Countering Muslim Stereotypes

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
I don’t understand how everytime atheism is discussed, people have to bring up Lenin, Mao and the gand.

Do they teach this at school? It’s a serious question.

I think they get brought up because of the irony of it all.

Atheists will whine about all the killing that has happened because of religion, but two atheists, Mao and Stalin were responsible for killing on an unprecedented scale that puts everyone else to shame.

It really undermines the argument that atheists would be more peaceful.

It is just that that argument was never made-

The actual argument was that nobody was ever killed in the name of atheism whereas the same cannot be said about religion.

How do you do something in the name of which does not exist? The fact still is, that these most famous of atheists killed millions of people because they did not believe as they did. That would be tantamount to killing in the name of atheism would it not? Or should they be shouting as they pump hot lead in to 200 Catholic school children, “I slay thee in the name of great nothingness!!!” “Long live nothing!”

Did they believe in “atheism”?

Funny, where I come from we call them Nazis and Communists.

Yes, they even had posters to advertise. For Nothing’s sake man, you live in a former soviet satellite! You should know this stuff…Your people skinned communists alive in the streets! Here is an example of former soviet atheist propaganda.

I live in a former Soviet satellite?

And I thought our construction union beat the shit out of the communists when they tried to make us one?

Satalite may be a bit strong, you do know that Austria was occupied by the Soviet Union for 10 years, right? Please tell me you knew that.

We were occupied by all four allies, like Germany.

[/quote]

Ok, good…Yes, but the soviets were the prime influence and as long as Stalin was alive, you were not going to be released.

142

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
I don’t understand how everytime atheism is discussed, people have to bring up Lenin, Mao and the gand.

Do they teach this at school? It’s a serious question.

I think they get brought up because of the irony of it all.

Atheists will whine about all the killing that has happened because of religion, but two atheists, Mao and Stalin were responsible for killing on an unprecedented scale that puts everyone else to shame.

It really undermines the argument that atheists would be more peaceful.

It is just that that argument was never made-

The actual argument was that nobody was ever killed in the name of atheism whereas the same cannot be said about religion.

Now you are trying to split hairs and not doing a good job of it either. Mao and Stalin certainly purged religious people because they had different religious beliefs. Just look at all the Buddhist temples in Tibet that were destroyed by Mao’s troops.

Aha.

They “purged religious people because they had different religious beliefs”.

So what religious beliefs did they have?

And how can you call them atheists then?

Atheism IS a belief, because despite evidence to the contrary, you still believe in nothingness.

OK Pat, what evidence. Come on, lets clear this up. You have evidence that proves there is a god. Fantastic, this is what everyone has been waiting for. Go ahead.

I am not going to do you homework for you, look it up if you want to know. There are such matters as salvation history, the case for miracles, the ontological argument for the existence of God, the Cosmological argument for the existence of God, etc.

We’ve done like 10 threads on this topic alone, I would recommend you look them up if you are genuinely curious. I may even be nice enough to find you the links…The threads are many pages long, where pookie and I have gone around and around with it, point counter point.

All I am saying is this, there are evidences for the existence of God. Whether they are good, bad, or indifferent is irrelevant if you cannot PROVE deductively or even inductively that those arguments and evidences are, beyond any shadow of a doubt, wrong.

So, in light of the fact that there are arguments and evidences to the contrary which you cannot fully denounce, you then made a conscious choice to believe that there is no such thing as God.

Erm, cop out. If there is evidence of God. Please post it.

I will dig up the old links for you when I have a chance if you really want to read about it. Now if I post the links for you, you must be honest enough to read all of it because it is excruciatingly detailed.

You will like it because pookie does a bang up job representing your side.

I will welcome you comments and counter arguments after you have read it all. Or, you can do your own research and come up with counter points. There are many arguments available, I tend to fancy the Cosmological argument.
What I am not going to do is start yet another mega-dialog about this again. It’s not my fault you were late in the game.

And seriously, you should already know about all this stuff with out me having to tell you, otherwise your conclusion is very weak. [/quote]

Would appreciate the links. Will read them!

143

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
I don’t understand how everytime atheism is discussed, people have to bring up Lenin, Mao and the gand.

Do they teach this at school? It’s a serious question.

I think they get brought up because of the irony of it all.

Atheists will whine about all the killing that has happened because of religion, but two atheists, Mao and Stalin were responsible for killing on an unprecedented scale that puts everyone else to shame.

It really undermines the argument that atheists would be more peaceful.

It is just that that argument was never made-

The actual argument was that nobody was ever killed in the name of atheism whereas the same cannot be said about religion.

Now you are trying to split hairs and not doing a good job of it either. Mao and Stalin certainly purged religious people because they had different religious beliefs. Just look at all the Buddhist temples in Tibet that were destroyed by Mao’s troops.

Aha.

They “purged religious people because they had different religious beliefs”.

So what religious beliefs did they have?

And how can you call them atheists then?

Atheism IS a belief, because despite evidence to the contrary, you still believe in nothingness.

OK Pat, what evidence. Come on, lets clear this up. You have evidence that proves there is a god. Fantastic, this is what everyone has been waiting for. Go ahead.

I am not going to do you homework for you, look it up if you want to know. There are such matters as salvation history, the case for miracles, the ontological argument for the existence of God, the Cosmological argument for the existence of God, etc. We’ve done like 10 threads on this topic alone, I would recommend you look them up if you are genuinely curious. I may even be nice enough to find you the links…The threads are many pages long, where pookie and I have gone around and around with it, point counter point.

All I am saying is this, there are evidences for the existence of God. Whether they are good, bad, or indifferent is irrelevant if you cannot PROVE deductively or even inductively that those arguments and evidences are, beyond any shadow of a doubt, wrong.

So, in light of the fact that there are arguments and evidences to the contrary which you cannot fully denounce, you then made a conscious choice to believe that there is no such thing as God.

Erm, cop out. If there is evidence of God. Please post it.

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/religion_just_a_form_of_brain_washing?id=2180650&pageNo=24

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/do_you_belive_in_god?id=1983650&pageNo=29

Here are couple of them, but it’s not the one I wanted.That one grew out of one of these posts that went severely off topic. I just simply don’t have time to look it up as the search feature isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be.
I searched using key words and phrases that I know we used, but no results came up…If I have time later I will try to dig it up.

In the first one, that mbm guy does an embarrassing job representing atheists, so I apologize for him. The second one is better, but it is loooooong.

Or, like I said…You could look up the Cosmological argument in it’s various forms and read the argument and counter arguments. And we can then discuss if you wish.

But if you want to discuss in reality I expect a good faith effort on your part; I can insult and name call with the best of them, but that will not get us anywhere.[/quote]

Hey no worries, I appreciate the effort.

144

[quote]orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
I don’t understand how everytime atheism is discussed, people have to bring up Lenin, Mao and the gand.

Do they teach this at school? It’s a serious question.

I think they get brought up because of the irony of it all.

Atheists will whine about all the killing that has happened because of religion, but two atheists, Mao and Stalin were responsible for killing on an unprecedented scale that puts everyone else to shame.

It really undermines the argument that atheists would be more peaceful.

It is just that that argument was never made-

The actual argument was that nobody was ever killed in the name of atheism whereas the same cannot be said about religion.

How do you do something in the name of which does not exist? The fact still is, that these most famous of atheists killed millions of people because they did not believe as they did. That would be tantamount to killing in the name of atheism would it not?

Or should they be shouting as they pump hot lead in to 200 Catholic school children, “I slay thee in the name of great nothingness!!!” “Long live nothing!”

Did they believe in “atheism”?

Funny, where I come from we call them Nazis and Communists.

Yes, they even had posters to advertise. For Nothing’s sake man, you live in a former soviet satellite! You should know this stuff…Your people skinned communists alive in the streets! Here is an example of former soviet atheist propaganda.

I live in a former Soviet satellite?

And I thought our construction union beat the shit out of the communists when they tried to make us one?

Satalite may be a bit strong, you do know that Austria was occupied by the Soviet Union for 10 years, right? Please tell me you knew that.

We were occupied by all four allies, like Germany.

[/quote]

You came out of it ok though. Vienna was one of my favourite cities that I visited on my tour of that part of Europe.

145

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
I don’t understand how everytime atheism is discussed, people have to bring up Lenin, Mao and the gand.

Do they teach this at school? It’s a serious question.

I think they get brought up because of the irony of it all.

Atheists will whine about all the killing that has happened because of religion, but two atheists, Mao and Stalin were responsible for killing on an unprecedented scale that puts everyone else to shame.

It really undermines the argument that atheists would be more peaceful.

It is just that that argument was never made-

The actual argument was that nobody was ever killed in the name of atheism whereas the same cannot be said about religion.

How do you do something in the name of which does not exist? The fact still is, that these most famous of atheists killed millions of people because they did not believe as they did. That would be tantamount to killing in the name of atheism would it not?

Or should they be shouting as they pump hot lead in to 200 Catholic school children, “I slay thee in the name of great nothingness!!!” “Long live nothing!”

Did they believe in “atheism”?

Funny, where I come from we call them Nazis and Communists.

Yes, they even had posters to advertise. For Nothing’s sake man, you live in a former soviet satellite! You should know this stuff…Your people skinned communists alive in the streets! Here is an example of former soviet atheist propaganda.

I live in a former Soviet satellite?

And I thought our construction union beat the shit out of the communists when they tried to make us one?

Satalite may be a bit strong, you do know that Austria was occupied by the Soviet Union for 10 years, right? Please tell me you knew that.

We were occupied by all four allies, like Germany.

You came out of it ok though. Vienna was one of my favourite cities that I visited on my tour of that part of Europe.[/quote]

Austria is one of the most beautiful countries in Europe. I only wish I could have spent more time there, Wein is very regal.

146

[quote]orion wrote:
I live in a former Soviet satellite?
[/quote]

Not spuntnik, I hope!

147

[quote]yusef wrote:

You’re making assumptions that the intelligence of some that you’re speaking to is actually enough for them to be able to comprehend, let alone actually question their own view rather than try to shoot you down without considering what you say.
[/quote]

Bigotry goes both ways.

148

[quote]yusef wrote:
lixy wrote:

It should be obvious that I acknowledge no other authority than God’s when it comes to “what Islam is and isn’t”. The prophet Mohamed himself was ambivalent when it came to interpreting the Holy Text. There’s a quote attributed to him that goes: “The one who interprets the Quran from his own point of view, and is right, then he erred.”

Besides, I am certainly not the one who “likes to come on here and talk about what Islam is and isn’t”. I don’t start threads on Islam. The only reason I started hanging out here was the sheer amount of propaganda trying to demonize Islam.

Lixy, I think your comments are wasted on these forums, with responses such as ‘er… Wahabis, aren’t they islamic?’ and ‘Whats your point?’.

You’re making assumptions that the intelligence of some that you’re speaking to is actually enough for them to be able to comprehend, let alone actually question their own view rather than try to shoot you down without considering what you say.

If people have this kind of view of Islam, they will look for things that back up their views and disregard that which doesn’t. Bigotry, I believe it is called.
[/quote]

This is the post that I should have made a long time ago.

Guys, don’t bother arguing and debating on an online forum with a bunch of internet jedis, spend your time in more constructive ways. There are a ton of people out there who are receptive to learning about Islam.

149

[quote]yusef wrote:
lixy wrote:

It should be obvious that I acknowledge no other authority than God’s when it comes to “what Islam is and isn’t”. The prophet Mohamed himself was ambivalent when it came to interpreting the Holy Text. There’s a quote attributed to him that goes: “The one who interprets the Quran from his own point of view, and is right, then he erred.”

Besides, I am certainly not the one who “likes to come on here and talk about what Islam is and isn’t”. I don’t start threads on Islam. The only reason I started hanging out here was the sheer amount of propaganda trying to demonize Islam.

Lixy, I think your comments are wasted on these forums, with responses such as ‘er… Wahabis, aren’t they islamic?’ and ‘Whats your point?’.

You’re making assumptions that the intelligence of some that you’re speaking to is actually enough for them to be able to comprehend, let alone actually question their own view rather than try to shoot you down without considering what you say.

If people have this kind of view of Islam, they will look for things that back up their views and disregard that which doesn’t. Bigotry, I believe it is called.
[/quote]

If that is the route you wish to go down there are several other terms you should learn.

For example, when a person has a serious behavioral problem that is readily apparent to others but they refuse to acept that they have a problem even when it is clearly made evident to them. The term for that is denial.

Then there is a defense mechanism that goes along with denial, where one come up with excuses that make sense of what they are being told. That is called rationalisation.

Since you are in denial that there is anything wrong with Islam you use the rationalization that any criticism of Islam is motivated by bigotry.

150

Perhaps you should read the title and subject matter of this thread…

151

[quote]yusef wrote:
‘er… Wahabis, aren’t they islamic?’ [/quote]

Another word to learn: Sarcasm.

Sometimes it’s lost on internet forums.

152

Well- as a descendant of both Crusaders and Arabs, I definitely have some opinions on this topic. As a member of a persecuted faith, I really have some opinions on this.

Here’s my bottom line - as long as Muslims are not instigating violence by taking up arms against anyone on religious grounds - I have no issue with them.

Bottom line part two - As long as Catholics are not instigating violence by taking up arms against anyone based on religious grounds - I have no issue with them either.

The problem is Muslims have continually instigated violence and taken up arms against other peoples since its inception and continue to do so to this day. Having been raised around and personal acquainted with a number of Muslims - this is not a personal vindictive, merely an accurate observation.

Should Islam stop its quest for global domination -I could live peacefully with Islam. But how are they to ignore a direct command from Allah to establish world-wide dominion in his name?

Thus, it remains that it is not we who have problems with Islam, but Islam that has problems with the rest of us.

That is not a stereotype - it is merely history.

153

Besides - I don’t want to be a dhimmi - I’m much too independent for that.

155

[quote]yusef wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Well- as a descendant of both Crusaders and Arabs, I definitely have some opinions on this topic. As a member of a persecuted faith, I really have some opinions on this.

Here’s my bottom line - as long as Muslims are not instigating violence by taking up arms against anyone on religious grounds - I have no issue with them.

Bottom line part two - As long as Catholics are not instigating violence by taking up arms against anyone based on religious grounds - I have no issue with them either.

The problem is Muslims have continually instigated violence and taken up arms against other peoples since its inception and continue to do so to this day. Having been raised around and personal acquainted with a number of Muslims - this is not a personal vindictive, merely an accurate observation.

Should Islam stop its quest for global domination -I could live peacefully with Islam. But how are they to ignore a direct command from Allah to establish world-wide dominion in his name?

Thus, it remains that it is not we who have problems with Islam, but Islam that has problems with the rest of us.

That is not a stereotype - it is merely history.

Well said. But can you see that as a catholic or a muslim who does not spend their waking hours trying to instigate violence or take over the world at any opportunity, (I believe I fit into this category), then we do not deserve to be lumped in the same boat?
[/quote]

Aye - but you do share responsibility in countering those who would use your faith as an instrument of such deeds. Does that make sense? As far as I can, Catholics are very good at this- while Muslims, on the other hand, do a very poor job - but this is complicated as I indicated by my earlier comments.

156

All I have to say is that unless you have been to Iraq or Afghanistan, you will never understand their culture. Those of us in the US have been exposed to a watered down version of the Islamic religion. Yes, it is prevalent in the US, however, they do not take it to the extreme like they do in the Middle East.

I will say that not every Muslim that I have met is a bad person. In fact, there are many kind hearted Muslim men and women in this world, who live their lives according to the actual teachings of Muhammad, not some abhorration of the truth. I have been shot at and blown up, and this topic is near and dear to my heart. I have lost good friends and fellow Soldiers to the war. We are there for a good reason. I can assure you of that. We are improving the lives of the people in Iraq and Afghanistan. Things are steadily improving in those two countries. Trust me, I have seen it with my own two eyes.

I will now get off of my soap box. Let me know if you have any questions.

157

[quote]Rogue57 wrote:
All I have to say is that unless you have been to Iraq or Afghanistan, you will never understand their culture. Those of us in the US have been exposed to a watered down version of the Islamic religion. Yes, it is prevalent in the US, however, they do not take it to the extreme like they do in the Middle East.

I will say that not every Muslim that I have met is a bad person. In fact, there are many kind hearted Muslim men and women in this world, who live their lives according to the actual teachings of Muhammad, not some abhorration of the truth. I have been shot at and blown up, and this topic is near and dear to my heart. I have lost good friends and fellow Soldiers to the war. We are there for a good reason. I can assure you of that. We are improving the lives of the people in Iraq and Afghanistan. Things are steadily improving in those two countries. Trust me, I have seen it with my own two eyes.

I will now get off of my soap box. Let me know if you have any questions.[/quote]

I thank you sincerely for your service and your sacrifice. Let me know if there is ever any way I can be of assistance to you.

158

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Should Islam stop its quest for global domination -I could live peacefully with Islam. But how are they to ignore a direct command from Allah to establish world-wide dominion in his name? [/quote]

“Direct command from Allah to establish world-wide dominion in his name”?

Open up the Quran. It says that God will establish it, not the other way around.

The people that go around killing, expropriating and pillaging in the name of Allah are criminals. They’re the Islamic equivalent of Zionism for Judaism. Going around thinking they’re The Chosen People, dehumanizing anything that stands in the way.

Really, open up a Quran. You may learn a thing or two.

159

[quote]Rogue57 wrote:
I have been shot at and blown up, and this topic is near and dear to my heart. [/quote]

You would shoot at Iraqis if they bombed your country, invaded it and proceeded to establish military bases on the ground.

May they rest in peace.

And I can assure you, that had the situation been reversed, Iraqi soldiers would be saying the exact same words.

You’re a pawn. No more, no less.

Trust me, British and French colonies were steadily improving all over their respective empires. I could go on and give you examples from all over history to illustrate the same point.

That doesn’t make what imperialistic forces did any less cruel or immoral.

Understood?

160

[quote]lixy wrote:
The people that go around killing, expropriating and pillaging in the name of Allah are criminals. [/quote]

Like the Prophet?