Cressey's Impromptu 600 Deadlift

Training Powerlifting
41

[quote]Eric Cressey wrote:
alfuh wrote:
Oh that Cressey, he’s so hot right now!

I am to please.

I’m surprised to hear from you, though, Dave; I would have thought that Vinnie, Billy, and Rhodes would have eaten you by now…[/quote]

Haha no, I’m still going strong (strong being … relative ;P). As long as my shoulders stop giving me grief. Handsome Carl decided to do the meet in Sept too so now we have Big Brent and Rob heading up there with us.

Some guys from the bench crew took notice of me on Friday and told me I looked cute (they were right of course, I’m dashing) and they wanted to break me in after their session … so I did a double take to make sure I didn’t end up in prison and then made sure and finished up my accessory work before they were done lifting.

And actually Billy has been the nicest guy to me. He really has helped me with my box squats and gives me advice whenever I need it (every set or so …)

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[quote]Jumanji wrote:
Chuck~

I started my career at the college level as a coach, and S&C guy. Then moved back to the HS kids.

Here is the statement I get the most:

‘Each weak we stay in the game because we are stronger than the other team 90% of the time, but we lose because we are always slower.’

Big Squats, muscled Olympic lifts, no speed.

Hmmmm.

I guess my niche is poorly trained athletes. So in HS alone, out of 6.7 million athletes in 2005, I guess I am only targeting 6.6 million kids or so…

as a pretty accurate rough estimate.

I add in some low level college kids during the summers just for some variation.

I work with the kids who have genetic traits extremely dissimilar to FSU or Miamai recruited athletes, yet do the FSU or Miami lifting program.

No spring in their step, no fast twitch dominance.

I don’t blame coaches. They all have technical and tactical knowledge to be experts in, and their only resource are S&C coaches who have little to no time to keep up with the science…

The basic fact is the idea that the S&C program did not MAKE that athlete. The athlete was recruited as a 4.4 kid… or he wouldn’t have been recruited.

Now, take that kid and throw him on any program here… seriously, pick one. CT, Chad, Poliquin, whatever… They are all awesome… makes no difference whatever. The kid just needs more muscle and strength.

The key is how do you bring up the kid who has a huge explosive strength deficit, and who has no spring…

I started by looking at myself and the training my coach had me do… I was a made athlete… MADE.

Look at gymnastics or ballet for spring development. Look at the principles behind the O-Lifters for Max Power development. Look at PL’ers for the underlying MaxStrength that is necessary.

Now look at your kids and see what they need the most to bring up their sporting mastery… so their body has the optimal output for their sport and position.

Easy Schmeezy.

J[/quote]

I like most of what you have to say, and would like to start implementing some of the concepts. Sorry for the 20 questions…

Where would you start, say, with a high school football team? If you have 80 football guys to train in two hours a day, how do you divide up? Do you identify guys that are lacking in a specific physical trait during the season and tailor their training appropriately (I assume)?

What markers do you use? For instance, I have a JV left tackle that is fairly strong for his age group. So by most real standards of strength, he’s not very strong. His ESD is pretty bad however.

In Siff and Zatsiorski they are talking about throwers who don’t gain much going from a 550 lb bench press to a 600 pound bench press because of their ESD. I don’t have any kids with elite strength levels, though, so it’s a little less clear to me. How do you decide when a kid has “enough” of a given characteristic? We have been doing rough tailoring based on the position coaches telling me “x kid is slow off the ball” (or MUCH more frequently “x kid needs to gain weight without getting slower”).

I guess what I’m getting at is: How do you guys integrate your system with large groups and a limited coaching staff? What markers do you use to divide up the kids?

(We use concurrent programming, varying intensity a la Charlie Francis, but do have concentrated loading blocks where we emphasize one physical trait or another with our stength and plyos, speed, and agility work. I would like to get into more personalized training but would be interested in hearing what ‘dividing lines’ you use with non-elite athletes, and how that would work with 80 kids in the small time frame that I can get with them.)

Thanks for your time!

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Chuck~

Well there is the rub, huh?

Kinda why I went fully to the training side, besides for the fact that the highs are never as low as the lows… even when I was running the #2 Offense in NC behind Independence… the highs never matched the heartache…

Plus, even with a good fundraising program at the HS, I make 20X running speed camps as I ever did as an OC… and that is only during the 10 weeks over the summer…

So I quit trying to do the impossible, and instead made gains under conditions that were possible.

The kid who won’t eat correctly probably isn’t going to pay $15-20 per training session with me… in a group setting. And, when I talk with the parents of those kids who aren’t eating, the parents give the kid a good kick in the nuggets for wasting their money…

The weight gain just comes from increasing clean calories… I don’t know what the deal is these days, but I had veins on my veins, and I don’t have a single kid this summer who I would call really vascular… what is going on?

Ok, so the needs of your linemen vary considerably from your skill positions…

But, At times, a skill guy must train like a lineman, and a lineman must train like a skill guy… so here is what we would do…

We classify each kid as needing either strength work or plyo / rate work…

Position didn’t matter. We took care of the level of differences during the session with different height boxes, etc.

So, if you needed strength work, you went in the weightroom first, and did an extended core lifts session, then would move onto AUX Lifts. During this time, rate needy guys would be on the field doing plyos, and more acceleration work.

As the Strength Needy guys moved off of the Core lifts, we would cycle in our Frosh who had been doing BW work, and body position / movement training. Tons of core stability, and learning about positive shin angle, proper COG relationships, proper core stabilization, etc. The frosh would come in and practice one Core Lift to perfection… light weight, only 1 exercise… few reps not to failure.

Then the Rate Needy Guys would come in, and the Strength Needy guys would leave for outside. The time allotted was much less for this block, so the Rate Needy guys might do one less tier (we used Joe Kenn’s basic Outline back in NC), and the Strength Needy guys would do fewer plyos, and fewer accelerations.

The frosh would also go oout to the field at this point, or we would let them do beach lifts depending on the day.

We lifted MWF. Friday was often a strongman type day with competition involved, and usually a T-Shirt or prize of some sort.

On T and R, we would do sport specific drills, working mostly technique. Guards pulling while maintaing a positive shin angle during their first step… DB’s understanding how to play zone, WR’s catching tons of balls…

Easy on the legs, but with perfect form.

Here is the kicker, we did all lifting on the clock. Coach blew a whistle to begin each set, etc…

NO MESSING AROUND… at all…

Oh, and here is the best piece of advice I can give you… above all others if you are in HS: Control the lifting classes, and make it mandatory that all kids in weightlifting do a makeover type challenge with themselves each semester. So girls do a weigthloss, or physique transform… and guys do a lift-a-thon…

each kid HAS TO get sponsors to support their goals. 7 periods, 30 kids per period, $15+ per kid… pays for alot of ELITEfts equipment in a big hurry… or assistant coaches…

If you don’t control the weightroom, IMO, you will never really have a program…

Oh, and one other thing: If the kid didn’t show on lift day, they didn’t go on skill day… period.

J

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Jumanji,

Great stuff, I appreciate that. I’ll print that out. I’m going to try to implement some of the stuff I have been reading out of you and the DB Hammer group in the off-season after my next meet. If I can figure out the system well enough to get it to work on my favorite guinea pig (me), I’m going to work the concepts into our off-season starting this spring. I have a good reliable playbook for developing strength and muscle mass, and conditioning I found is not really hard to do, but as far as the other end of the curve I have a lot to learn, especially as I come from a very rate-dominant gene pool.

I don’t control the weight room however. I coach in my free time, as I own a business during the rest of the day. I have the football coaches that are onboard with me but the political bullshit in schools is something else. I just keep plugging away because making a difference in kids’ lives is why I coach, even if the basketball coach tells their kids that lifting will “ruin your shot”…

Thanks again.

Chuck

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Damn, now I want to go deadlift.

Impressive, man.

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Chuck~

Believe me, if you had smaller numbers, I prefer more of what DB does… in fact, even in larger groups, I love the idea of small strength circuits…

But in many places it just isn’t possible…

Oh, and I LOVE Basketball coaches. Often come from a pool of very very intelligent basketball players… generally right on top of the best for their kids…

Good LORD.

I probably don’t have to tell you that a rate and reactive dominant kid (MANY BBALL players) will explode under a strength regime.

J

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Let me project here for a second to ascertain the ultimate goal of the plyo/Evo/Inno philosophy…is to essentially progress the athlete measureably in quickness, vertical and speed. In personal terms, I’d love, eventually, to progress my son from a current 4.83, 23 vert and 4.65 shuttle at age 14 (fr) to say, 4.45, 36 vert, 4.0 shuttle with maybe a 315 bench and a 450 squat at 6’0", 185 lb senior.

Geez, I’m projecting here but I think its doable IF he works. BUT, aside from Adam A, I don’t know if any athlete using this system has made startling gains. I’m sure there are a couple and legions of others making decent gains. However, when I visited the Cowboy practice in Oxnard,CA last week, and watched a few pro games on TV, at the skill positions, there were 95% ‘innately gifted’ or BORN, rate dominant athletes. Just being devil’s advocate here.

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[quote]Scipio wrote:
BUT, aside from Adam A, I don’t know if any athlete using this system has made startling gains. [/quote]

Vika Rybalko is a world-class long jumper that trains under Dan Fitcher (and maybe Chris Korfist as well) from Inno-Sport. I’m not sure if she’s made “startling gains”, but if I recall correctly from what they’ve said over at the forum, she never quite reached her potential during her college career and was hampered by injuries and overtraining.

I think being a truly ELITE athlete takes a very special body type and genetic structure. JackM over at the DB forum once said to compare a greyhound to a bulldog. The greyhound is always going to be faster. Randy Moss is a greyhound, the 5’8" chubby kid who struggles on JV football is a bulldog.

Now, take the greyhound and give him some proper training…

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Let me say it one time, and please understand what is being said:

Team sport speed is NOT elite speed currently.

Football and basketball are getting closest, but the secondary sports in America (and those who play them globally) do NOT require elite speed.

The reason Scipio sees only the genetically gifted kids on the field is a multi-faceted reason:

A) Soft assed suburban white kids do not NEED sports, but an African American kid from Central Florida who has less than no money, is very poorly educated, has no AC at home, NEEDS football, needs the air conditioned weightroom, is defined by football (or bball). So these kids train. Wonder why the US sucks at soccer? Because we have soft people playing the game, soft mentally, definitely soft physically. See any Nate Robinsons, Allen Iverson, Deion Sanders, or Barry Sanders in our secondary sports?

B) In the US we do not know how to MAKE athletes. In the eastern block countries, they have ruddy faced white guys running 10.1 - 10.4 100m regularly. This type of speed makes them a laughing stock in Track & Field, so we never hear of them… they never make the finals, they are a joke in T&F. But, they are faster than what is necessary for football, for basketball, or any other team sport.

Our country has 280mil people in it, and basically unlimited funds. Where are all our 10.2 100m white guys? I can think of only a couple. In our country we should have thousands.

Why do we not? Socioeconomics, and a totally different type of person who occupies our sports training profession. In the eastern block countries, the programs are designed by some of the most brilliant minds. In the US, that isn’t really the case. I know of very few S&C guys who chose this profession over being neurosurgeons… so we read Eastern Bloc studies to find the truth.

And again, most kids who actually do have a structured program in HS get some watered down program from UKentucky’s or LSU’s football program.

Does this NOT make sense to anybody else? Do 99% of HS kids have the same training needs as a reactive dominant, fast twitch kid who currently plays for FSU?

But, this is the question never addressed in America unless you are in the Olympic Development type programs.

Now, I realize that team sports require many more abilities than linear speed… obviously.

But, to be successful in team sports, say to get a scholarship, you do NOT have elite speed.

I know a guy who plays Big East soccer currently who also runs track. He is by far and away the fastest guy on the field every time he plays. In track he runs around a 10.7 electronic.

Team speed and genetic track speed are NOT the same… not even close.

Plus, changing an athlete’s reactive ability is much like getting them to have great relative strength. It is progressive, and requires a few years of training. Please name for me a kid who has been doing a progressive plyo program for 3 years to coincide with their weightroom work.

Scipio, there is hope for your son. You just need to compete with the 1,000,000,000 other things he will want to do other than train. And, you will have to look outside the norm for your training methods. Unfortunately it requires more than benching and squatting.

J

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Jumanji, being a young football player i love all the things you’ve written. You are very well written and sound very knowledgeable.

I played UNiversity football for one year but was a victim to the numbers game. I still play in a community based league which is a lower quality game. I was wondering how much you use the agility ladder in your training. I personally find that as important as explosiveness and plyos are, that footspeed can make a very big difference.

I play DB so making efficient use of my feet is very important. Just wanted to hear your thoughts and how much you use it for your athletes…

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TC had a writers’ contest and this thread, to me anyway, epitomizes what can be learned from a thoughtful forum. I got Cressey’s MM DVD and read here a few times per week. I thought I was well informed but have learned many things here, some of which an old guy can still use.
My wife drove my daughter to Baylor last week and passed through Midland and Odessa and said, “no wonder those towns take football seriously, there’s nothing there”. Jumanji, your central FL comments are well-taken and lend perspective to the situation. My questions are answered; rate/reactive training can measureably improve IF you do the program for years not months. Good points all; thank you. Incidentally, I want Cressey to chime in on this; sounds like plyos need to be inserted into team sports MUCH more but that ‘Balance’ is what the athlete should aim for. Thanks J.

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Eric~

Where do you lie on all of this. I think your feelings on relative strength are similar to mine: If you are weak, you have no leg to stand on in your argument about genetics (pun intended).

But, where do you stand on the training of the other physical qualities, such as reactivity?

I can tell everyone this: I am Strength and Mag dominant… not rate or spring dominant. If you have read Korfist’s latest article, I am one of the few people who can bound and broad jump MUCH further than my speed would dictate. I have always been as such… explosive, not speedy. This is possibly why my perspective is what it is… all of my spring was made. Even as a 10’6"+ broad jumper in college, I was only a mid-high 10s 100m guy… very slow when you look at Dick’s hip extension / bounding chart.

Love to hear your stance Eric… from a guy who is legitimately very strong… relative or otherwise.

J

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[quote]MichaelJohnson wrote:
Absolute crap form on that deadlift. Is this the way you teach your athletes to deadlift? Where are the legs? Or is this a new kind of lift-“the backlift”.
[/quote]

This dude must be joking or else he has never seen a deadlift. If Eric had started with his hips lower to get more leg drive, it would have been wasted movement.

Eric, where is your bodyweight sitting these days. You mentioned the 181’s…does that mean you’re pushing 190+? :slight_smile:

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Great info here. Sorry I’m a bit late returning to the party; life’s been hectic.

Definitely some excellent posts, Jumanji. I agree with you 100% on your comments on reactive ability being a necessary quality and, just as importantly, a quality that takes quite a bit of time to develop. With that said, it’s not common to get athletes for the long haul at a young age, so in “limited time with them,” we often have to choose what will give them the most bang for their buck. If I have a year with a young athlete, my focus (in this order) is going to be:

  1. Structural balance/efficiency
  2. Appropriate motor control/mobility/stability
  3. Maximal Strength (you don’t need near-maximal loading initially to get it)
  4. Favorable landing mechanics
  5. Short-response reactive work

Granted, I’m training several of these qualities simultaneously, so “prioritization” doesn’t necessarily mean “exclusion.” Some athletes develop more quickly, but this is my bread and butter, so to speak, as I get the ball rolling. If I’ve only got a year, I know that these things are going to be my fastest in-roads to success. Some might fault me for putting maximal strength ahead of reactive ability, but the window of adaptation and carryover to a variety of facets of performance is just too profound; it’s the base of the pyramid. Assuming one can only be proficient in one quality, reactive athletes get hurt a lot more than strong athletes, in my experience (especially since the reactive guys tend to be woefully underweight).

Admittedly, I am spoiled in that I get a lot of very reactive athletes. However, about the only thing that changes in that 1-5 scheme from above is that we spend less time with #4 and #5. If you can’t land reasonably well, you’re not going to be recruited to play for the #1 team in the country (natural selection is a bitch; sorry, white guys), as you’ll probably get hurt. The 4 and 5 are replaced with hypertrophy and a crapload more work at #1 and #2. Basketball guys’ ankle and hip mobility are pretty much atrocious (the former due to excessive ankle taping and high-top shoes…we have this crap to thank for the “advent” of the high ankle sprain and patellofemoral pain syndrome epidemic). Plus, their longer spines mandate a lot more work for lumbo-pelvic motor control.

I should mention that we have to handle things a bit differently with those guys who have slow feet - especially the bit men. They need a lot more work along the lines of what you’ve mentioned in the “average” high school kid discussion. The only issue is that you can only do so much movement and pounding with your big men without breaking them down; they won’t hold up like guards will. Makes planning a bit more difficult.

I will say that I don’t use agility ladders. I’ve seen kids get incredibly proficient in the ladders and then have piss poor footwork on the court - and this is something that several football coaches with whom I’ve spoken have said as well. I don’t like the way these implements short-stride athletes when we’re trying to teach them how to effective gain stability with the appropriate base of support in sporting contexts. If you get into a lot of the positions encountered with ladders in the real world of athletics, you’re already too f**ked to quick-foot your way out of it. Just my mini-rant; I think that they’re (for the most part) a babysitting tool when you work with large groups. Some applications, but not that many.

I’m not really sure if I answered the questions that have been posed, but I did type a lot. :wink: Let me know if I missed anything.

Oh, I’d just like to add that our softball team just won in the semi-finals and plays in the championship game next Sunday. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Thanks Eric; good strength levels seem a given in terms of the good athlete - superb points!

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Eric,

Good point about the agility ladders- they are a constant source of argument between me and other coaches at our club!

Personally I would rather just do “game-specific” movement skills, especially shuffling. Lord knows that 90% of high school kids can’t maintain good body position once their knees start to bend a little bit.

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Eric~

Agree 100% on the strength placement. I suppose I am just odd in that I feel relative strength is a given… the “no duh” factor. IMO, if you aren’t strong enough inside to do the things necessary to get strong, then you aren’t going to be an athlete anyway… unless you are just blessed.

I also agree about the agility ladders, dot drills, etc. The only sport these items are helpful with are those that require more foot dexterity, such as soccer. On a ladder you can get kids to hip swivel, move rhythmically, move a-rhythmically, etc… But, since these items are so low force, and since no deep angles are utilized, they are merely a tool for warm-up / balance work, IMO.

Foot dexterity / balance is a huge factor for developing athletes, IMO, which is why I think most all young kids should include soccer as part of their multilateral development.

I totally agree about the movement patterning piece. The process of teaching kids to shuffle, decellerate, and reshuffle, or to shuffle, open the hips, and drive with a positive shin angle takes quite a bit of work with some kids. I have a guy trying to make the MLS who finally got a positive shin angle on his open and drive, and he said, “it feels like I am running downhill!”

Another “no duh” moment.

Good stuff Eric.

Thanks.

J

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[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
Does anyone know why he brings his ass up, and then quickly down just before he lifts? I mean, you could say stretch reflex, but then why not have your ass up the whole time, until just before you pull?[/quote]

I, too, have a fluctuating ass. Its just how some people are, captain. I love it. And you should love his.

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Julia!!

Hehe…

Nothing hotter than a funny girl…

save for a funny girl who lifts…

Huge smile here…

J

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If she likes beef jerky and owns a Red Sox hat, I’d probably propose to her right now. Maybe we need to do a Texas seminar…

:stuck_out_tongue: