine, or that I’m African-American, or Asian, or Native American, or blue, or yellow, etc because I’m not.
I can accept that someone felt the need to have sex reassignment surgery and that they’re a person just like anyone else, but if you’re FtM you’re male-like, or if you’re MtF, you’re female-like.
People making a scene over shit like this acts as a distraction to actual discrimination and injustice.
[quote]talc wrote:
Sure, it’s their contest. If my gym decided on blacks/chinese/whites-only, or men/women-only, or Mensa-only, it’s illegal and/or offensive. It’s not a small douchey discrimination - it’s not like a bar where they don’t like your sneakers or baseball cap. This is a big deal for many people.
[/quote]
Yep, too bad people here don’t look at facts
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
That’s like saying I want to play for the Broncos while wearing the Seattle Seahawks uniform.[/quote]
uhhh what?
[quote]DebraD wrote:
My understanding is that too much testosterone supplementation for a woman can lead to irreversible side effects. So how could a man go through puberty and not also experience those irreversible side effects?
I thought it was well understood that there are benefits and advantages to supplementing T long after the supplementation has stopped, hence the argument that favours lifetime bans for athletes who test positive.[/quote]
Probably a grey area at best, but I don’t think that situation is exactly comparable since many/most (all?) transgendered athletes are on hormone replacement specifically to get their hormones in line with their current gender. It’s also the likely reason for the one to two year period some organizations require, to ensure there is no lasting hormonal benefit.
[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:
[quote]talc wrote:
Sure, it’s their contest. If my gym decided on blacks/chinese/whites-only, or men/women-only, or Mensa-only, it’s illegal and/or offensive. It’s not a small douchey discrimination - it’s not like a bar where they don’t like your sneakers or baseball cap. This is a big deal for many people. [/quote]
Yep, too bad people here don’t look at facts[/quote]
Seriously. I’m kind of surprised and disheartened by the ignorance of some of the comments. Not necessarily on this site, but on pretty much every other site where the story’s being “discussed.”
[quote]OBoile wrote:
Seems to me like just following the Olympic guidelines would have made sense.[/quote]
Or the NCAA. Or any of the handful of sports governing bodies that allow transgendered athletes to compete against their current gender. Sure would seem like the precedent was set pretty solid already.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
I wouldn’t go around saying I’m a marine, or that I’m African-American, or Asian, or Native American, or blue, or yellow, etc because I’m not. [/quote]
If you spent 8+ years living your life as a member of one of those groups, and the state you lived in allowed legal documents (birth certificate, driver’s license, etc.) to say you are part of that group, and other members of that group considered you one of them (because they saw no evidence to the contrary), you’d literally have every right to call yourself “one of them” and should certainly expect to be treated as such. And you’d be entitled to raise holy hell loud and publicly when someone speaks and/or acts against that.