Corporal Punishment Study

Off Topic
102

[quote]pushharder wrote:

As do millions of successful, loving parents who employ corporal punishment. I’m no rarity.[/quote]

and as do those that abuse it, and as do those that don’t use it. in fairness, you allege he has his slant, and you surely have your agenda as well.

i certainly don’t know the answers. they don’t come with an instruction book or a crystal ball of cause and effect. the best intentioned plans often go awry and complete neglect can have a happy ending. it’s complex.

i was on board relative to spanking for outward defiance; but the more I mull it over, I cannot reconcile that to spank your child is still committing an act of violence. and i’m not buying it can be done devoid of anger. and if anything ANGERS a parent, it’s outward defiance.

at least let’s have an honest dialogue here (not calling you out Push, making a general statement).

104

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

As do millions of successful, loving parents who employ corporal punishment. I’m no rarity.[/quote]

and as do those that abuse it, and as do those that don’t use it. in fairness, you allege he has his slant, and you surely have your agenda as well.

i certainly don’t know the answers. they don’t come with an instruction book or a crystal ball of cause and effect. the best intentioned plans often go awry and complete neglect can have a happy ending. it’s complex.

i was on board relative to spanking for outward defiance; but the more I mull it over, I cannot reconcile that to spank your child is still committing an act of violence. and i’m not buying it can be done devoid of anger. and if anything ANGERS a parent, it’s outward defiance.

at least let’s have an honest dialogue here (not calling you out Push, making a general statement). [/quote]

Most things can be abused and surely c.p. is one of them. You don’t therefore throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It is a complete myth that children are so incredibly fragile that WHEN they are defiant and are subsequently spanked they will somehow be scarred for life from the “violence” that was “inflicted” on them by “someone who loves them.” It’s an absolute joke to suggest if a daughter is spanked from ~2 - ~6 for defiance that she will become a ready candidate for her husband to beat the stuffing out of her 20 years later.

If I really wanted to pursue this further I could make a very plausible case that if you DON’T spank your child for willful, defiant disobedience you ARE mistreating them. That’s right, I said it - you are doing your child and those around you and YOU a disservice by not spanking when spanking is due.

Another reason I tend to despise the no-spanking vogue is precisely that. It has become the chic, the cool, the trendy thing to do. Then folks get to sit around and brag how “Violence breeds violence sooooo I would NEVER spank my precious little Heather or Justin. Nooooooo way, those who do it are such beasts, in fact even the “good ones” are borderline child abusers.”

Horseshit.

I’ve seen these kids (not just the end result) in society and in my own family (nieces, nephews, friends, schoolmates) who live in these “Ahem, I would never spank my child!!” homes and they generally are one royal pain in the ass prima donna brats. It’s not that they are just “spunky”, they are BRATS. They know how to work the “system.” Kids aren’t dumb. They know bullshit “timeout” stuff is…bullshit.

Yes, it is true if you are a weak, prone to rage, undisciplined parent you may want to abstain from corporal punishment altogether. Or you could just man up and learn to control your emotions yet still do what is best for the child.

I’m not picking on you TBG or anyone else in particular but I DO get disgusted with this pansy-ass attitude that seems to be so pervasive in our society. I will concede it is primarily a backlash against the child abuse cases that we all have heard about and many are personally familiar with but THAT is the wrong reason not to spank however. Again, the baby doesn’t need go with the bathwater.

[/quote]

nothing personal here Push but I have no interest in debating this…when we have that drink one day maybe, among other things.

however, my fence sitting and current leanings have nothing to do with what is in vogue, what any expert says, or any backlash relative to abuse; it has to do with how it makes me feel.

your anecdotal observations aside, surely you understand that there are many perfectly well adjusted successful adults that were NOT spanked as children?

and here i am getting sucked into a debate; what’s the more valuable lesson? don’t “fuck with dad” cause he’ll whip your ass or, don’t break the rules because they have unpleasant and predictable consequences?

an whoopin lasts but a moment; my son has lost various privileges for the last two weeks. which lesson do you think is stronger? i know what i think, because i’ve seen him correct the objectionable behavior (which was not major to start with).

105

Part of the problem with this sort of discussion is that it becomes about methods rather than principles. We talk about “spanking”, “time-outs” and “punishment” as if it is a foregone conclusion that any of these things actually reduce the unwanted behaviour in the future (or a foregone conclusion that they don’t). No-one is measuring, outside the lab.

We also concern ourselves with the severity of the method. “Beating” is differentiated from “spanking”. A “time-out” is declared to be kinder than a “spanking”. I won’t tell you what my father used to call it, but it wasn’t a “spanking” and it wouldn’t have mattered to me whether it was a quick smack or the repeated whacking that I used to push him into with my willful, defiant disobedience.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
If I really wanted to pursue this further I could make a very plausible case that if you DON’T spank your child for willful, defiant disobedience you ARE mistreating them. That’s right, I said it - you are doing your child and those around you and YOU a disservice by not spanking when spanking is due.
[/quote]

I think anyone who raises their kid to be a shit is mistreating them. You are doing your child and those around you a disservice by not raising a kid who knows better and gets enjoyment out of respecting others and themselves. This I agree with. Whether you could make a very plausible case that this can only be achieved with “spanking” I am highly doubtful.

I think it’s a shame that the debate centres around corporal punishment. There are many ways to abuse a child and by making a villain out of spanking some of the scientific establishment has effectively paved the way for parents to make all sorts of other mistakes while they play the man and not the ball.

107

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:

…Whether you could make a very plausible case that this can only be achieved with “spanking” I am highly doubtful…

[/quote]

Ahh…my friend…clever use of the adverb “only.”

But not quite clever enough.
[/quote]

I wasn’t trying to be clever, you were specific, and most likely deliberate, in not including anything other than spanking.

109

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I never even came close to implying or expressing “only.” I WOULD though happily express the words “most effective.”[/quote]

“That’s right, I said it - you are doing your child and those around you and YOU a disservice by not spanking when spanking is due”

Sorry if I misunderstood, the above is what I was referring to.

111

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:

We also concern ourselves with the severity of the method. “Beating” is differentiated from “spanking”. A “time-out” is declared to be kinder than a “spanking”. I won’t tell you what my father used to call it, but it wasn’t a “spanking” and it wouldn’t have mattered to me whether it was a quick smack or the repeated whacking that I used to push him into with my willful, defiant disobedience.

[/quote]

Did the spanking make it less likely that you were going to do whatever you decided would be a good idea as a kid?

I’m convinced that makes or breaks a kid is how consistent and fair the parent is, not whether or not their parents are spanking them.

112

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:

We also concern ourselves with the severity of the method. “Beating” is differentiated from “spanking”. A “time-out” is declared to be kinder than a “spanking”. I won’t tell you what my father used to call it, but it wasn’t a “spanking” and it wouldn’t have mattered to me whether it was a quick smack or the repeated whacking that I used to push him into with my willful, defiant disobedience.

[/quote]

Did the spanking make it less likely that you were going to do whatever you decided would be a good idea as a kid?
[/quote]

Very unlikely, and in fact I distinctly remember pushing him to do it which suggests it was reinforcing.

It was not abuse, it was what he thought he had to do and he learned that it was ineffective. I love and respect my father despite those mistakes, and I have made similar mistakes as a parent. There are many influences that a parent has on a child, and a parent is not the only influence on a child. The old man got a lot right, too.

This is one of the things that makes me dubious about big claims made about single things that parents might do. We know from experimental data that punishment (not just spanking) comes with a whole raft of problems, all of which parents who use it think won’t apply to them. And they might be right, because that’s not all they do (hopefully).

113

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

As do millions of successful, loving parents who employ corporal punishment. I’m no rarity.[/quote]

and as do those that abuse it, and as do those that don’t use it. in fairness, you allege he has his slant, and you surely have your agenda as well.

i certainly don’t know the answers. they don’t come with an instruction book or a crystal ball of cause and effect. the best intentioned plans often go awry and complete neglect can have a happy ending. it’s complex.

i was on board relative to spanking for outward defiance; but the more I mull it over, I cannot reconcile that to spank your child is still committing an act of violence. and i’m not buying it can be done devoid of anger. and if anything ANGERS a parent, it’s outward defiance.

at least let’s have an honest dialogue here (not calling you out Push, making a general statement). [/quote]

Most things can be abused and surely c.p. is one of them. You don’t therefore throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It is a complete myth that children are so incredibly fragile that WHEN they are defiant and are subsequently spanked they will somehow be scarred for life from the “violence” that was “inflicted” on them by “someone who loves them.” It’s an absolute joke to suggest if a daughter is spanked from ~2 - ~6 for defiance that she will become a ready candidate for her husband to beat the stuffing out of her 20 years later.

If I really wanted to pursue this further I could make a very plausible case that if you DON’T spank your child for willful, defiant disobedience you ARE mistreating them. That’s right, I said it - you are doing your child and those around you and YOU a disservice by not spanking when spanking is due.

Another reason I tend to despise the no-spanking vogue is precisely that. It has become the chic, the cool, the trendy thing to do. Then folks get to sit around and brag how “Violence breeds violence sooooo I would NEVER spank my precious little Heather or Justin. Nooooooo way, those who do it are such beasts, in fact even the “good ones” are borderline child abusers.”

Horseshit.

I’ve seen these kids (not just the end result) in society and in my own family (nieces, nephews, friends, schoolmates) who live in these “Ahem, I would never spank my child!!” homes and they generally are one royal pain in the ass prima donna brats. It’s not that they are just “spunky”, they are BRATS. They know how to work the “system.” Kids aren’t dumb. They know bullshit “timeout” stuff is…bullshit.

Yes, it is true if you are a weak, prone to rage, undisciplined parent you may want to abstain from corporal punishment altogether. Or you could just man up and learn to control your emotions yet still do what is best for the child.

I’m not picking on you TBG or anyone else in particular but I DO get disgusted with this pansy-ass attitude that seems to be so pervasive in our society. I will concede it is primarily a backlash against the child abuse cases that we all have heard about and many are personally familiar with but THAT is the wrong reason not to spank however. Again, the baby doesn’t need go with the bathwater.

[/quote]

Ah, now I see why it is so important to you to insist I have agenda. Because YOU have an agenda. Why would I? It makes no difference to me whether you spank your child or not, I only gave my reasons for not doing it.

As far as your reasoning of someone being a poor parent for not spanking their child, I can tell you I had my fair share of ass whippings and it NEVER factored into whether I was going to misbehave.

114

It did to me, but it was only part of it.

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

As do millions of successful, loving parents who employ corporal punishment. I’m no rarity.[/quote]

and as do those that abuse it, and as do those that don’t use it. in fairness, you allege he has his slant, and you surely have your agenda as well.

i certainly don’t know the answers. they don’t come with an instruction book or a crystal ball of cause and effect. the best intentioned plans often go awry and complete neglect can have a happy ending. it’s complex.

i was on board relative to spanking for outward defiance; but the more I mull it over, I cannot reconcile that to spank your child is still committing an act of violence. and i’m not buying it can be done devoid of anger. and if anything ANGERS a parent, it’s outward defiance.

at least let’s have an honest dialogue here (not calling you out Push, making a general statement). [/quote]

Most things can be abused and surely c.p. is one of them. You don’t therefore throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It is a complete myth that children are so incredibly fragile that WHEN they are defiant and are subsequently spanked they will somehow be scarred for life from the “violence” that was “inflicted” on them by “someone who loves them.” It’s an absolute joke to suggest if a daughter is spanked from ~2 - ~6 for defiance that she will become a ready candidate for her husband to beat the stuffing out of her 20 years later.

If I really wanted to pursue this further I could make a very plausible case that if you DON’T spank your child for willful, defiant disobedience you ARE mistreating them. That’s right, I said it - you are doing your child and those around you and YOU a disservice by not spanking when spanking is due.

Another reason I tend to despise the no-spanking vogue is precisely that. It has become the chic, the cool, the trendy thing to do. Then folks get to sit around and brag how “Violence breeds violence sooooo I would NEVER spank my precious little Heather or Justin. Nooooooo way, those who do it are such beasts, in fact even the “good ones” are borderline child abusers.”

Horseshit.

I’ve seen these kids (not just the end result) in society and in my own family (nieces, nephews, friends, schoolmates) who live in these “Ahem, I would never spank my child!!” homes and they generally are one royal pain in the ass prima donna brats. It’s not that they are just “spunky”, they are BRATS. They know how to work the “system.” Kids aren’t dumb. They know bullshit “timeout” stuff is…bullshit.

Yes, it is true if you are a weak, prone to rage, undisciplined parent you may want to abstain from corporal punishment altogether. Or you could just man up and learn to control your emotions yet still do what is best for the child.

I’m not picking on you TBG or anyone else in particular but I DO get disgusted with this pansy-ass attitude that seems to be so pervasive in our society. I will concede it is primarily a backlash against the child abuse cases that we all have heard about and many are personally familiar with but THAT is the wrong reason not to spank however. Again, the baby doesn’t need go with the bathwater.

[/quote]

Ah, now I see why it is so important to you to insist I have agenda. Because YOU have an agenda. Why would I? It makes no difference to me whether you spank your child or not, I only gave my reasons for not doing it.

As far as your reasoning of someone being a poor parent for not spanking their child, I can tell you I had my fair share of ass whippings and it NEVER factored into whether I was going to misbehave.[/quote]

115

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
Part of the problem with this sort of discussion is that it becomes about methods rather than principles. We talk about “spanking”, “time-outs” and “punishment” as if it is a foregone conclusion that any of these things actually reduce the unwanted behaviour in the future (or a foregone conclusion that they don’t). No-one is measuring, outside the lab.

We also concern ourselves with the severity of the method. “Beating” is differentiated from “spanking”. A “time-out” is declared to be kinder than a “spanking”. I won’t tell you what my father used to call it, but it wasn’t a “spanking” and it wouldn’t have mattered to me whether it was a quick smack or the repeated whacking that I used to push him into with my willful, defiant disobedience.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
If I really wanted to pursue this further I could make a very plausible case that if you DON’T spank your child for willful, defiant disobedience you ARE mistreating them. That’s right, I said it - you are doing your child and those around you and YOU a disservice by not spanking when spanking is due.
[/quote]

I think anyone who raises their kid to be a shit is mistreating them. You are doing your child and those around you a disservice by not raising a kid who knows better and gets enjoyment out of respecting others and themselves. This I agree with. Whether you could make a very plausible case that this can only be achieved with “spanking” I am highly doubtful.

I think it’s a shame that the debate centres around corporal punishment. There are many ways to abuse a child and by making a villain out of spanking some of the scientific establishment has effectively paved the way for parents to make all sorts of other mistakes while they play the man and not the ball.[/quote]

good points.

116

[quote]tom63 wrote:
It did to me, but it was only part of it.

[/quote]

I can appreciate that and can see where it would work for some kids but not others.

My first child is just like me, which means it would come down to a war of wills. I’m sure I could win, but at what price? Her younger sister on the other hand is a total people pleaser, there is simply no need, she gets that we are unhappy and will take measures to rectify it.

I also get that there are times when instant results are warranted, such as your nail example or running through parking lots. However, I live on a lake and from a very early age my girls knew they weren’t to go on the the dock or near the water by themselves. It doesn’t get more immediate than kids around water. Like you said it takes vigilance, but that’s kind of what we signed up for.

117

I remember when my son was 2 he started acting up. My sister said I really needed to spank him in order to get him to stop. We were spanked as kids…correction BEAT and I didn’t want that for my child. What she suggested was getting a little wooden kitchen spoon and right his name on it, if he acted up just give him a whack and tell him why he was getting the whack.

So the next time he started to act up, I’d tell him to go and get his spoon which triggered what was coming next and that action stopped immediately. At 8 he tested my patience because,(his then step brother was a juvenile delinquent and daily disrespected me and his father) so my son wanted to test me. I had to admit I gave it to him good and told him why.

At 17 he said something out the pocket and I pull him by the back of his hair on his neck…the action stopped… My son is 22 years old and I’ve only had to spank him twice if you don’t count the hair pulling and he’s a wonderful, peaceful person. I think you can reason with children but there has to be knowledge to them that if they disobey there will be consequences. If that consequence is a spanking or taking away something is up to you. This is just what worked for my son.

119

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:

We also concern ourselves with the severity of the method. “Beating” is differentiated from “spanking”. A “time-out” is declared to be kinder than a “spanking”. I won’t tell you what my father used to call it, but it wasn’t a “spanking” and it wouldn’t have mattered to me whether it was a quick smack or the repeated whacking that I used to push him into with my willful, defiant disobedience.

[/quote]

Did the spanking make it less likely that you were going to do whatever you decided would be a good idea as a kid?
[/quote]

Very unlikely, and in fact I distinctly remember pushing him to do it which suggests it was reinforcing.

It was not abuse, it was what he thought he had to do and he learned that it was ineffective. I love and respect my father despite those mistakes, and I have made similar mistakes as a parent. There are many influences that a parent has on a child, and a parent is not the only influence on a child. The old man got a lot right, too.

This is one of the things that makes me dubious about big claims made about single things that parents might do. We know from experimental data that punishment (not just spanking) comes with a whole raft of problems, all of which parents who use it think won’t apply to them. And they might be right, because that’s not all they do (hopefully).[/quote]

I agree completely. I distinctly remember choosing to do things I knew would end up with a spanking and I think maybe the one thing I learned from it was sometimes you have to go through some pain to get what you want. I also remember instantly changing behaviors when there was positive reinforcement attached to something; I allegedly had no potty training period. On the other hand, positive reinforcement wasn’t as effective with my little brother, but he would do anything to avoid extra work. Based on this and experience with many other kids, I don’t think you can make a blanket statement that one thing makes or breaks the kid.