Countering Muslim Stereotypes

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
I don’t understand how everytime atheism is discussed, people have to bring up Lenin, Mao and the gand.

Do they teach this at school? It’s a serious question.

I think they get brought up because of the irony of it all.

Atheists will whine about all the killing that has happened because of religion, but two atheists, Mao and Stalin were responsible for killing on an unprecedented scale that puts everyone else to shame.

It really undermines the argument that atheists would be more peaceful.

Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot were Communists too. I’m sure their atrocities have a lot to do with following Marxist ideology.

The real problem is that fascism and communism are too much like religion. They are dogmatic to the core and allow for personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship.

The atrocities aren’t an example of what happens when people reject religion, they are examples of racial, nationalistic and political dogma gone crazy.

Show me a society that suffered when people became too reasonable.[/quote]

Actually show me a society where people are reasonable…If one existed, the rule of law would no longer be needed…“Imagine all the people, sharing all the world, ah ha aaaaaahhhh…”

122

I can probably explain away a lot of “miracles” with DMT.

123

I can probably explain away a lot of “miracles” with DMT.

124

[quote]pat wrote:
.
[/quote]

Thats an interesting flyer, I suppse it is a flyer. The upper text is in russian and the rest seems to be estonian. Where did you find it?

125

[quote]Makavali wrote:
I can probably explain away a lot of “miracles” with DMT.[/quote]

Man, being the dishonest beast he is, most certainly created “fake” miracles to suit his own purpose. The problem with atheism is it requires the atheist to dispel of all of them, which is virtually impossible.
I do not like to discuss miracles in a virtual world. I can say one thing and the other person can say another and there is no way to verify either, we’d have to be standing in front of said miracle and point counter point where we could experience the answers immediately, otherwise we depend on hearsay.

In this environment I much prefer pure deductive reason as it requires no additional material.

I would be interested in trying DMT, it is one of the few hallucinogens I have never tried. That and ecstasy, that one came out after my time, but the right circumstance makes it self happen, I am all over it.

126

[quote]pat wrote:
Makavali wrote:
I can probably explain away a lot of “miracles” with DMT.

Man, being the dishonest beast he is, most certainly created “fake” miracles to suit his own purpose. The problem with atheism is it requires the atheist to dispel of all of them, which is virtually impossible.
I do not like to discuss miracles in a virtual world. I can say one thing and the other person can say another and there is no way to verify either, we’d have to be standing in front of said miracle and point counter point where we could experience the answers immediately, otherwise we depend on hearsay.

In this environment I much prefer pure deductive reason as it requires no additional material.

I would be interested in trying DMT, it is one of the few hallucinogens I have never tried. That and ecstasy, that one came out after my time, but the right circumstance makes it self happen, I am all over it.[/quote]

You have tried DMT. You space out on it every night when you go to sleep. Where did you think dreams came from?

127

[quote]Makavali wrote:
pat wrote:
Makavali wrote:
I can probably explain away a lot of “miracles” with DMT.

Man, being the dishonest beast he is, most certainly created “fake” miracles to suit his own purpose. The problem with atheism is it requires the atheist to dispel of all of them, which is virtually impossible.
I do not like to discuss miracles in a virtual world. I can say one thing and the other person can say another and there is no way to verify either, we’d have to be standing in front of said miracle and point counter point where we could experience the answers immediately, otherwise we depend on hearsay.

In this environment I much prefer pure deductive reason as it requires no additional material.

I would be interested in trying DMT, it is one of the few hallucinogens I have never tried. That and ecstasy, that one came out after my time, but the right circumstance makes it self happen, I am all over it.

You have tried DMT. You space out on it every night when you go to sleep. Where did you think dreams came from?[/quote]

Elevated dopamine levels…I would reckon the very minuscule amounts produced endogenously wouldn’t be enough to do shit. We also produce minute amounts of THC, but again very little, not enough to ever feel stoned in anyway. I am pretty sure if I popped a tab of DMT, it would be unlike anything else I am familiar with.

128

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

Ok so your solution is let one group of deluded irrational fantasy believers talk to the other. I can see your point but am worried that between them they would just come up with more random fantasy.

So much for atheists being better positioned to deal with radical Islalm, because they’re not prone to offend, challenge, or call into question another’s religious beliefs.

Seriously, take an honest position and stick with it. This can’t be about “Well Christians can’t say anything, because they’ll just offend Islamic sensibilities!. But we, atheists are capable.” And then, turn around and go directly on the attack against both groups for holding any religious belief…[/quote]

LOL, was aimed at Sifu. My point was that in discussions with a muslim murderer the atheist sees the murder as being the issue, the Christian blames the religion (this entire thread is a case in point.)

Incidentally, I would be the last person that you would call in to be involved in international diplomacy. World War III would happen pretty quickly!

129

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
OK Pat, what evidence. Come on, lets clear this up. You have evidence that proves there is a god. Fantastic, this is what everyone has been waiting for. Go ahead.

Is believing in God any more crazy in believing in the string theory? [/quote]

Yes

130

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
CB,

It seems to me your theory of Christianity is as hard to believe as the actually religion itself. According to you, there were thousands of myths of Christ. What exactly were these myths? Morality parables? Where is Christ mentioned in the Dead Sea scrolls, for instance? Who had all of these myths and what were their purpose?
The Jews? The Greeks? who?
[/quote]
That is a pretty rough but accurate discription yes. And a lot of the mythology was actually poached from Egypt and Babalonya not surprisingly as they were the dominant cultures at the time.

No, Jesus just means saviour. But yes, it is pretty clear that Paul was interested in defining a new direction for Judaism and pulled together a number of disparate threads.

Contstantine may well have truly believed. He was said to have had a vision heading into an important battle. He was however also a very clever strategic leader so he and his advisors would have seent he benefits of the religion.

So much of Christianity is exactly the same as the Mithra cult that the distinction is not that important.

yes you are hypocrites but only because the standards that you have decided to hold yourselves up to are designed to be impossible to meet.

You have been fucked by the religion that you believe in.

The pope has appologised then gone straight back to endorsing warfare.

[quote]
Yet you continue to bring them up to trash religion which leads me to believe your athiesm is a reaction to something which turned you off from religion.

Am I right? [/quote]

My atheism is a reaction to actually reading the religious books myself at an age where I understood them alongside a decent education that clearly contradicted what I was reading in the Bible.

Minor details like the Jews never being enslaved by the Egyptians leaves the whole thing on pretty shaky ground.

131

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

Atheism is making a call on whether something which we could call god exists. Sure those physicists can be atheists. They just believe that they have it all figured out what is out there and what isn’t.

And yet, they cannot even tell us why the matter we experience has mass and what “mass” actually is, and why most of the material in the universe does not have the property of mass.

Get your smartest quantum physicist in the world, hand him an apple and ask him, why does that thing have mass. Since all matter is mostly space, why doesn’t is simply just pass through our hands. Oh there are threories, but know body knows.

If science can not explain fully even the simplest object, how can we trust it implicitly as all there is to know, or the only means of knowledge?

The reason the apple doesn’t pass through your hands is due to the interaction of strong and weak nuclear forces in the atoms of the apple and the atoms of your hand and I only studied quantum physics to undergrad level.

Just because you don’t understand their explanation doesn’t mean that there is no explanation. Just because it is called a theory doesn’t mean it is not fact.

I am aware of the theory, thank you. It is precisely because it’s a theory means it is not fact…You know how I know? Because it’s a theory, if it were not it would be a fact. Words mean things, you cannot arbitrarily assign meaning to your own ends…It’s a theory not a fact.
To clear it up its not a matter of strong versus weak neclear forces, it is opposing charges of the atoms, or so they say…Still does not explain mass though.[/quote]

A scientific theory is a well supported body of interconnected statements that explains observations and can be used to make testable predictions.

A fact is hypothesis that is so firmly supported by evidence that we assume it is true, and act as if it were true.

Education is just one of the services that I offer.

And sorry, you were right I should have added Electromagnetic force to strong and weak. You need all three for the model to work otherwise the hand would disingergrate as the apple approached.

132

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
I don’t understand how everytime atheism is discussed, people have to bring up Lenin, Mao and the gand.

Do they teach this at school? It’s a serious question.

I think they get brought up because of the irony of it all.

Atheists will whine about all the killing that has happened because of religion, but two atheists, Mao and Stalin were responsible for killing on an unprecedented scale that puts everyone else to shame.

It really undermines the argument that atheists would be more peaceful.

It is just that that argument was never made-

The actual argument was that nobody was ever killed in the name of atheism whereas the same cannot be said about religion.

Now you are trying to split hairs and not doing a good job of it either. Mao and Stalin certainly purged religious people because they had different religious beliefs. Just look at all the Buddhist temples in Tibet that were destroyed by Mao’s troops.

Aha.

They “purged religious people because they had different religious beliefs”.

So what religious beliefs did they have?

And how can you call them atheists then?

Atheism IS a belief, because despite evidence to the contrary, you still believe in nothingness.

OK Pat, what evidence. Come on, lets clear this up. You have evidence that proves there is a god. Fantastic, this is what everyone has been waiting for. Go ahead.

I am not going to do you homework for you, look it up if you want to know. There are such matters as salvation history, the case for miracles, the ontological argument for the existence of God, the Cosmological argument for the existence of God, etc. We’ve done like 10 threads on this topic alone, I would recommend you look them up if you are genuinely curious. I may even be nice enough to find you the links…The threads are many pages long, where pookie and I have gone around and around with it, point counter point.

All I am saying is this, there are evidences for the existence of God. Whether they are good, bad, or indifferent is irrelevant if you cannot PROVE deductively or even inductively that those arguments and evidences are, beyond any shadow of a doubt, wrong.

So, in light of the fact that there are arguments and evidences to the contrary which you cannot fully denounce, you then made a conscious choice to believe that there is no such thing as God. [/quote]

Erm, cop out. If there is evidence of God. Please post it.

133

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

My atheism is a reaction to actually reading the religious books myself at an age where I understood them alongside a decent education that clearly contradicted what I was reading in the Bible.

Minor details like the Jews never being enslaved by the Egyptians leaves the whole thing on pretty shaky ground.[/quote]

excellent, thanks Mak, CB. Ok, you guys were talking about the various myths that came before Christianity. What about Neoplatoism, the Gnostic Religion, they both grew along side Christianity, but the Christians rejected them. Why? You can trace Gnosticism back to Zoasterism from Persia and it ties in and grows with Christianity.

Why do you suppose the early Christians were apposed to this view of the world?

134

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Wow - says a lot about the reality behind the facade of “peaceful” islam.[/quote]

Islam isn’t benign but the real problem is that those people are simply violent animals. It’s in their DNA.

135

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

My atheism is a reaction to actually reading the religious books myself at an age where I understood them alongside a decent education that clearly contradicted what I was reading in the Bible.

Minor details like the Jews never being enslaved by the Egyptians leaves the whole thing on pretty shaky ground.

excellent, thanks Mak, CB. Ok, you guys were talking about the various myths that came before Christianity. What about Neoplatoism, the Gnostic Religion, they both grew along side Christianity, but the Christians rejected them. Why? You can trace Gnosticism back to Zoasterism from Persia and it ties in and grows with Christianity.

Why do you suppose the early Christians were apposed to this view of the world? [/quote]

I am reading a really good book about the changes in the major faiths around the 9th century BC that led to the modern religions that we have today. It’s called The Great Transformation by Karen Armstrong.

With reference to Gnosticism it wasn’t totally rejected, parts of it were incorporated into Christianity.

The base division between Gnosticism and Christianity is over whether the God figure is perfect or imperfect. Christianity has divided further over far less fundamental matters.

136

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
I don’t understand how everytime atheism is discussed, people have to bring up Lenin, Mao and the gand.

Do they teach this at school? It’s a serious question.

I think they get brought up because of the irony of it all.

Atheists will whine about all the killing that has happened because of religion, but two atheists, Mao and Stalin were responsible for killing on an unprecedented scale that puts everyone else to shame.

It really undermines the argument that atheists would be more peaceful.

It is just that that argument was never made-

The actual argument was that nobody was ever killed in the name of atheism whereas the same cannot be said about religion.

Now you are trying to split hairs and not doing a good job of it either. Mao and Stalin certainly purged religious people because they had different religious beliefs. Just look at all the Buddhist temples in Tibet that were destroyed by Mao’s troops.

Aha.

They “purged religious people because they had different religious beliefs”.

So what religious beliefs did they have?

And how can you call them atheists then?

Atheism IS a belief, because despite evidence to the contrary, you still believe in nothingness.

OK Pat, what evidence. Come on, lets clear this up. You have evidence that proves there is a god. Fantastic, this is what everyone has been waiting for. Go ahead.

I am not going to do you homework for you, look it up if you want to know. There are such matters as salvation history, the case for miracles, the ontological argument for the existence of God, the Cosmological argument for the existence of God, etc. We’ve done like 10 threads on this topic alone, I would recommend you look them up if you are genuinely curious. I may even be nice enough to find you the links…The threads are many pages long, where pookie and I have gone around and around with it, point counter point.

All I am saying is this, there are evidences for the existence of God. Whether they are good, bad, or indifferent is irrelevant if you cannot PROVE deductively or even inductively that those arguments and evidences are, beyond any shadow of a doubt, wrong.

So, in light of the fact that there are arguments and evidences to the contrary which you cannot fully denounce, you then made a conscious choice to believe that there is no such thing as God.

Erm, cop out. If there is evidence of God. Please post it.[/quote]

I will dig up the old links for you when I have a chance if you really want to read about it. Now if I post the links for you, you must be honest enough to read all of it because it is excruciatingly detailed. You will like it because pookie does a bang up job representing your side.
I will welcome you comments and counter arguments after you have read it all. Or, you can do your own research and come up with counter points. There are many arguments available, I tend to fancy the Cosmological argument.
What I am not going to do is start yet another mega-dialog about this again. It’s not my fault you were late in the game.

And seriously, you should already know about all this stuff with out me having to tell you, otherwise your conclusion is very weak.

137

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
I don’t understand how everytime atheism is discussed, people have to bring up Lenin, Mao and the gand.

Do they teach this at school? It’s a serious question.

I think they get brought up because of the irony of it all.

Atheists will whine about all the killing that has happened because of religion, but two atheists, Mao and Stalin were responsible for killing on an unprecedented scale that puts everyone else to shame.

It really undermines the argument that atheists would be more peaceful.

It is just that that argument was never made-

The actual argument was that nobody was ever killed in the name of atheism whereas the same cannot be said about religion.

Now you are trying to split hairs and not doing a good job of it either. Mao and Stalin certainly purged religious people because they had different religious beliefs. Just look at all the Buddhist temples in Tibet that were destroyed by Mao’s troops.

Aha.

They “purged religious people because they had different religious beliefs”.

So what religious beliefs did they have?

And how can you call them atheists then?

Atheism IS a belief, because despite evidence to the contrary, you still believe in nothingness.

OK Pat, what evidence. Come on, lets clear this up. You have evidence that proves there is a god. Fantastic, this is what everyone has been waiting for. Go ahead.

I am not going to do you homework for you, look it up if you want to know. There are such matters as salvation history, the case for miracles, the ontological argument for the existence of God, the Cosmological argument for the existence of God, etc. We’ve done like 10 threads on this topic alone, I would recommend you look them up if you are genuinely curious. I may even be nice enough to find you the links…The threads are many pages long, where pookie and I have gone around and around with it, point counter point.

All I am saying is this, there are evidences for the existence of God. Whether they are good, bad, or indifferent is irrelevant if you cannot PROVE deductively or even inductively that those arguments and evidences are, beyond any shadow of a doubt, wrong.

So, in light of the fact that there are arguments and evidences to the contrary which you cannot fully denounce, you then made a conscious choice to believe that there is no such thing as God.

Erm, cop out. If there is evidence of God. Please post it.[/quote]

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/religion_just_a_form_of_brain_washing?id=2180650&pageNo=24

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/do_you_belive_in_god?id=1983650&pageNo=29

Here are couple of them, but it’s not the one I wanted.That one grew out of one of these posts that went severely off topic. I just simply don’t have time to look it up as the search feature isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be.
I searched using key words and phrases that I know we used, but no results came up…If I have time later I will try to dig it up.

In the first one, that mbm guy does an embarrassing job representing atheists, so I apologize for him. The second one is better, but it is loooooong.

Or, like I said…You could look up the Cosmological argument in it’s various forms and read the argument and counter arguments. And we can then discuss if you wish. But if you want to discuss in reality I expect a good faith effort on your part; I can insult and name call with the best of them, but that will not get us anywhere.

138

[quote]pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
I don’t understand how everytime atheism is discussed, people have to bring up Lenin, Mao and the gand.

Do they teach this at school? It’s a serious question.

I think they get brought up because of the irony of it all.

Atheists will whine about all the killing that has happened because of religion, but two atheists, Mao and Stalin were responsible for killing on an unprecedented scale that puts everyone else to shame.

It really undermines the argument that atheists would be more peaceful.

It is just that that argument was never made-

The actual argument was that nobody was ever killed in the name of atheism whereas the same cannot be said about religion.

How do you do something in the name of which does not exist? The fact still is, that these most famous of atheists killed millions of people because they did not believe as they did. That would be tantamount to killing in the name of atheism would it not? Or should they be shouting as they pump hot lead in to 200 Catholic school children, “I slay thee in the name of great nothingness!!!” “Long live nothing!”

Did they believe in “atheism”?

Funny, where I come from we call them Nazis and Communists.

Yes, they even had posters to advertise. For Nothing’s sake man, you live in a former soviet satellite! You should know this stuff…Your people skinned communists alive in the streets! Here is an example of former soviet atheist propaganda.[/quote]

I live in a former Soviet satellite?

And I thought our construction union beat the shit out of the communists when they tried to make us one?

139

[quote]orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
I don’t understand how everytime atheism is discussed, people have to bring up Lenin, Mao and the gand.

Do they teach this at school? It’s a serious question.

I think they get brought up because of the irony of it all.

Atheists will whine about all the killing that has happened because of religion, but two atheists, Mao and Stalin were responsible for killing on an unprecedented scale that puts everyone else to shame.

It really undermines the argument that atheists would be more peaceful.

It is just that that argument was never made-

The actual argument was that nobody was ever killed in the name of atheism whereas the same cannot be said about religion.

How do you do something in the name of which does not exist? The fact still is, that these most famous of atheists killed millions of people because they did not believe as they did. That would be tantamount to killing in the name of atheism would it not? Or should they be shouting as they pump hot lead in to 200 Catholic school children, “I slay thee in the name of great nothingness!!!” “Long live nothing!”

Did they believe in “atheism”?

Funny, where I come from we call them Nazis and Communists.

Yes, they even had posters to advertise. For Nothing’s sake man, you live in a former soviet satellite! You should know this stuff…Your people skinned communists alive in the streets! Here is an example of former soviet atheist propaganda.

I live in a former Soviet satellite?

And I thought our construction union beat the shit out of the communists when they tried to make us one?

[/quote]

Satalite may be a bit strong, you do know that Austria was occupied by the Soviet Union for 10 years, right? Please tell me you knew that.

140

[quote]pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
I don’t understand how everytime atheism is discussed, people have to bring up Lenin, Mao and the gand.

Do they teach this at school? It’s a serious question.

I think they get brought up because of the irony of it all.

Atheists will whine about all the killing that has happened because of religion, but two atheists, Mao and Stalin were responsible for killing on an unprecedented scale that puts everyone else to shame.

It really undermines the argument that atheists would be more peaceful.

It is just that that argument was never made-

The actual argument was that nobody was ever killed in the name of atheism whereas the same cannot be said about religion.

How do you do something in the name of which does not exist? The fact still is, that these most famous of atheists killed millions of people because they did not believe as they did. That would be tantamount to killing in the name of atheism would it not? Or should they be shouting as they pump hot lead in to 200 Catholic school children, “I slay thee in the name of great nothingness!!!” “Long live nothing!”

Did they believe in “atheism”?

Funny, where I come from we call them Nazis and Communists.

Yes, they even had posters to advertise. For Nothing’s sake man, you live in a former soviet satellite! You should know this stuff…Your people skinned communists alive in the streets! Here is an example of former soviet atheist propaganda.

I live in a former Soviet satellite?

And I thought our construction union beat the shit out of the communists when they tried to make us one?

Satalite may be a bit strong, you do know that Austria was occupied by the Soviet Union for 10 years, right? Please tell me you knew that.[/quote]

We were occupied by all four allies, like Germany.