Crossfit and Westside Barbell

Training Powerlifting
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[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]lift206 wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

You can peak conditioning in 6-8 weeks max. Strength takes years to build.[/quote]
Exactly the point I tried to make earlier. Most Crossfitters don’t get that. The ones that do win competitions. Look at Matt Fraser, who just won the open and got second in the games last year. He is very new to crossfit, but was a oly lifter and a strength athlete before. [/quote]

It would be pretty funny if they threw a curve ball in the crossfit games and made people run a marathon. You’re supposed to be ready for anything right? It would be interesting to see which competitors do good enough in all ranges (including the extreme) of the strength spectrum. I would still expect the athletes that lean a bit more towards strength to win, probably MMA type athletes.

Edit: Just thought of something…maybe it’s geared more towards strength to get more sales?[/quote]
Two years ago they had a two part event that was a 2000k row and a half marathon row, 21,097m. Thats pretty insane IMO. [/quote]

I have a buddy living in NYC who was trying to get into the Navy SEALS for awhile (although I haven’t been in touch with him for a bit, so I don’t know if he’s still trying to do that or if he’s going to stick with civilian life).

He did CF for a while before shifting to his own version of it - blending Oly lifts, squatting, swim work, and at least one weekly long run - and did a couple of ultra marathons a year. The way he saw it, although he didn’t like CF’s specific approach, he thought the mixture of events plus the swim practice and competing in ultras would make him mentally tough and show on his SEAL application that he was capable of pushing himself very hard in extreme conditions (some of his ultra race reports are really harrowing stuff - he’s done 135-mile events in snow and freezing temps that took 48 hours to finish).

He did a full marathon row for the heck of it once. Took him just over three hours. He said the effort was about comparable to running a full marathon, acknowledging that the preparedness required was obviously different for running vs rowing.

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[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]lift206 wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

You can peak conditioning in 6-8 weeks max. Strength takes years to build.[/quote]
Exactly the point I tried to make earlier. Most Crossfitters don’t get that. The ones that do win competitions. Look at Matt Fraser, who just won the open and got second in the games last year. He is very new to crossfit, but was a oly lifter and a strength athlete before. [/quote]

It would be pretty funny if they threw a curve ball in the crossfit games and made people run a marathon. You’re supposed to be ready for anything right? It would be interesting to see which competitors do good enough in all ranges (including the extreme) of the strength spectrum. I would still expect the athletes that lean a bit more towards strength to win, probably MMA type athletes.

Edit: Just thought of something…maybe it’s geared more towards strength to get more sales?[/quote]
Two years ago they had a two part event that was a 2000k row and a half marathon row, 21,097m. Thats pretty insane IMO. [/quote]

I have a buddy living in NYC who was trying to get into the Navy SEALS for awhile (although I haven’t been in touch with him for a bit, so I don’t know if he’s still trying to do that or if he’s going to stick with civilian life).

He did CF for a while before shifting to his own version of it - blending Oly lifts, squatting, swim work, and at least one weekly long run - and did a couple of ultra marathons a year. The way he saw it, although he didn’t like CF’s specific approach, he thought the mixture of events plus the swim practice and competing in ultras would make him mentally tough and show on his SEAL application that he was capable of pushing himself very hard in extreme conditions (some of his ultra race reports are really harrowing stuff - he’s done 135-mile events in snow and freezing temps that took 48 hours to finish).

He did a full marathon row for the heck of it once. Took him just over three hours. He said the effort was about comparable to running a full marathon, acknowledging that the preparedness required was obviously different for running vs rowing.[/quote]

That’s an impressive feat!

I like the different modalities that crossfit uses, but I don’t like the lack of strength specificity. Before my hip really went into the crapper, I was doing a lot more endurance and conditioning stuff, but on that once per week or every other week basis. I enjoy those occasional workouts that make you mentally tough.

For instance:
Murph - 1 mile run, 100 pullups, 200 situps, 300 squats, 1 mile run
did it last June 10th 36:57

7 minutes of burpees
got 114

3 rounds of 25 kb swings #60, 25 burpees
took 9:46

Death by pullups, 1 the first minute, 2 the second, 3 the third, and so on until you fail to get your reps
completed 17 minutes. Didn’t start 18 cause I knew I wouldn’t make it.

Those are some of the ones that stand out.

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[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
I like the different modalities that crossfit uses, but I don’t like the lack of strength specificity.
[/quote]

This is my general feeling about CrossFit as well. I’ve often joked to my GF that I would love to go to a CrossFit box that did things the way I think they should, haha - which is very similar to what you’ve outlined above. 3-4 pure “strength” days per week (always including one volume squat day, one Oly volume-and-technique-work day, and a max-effort day of some kind) plus 2-3 metcons per week (done either on the off days, or as finishers on the strength days…I’m honestly not sure which I think would be better, but the answer is probably “Either could work if you were smart about it”).

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I’m having a hard time computing why you want to mix CrossFit with a method that specializes in geared powerlifting. Why don’t you look to sources of Olympic lifting? Like John Broz method for example?

25

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
I like the different modalities that crossfit uses, but I don’t like the lack of strength specificity.
[/quote]

This is my general feeling about CrossFit as well. I’ve often joked to my GF that I would love to go to a CrossFit box that did things the way I think they should, haha - which is very similar to what you’ve outlined above. 3-4 pure “strength” days per week (always including one volume squat day, one Oly volume-and-technique-work day, and a max-effort day of some kind) plus 2-3 metcons per week (done either on the off days, or as finishers on the strength days…I’m honestly not sure which I think would be better, but the answer is probably “Either could work if you were smart about it”).[/quote]

Maybe the answer is to teach people not to go all out on metcons and treat it like lifting. They can have light, med, hard intensity where they know when to push for PRs and when to maintain a minimum effort. The minimum effort would improve over time as well.

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[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

  • what is your PRIMARY goal? (Note: “being big, strong, lean, and faster than a cheetah” is not a primary goal).[/quote]

I would argue that being faster than a Cheetah IS a primary goal, because that’s very specific (though impossible).

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You might be interested in looking into the Hybrid Athlete being touted on the Juggernaut website.

"What is a Hybrid Athlete?

A hybrid athlete is a unique breed who can excel simultaneously in both strength and endurance activities. Alex Viada has revolutionized this type of concurrent training, as he has squatted and deadlifted over 700 pounds raw while also running a sub 4:30 mile and competing in ultra-marathons and triathlons. He?s refined his methods from working with hundreds of athletes in all disciplines, from strongmen who want to run half marathons, to members of the Special Forces, to the countless athletes who just want to be able to deadlift 500-600 pounds and run a 5:00 mile."

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[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
You might be interested in looking into the Hybrid Athlete being touted on the Juggernaut website.

"What is a Hybrid Athlete?

A hybrid athlete is a unique breed who can excel simultaneously in both strength and endurance activities. Alex Viada has revolutionized this type of concurrent training, as he has squatted and deadlifted over 700 pounds raw while also running a sub 4:30 mile and competing in ultra-marathons and triathlons. He?s refined his methods from working with hundreds of athletes in all disciplines, from strongmen who want to run half marathons, to members of the Special Forces, to the countless athletes who just want to be able to deadlift 500-600 pounds and run a 5:00 mile."[/quote]
I definitely don’t want to just stir the pot, as I do think that people can excel in both strength and endurance activities simultaneously, I feel that many of Alex Viada’s claims are unsubstantiated. Especially some of his running times. I do think he is an amazing athlete, but I do not believe he has run a sub 4:30 mile while being anywhere near his same weight and size for powerlifting. IF, and its a big if, he ever did hit a sub 4:30, it could have been years apart from being able to lift heavy.

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[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
You might be interested in looking into the Hybrid Athlete being touted on the Juggernaut website.

"What is a Hybrid Athlete?

A hybrid athlete is a unique breed who can excel simultaneously in both strength and endurance activities. Alex Viada has revolutionized this type of concurrent training, as he has squatted and deadlifted over 700 pounds raw while also running a sub 4:30 mile and competing in ultra-marathons and triathlons. He?s refined his methods from working with hundreds of athletes in all disciplines, from strongmen who want to run half marathons, to members of the Special Forces, to the countless athletes who just want to be able to deadlift 500-600 pounds and run a 5:00 mile."[/quote]
I definitely don’t want to just stir the pot, as I do think that people can excel in both strength and endurance activities simultaneously, I feel that many of Alex Viada’s claims are unsubstantiated. Especially some of his running times. I do think he is an amazing athlete, but I do not believe he has run a sub 4:30 mile while being anywhere near his same weight and size for powerlifting. IF, and its a big if, he ever did hit a sub 4:30, it could have been years apart from being able to lift heavy. [/quote]

You may be right, I don’t know much about Alex Viada. I just happened to see the post this morning and thought of this thread.

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Also, Juggernaut seems to know their shit and the other books they publish are by some pretty well known and established names in the industry. That doesn’t mean they’re the end all be all by any means, but I think it’s worth reading what they have to say.

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[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Also, Juggernaut seems to know their shit and the other books they publish are by some pretty well known and established names in the industry. That doesn’t mean they’re the end all be all by any means, but I think it’s worth reading what they have to say. [/quote]
I have, and feel the training philosophy is solid, I have just looked into Viada and his claims before, and most can’t be substantiated. He is strong, and fit, and well conditioned. And following a similar style of training will get people great results. But approaching elite levels in multiple conflicting genres concurrently is a stretch.

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[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
I have, and feel the training philosophy is solid, I have just looked into Viada and his claims before, and most can’t be substantiated. He is strong, and fit, and well conditioned. And following a similar style of training will get people great results. But approaching elite levels in multiple conflicting genres concurrently is a stretch. [/quote]

Much like Brian MacKenzie of CrossFit Endurance fame/infamy.

He made lots of outlandish boasts/claims…my favorites were:

  • boasting that he would finish in the top ten at Badwater (a very difficult, very hot ultramarathon), which he did not do because Badwater (justifiably) requires that the runners complete prior 100 mile races before they register, and he refused to complete the qualifying races. He did the same for Western States 100, saying that he refused to “destroy his body” by completing a qualifying race. He asked permission from race directors to skip qualifier. It was denied, of course. Made for a handy excuse for him - he spun it as the race directors wouldn’t let him enter, as though somehow he should have just been granted an exception because…why?

He then went on to try Badwater as a solo venture. He DNF’d about 40 miles into the effort, blaming it on melting shoes (which is, admittedly, a thing that happens to people who run Badwater).

  • promising a documentary about him completing a 100-miler using his prescribed CF training, which never happened because…he DNF’d the race
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Viada’s claim of a mile PR of 4:15 is more than enough to qualify for Division 1 scholarships. That’s a really really fast mile, for those unfamiliar.

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[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Also, Juggernaut seems to know their shit and the other books they publish are by some pretty well known and established names in the industry. That doesn’t mean they’re the end all be all by any means, but I think it’s worth reading what they have to say. [/quote]
I have, and feel the training philosophy is solid, I have just looked into Viada and his claims before, and most can’t be substantiated. He is strong, and fit, and well conditioned. And following a similar style of training will get people great results. But approaching elite levels in multiple conflicting genres concurrently is a stretch. [/quote]

Gotcha.

35

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
Viada’s claim of a mile PR of 4:15 is more than enough to qualify for Division 1 scholarships. That’s a really really fast mile, for those unfamiliar. [/quote]
It is a really really fast mile. Sub-5 minutes is a fast mile.

That said, a guy I ran with in high school ran a 4:13 mile as a high school sophomore, and 4:02 in college. These days he’s running ultramarathons and regularly placing first in those (e.g., a 100 miler in less than 18 hours). Granted, he was an anomaly on an already good team.

Viada’s claims seem to be stretching things a bit, but not so far as to be entirely unrealistic. On the other hand, I can’t find any info on actual races he ran, which is weird to say the least.

36

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Viada’s claims seem to be stretching things a bit, but not so far as to be entirely unrealistic. On the other hand, I can’t find any info on actual races he ran, which is weird to say the least.[/quote]

This is typical of the MacKenzie types. Many claimed feats, little in the way of actual records of them happening.

Note: I’ve never really looked into Viada, for all I know he’s the nicest guy in the world and hasn’t fabricated a thing. I do know that MacKenzie talked shit, lots of it, to distance runners for years about how he was going to lay waste to them with his super CFE methods. And yet he rarely, if ever, demonstrated his method’s superiority in competition (I think he did run a 3:43 marathon once, which is a fine accomplishment but barely would register as a sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-elite women’s time, much less make any kind of dent in a men’s race).

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Suppose I should of looked this Viada guy up before posting…

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[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
Viada’s claim of a mile PR of 4:15 is more than enough to qualify for Division 1 scholarships. That’s a really really fast mile, for those unfamiliar. [/quote]
It is a really really fast mile. Sub-5 minutes is a fast mile.

That said, a guy I ran with in high school ran a 4:13 mile as a high school sophomore, and 4:02 in college. These days he’s running ultramarathons and regularly placing first in those (e.g., a 100 miler in less than 18 hours). Granted, he was an anomaly on an already good team.

Viada’s claims seem to be stretching things a bit, but not so far as to be entirely unrealistic. On the other hand, I can’t find any info on actual races he ran, which is weird to say the least.[/quote]
FWIW, he mentioned his relatively-recent times in an AMA last year. A 4:15 mile and 7:28 mile and a half while weighing 228ish. On his FB page also last year, he mentioned entering the Umstead 100 (a 100-mile ultramarathon) weighing 233, but not finishing due to a “stress fracture at mile 30”, while pulling 600 a few days later and squatting 705 a few days after that.

Take with as many grains of salt as necessary. Those seem to be his claims.

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Well, about like this right now:

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It’s amazing how many of these outlandish claims are so similar.

Like the guy claiming he trains with someone who benches 520 raw at 210. No video evidence, no competition record. Just a guy on a forum. And there’s always some vague excuse when asked for real proof…hold this thought.

Viada’s just this mystery man, out there blasting his way through 4:15 miles on a trail near his house that he logs via GPS. But wait, he can’t do it now because he’s gotta wait until his ankle’s good to go and he’s done a few events, so just wait, the video’s really coming.

Right. Just like Brian MacKenzie’s documentary on crushing a 100 mile race by training CrossFit.

Colucci, I also have to chuckle at the “dropped out with a stress fracture at mile 30” combined with pulling 600 within a few days. Not only is he superhumanly fast and strong, but he heals like Wolverine!

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