Corporal Punishment Study

Off Topic
41

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
The studies are showing correlation, not causation.

The authors of this also seem to be in the grips of some hardcore confirmation bias. There is a clear agenda here, and they found exactly what they were hoping to find.[/quote]

out of some 80 or more some such studies, not one as found to be positive.

why don’t you find a study that suggests positive outcomes?

i know, it’s a conspiracy of left leaning, hippy, vw van driving scientists, trying to trick us parents into not spanking our kids.

fucking mad scientists. [/quote]

There is definitely a correlation (I’ll take their word for it because I’m not reading 80 fucking studies) between spanking and all of the negatives outlined. It doesn’t prove causation, which is what they’re implying.

Since we’re giving each other homework, find a causative link between spanking and the negative outcomes mentioned in the article.

42

OK, to comply with Push’s request, I am smack-dab in the middle of raising four kids. Two daughters in college, a 14 year old daughter and a twelve year old son. I have to agree with BG here. I WAS spanked as a child, “and I’m OK”, and I intended to spank my children. My first didn’t like to disappoint us and, believe it or not, I never had to spank her. My second was total opposite. She tested us at every turn, and I spanked her often. I never felt very good about it, as it became a physical contest to see how much pain could she tolerate before I “won”. It felt more like a fight than a good parent disciplining his child out of love. What’s more, it DID NOT WORK. Her behavior did not change. After a particularly tense showdown when she was about eight or nine, I decided I was done. I stopped spanking, and started taking away the things she cared about the most. What a difference! It was never a showdown; there was simply a consequence to her action. Her behaviour was influenced in a positive way, and our relationship improved.

43

[quote]pushharder wrote:

“I have never directly raised any children so please accept my statements with it in mind that I am a theoretician and do not have field experience.”[/quote]

I’ll let you know how it turns out. Found out last week that my wife is 2mos. pregnant.

Yay!

44

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

“I have never directly raised any children so please accept my statements with it in mind that I am a theoretician and do not have field experience.”[/quote]

I’ll let you know how it turns out. Found out last week that my wife is 2mos. pregnant.

Yay!
[/quote]

Congrats! Based on what I have read on here you will make a great dad.

46

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
The studies are showing correlation, not causation.

The authors of this also seem to be in the grips of some hardcore confirmation bias. There is a clear agenda here, and they found exactly what they were hoping to find.[/quote]

out of some 80 or more some such studies, not one as found to be positive.

why don’t you find a study that suggests positive outcomes?

i know, it’s a conspiracy of left leaning, hippy, vw van driving scientists, trying to trick us parents into not spanking our kids.

fucking mad scientists. [/quote]

There is definitely a correlation (I’ll take their word for it because I’m not reading 80 fucking studies) between spanking and all of the negatives outlined. It doesn’t prove causation, which is what they’re implying.

Since we’re giving each other homework, find a causative link between spanking and the negative outcomes mentioned in the article.[/quote]

I don’t need the causative link. There are enough negatives (as outlined in some 80+ studies) whether causative or correlated that I’m satisfied AS A PARENT that there is a better way. I’ve never felt good about it the rare times I’ve done it and hopefully I will refrain from it in the future. I intend to find alternatives.

You do what you please with your children, and your pets. I don’t care. Honestly.

47

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

“I have never directly raised any children so please accept my statements with it in mind that I am a theoretician and do not have field experience.”[/quote]

I’ll let you know how it turns out. Found out last week that my wife is 2mos. pregnant.

Yay!
[/quote]

Congratulations sir. I hope everything goes smoothly with her pregnancy and the arrival.

48

By the way, this wasn’t intended to be a referendum on spanking. I could really care less what anyone else here thinks or does. I don’t care about a debate (I’m reformed) and I don’t care if you agree, disagree, see causation or correlation or if you send your kids to be babysat by Sandusky. I came across the article and since it’s been such a hot topic every time the subject of discipline comes up, I thought I’d share it because…when you stop thinking so highly of your OPINION and your personal experiences and biases, the article and the studies behind it constitute some actual knowledge. You can nitpick and dick around all you like about how they arrived at their conclusions until your heart’s content. It’s like anything else; if you find it useful, consider it. If not, discard it. I couldn’t care less what happened to you or what your opinion is. It’s just a subject near to my heart as I pretty much raise a 6 year old alone. A 6 year old that will, like any other, test his limitations and the limitation of my patience.

I’ll do what I do, you do what you do. Just know that I don’t care what you do, and I care about as much about your opinion as I care what you think of the sneakers I wore today.

49

[quote]polo77j wrote:
honestly, this whole causation/correlation argument is so nit-picky. Technically speaking, causation implies a population study while correlation implies a sample.

Since, in this case, a population study would consist of THE POPULATION, the numbers are just too damn large that no one has the resources (and I personally think the motivation) to collect such daunting numbers, that samples are pulled for the studies.

Now, you have to think, if they’re basing this article on 80 studies, that they’ve pulled enough data to get the sample as close to the population as anyone really wants to get it. Not to mention they’ve pretty much worked out most of the errors caused by biases within the data collection process in 80 studies.

Also, since they’re claiming what they’re claiming, I’m sure they’ve run countless (at least 80 amiright) hypothesis tests to which all (according to the article) have come out in favor of the hypothesis (i.e there is no data collected to render the hypothesis false).

I’m assuming these 80 studies they’re referring to aren’t done by the same 5 scientists and that the studies have been conducted by numerous reputable institutions by people who are more than well versed in processing data and running experiments. Hell, I’ll even go out on a limb and say a couple of these guys and gals might even have Ph.Ds!

We all know you’re not going to “peruse” 80 fucking studies. You’re certainly not going to pour over 80 studies worth of data (which would probably take you YEARS by the way … and let’s face it, this thread isn’t going to be in the top 10 pages of GAL, probably not even in the top 100 pages, by the time you’re done pouring over the data, running your own tests, only to report to us your findings). So, just admit that you really don’t have any logical reason to refute the findings that hundreds of people conducting 80 different studies and have all, more or less, come to same conclusion. You’re not going to find anything they missed. You’re not smarter than any number of doctors.

Just move on already.[/quote]

Very well said.

50

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

“I have never directly raised any children so please accept my statements with it in mind that I am a theoretician and do not have field experience.”[/quote]

I’ll let you know how it turns out. Found out last week that my wife is 2mos. pregnant.

Yay!
[/quote]

Congrats! Based on what I have read on here you will make a great dad.[/quote]

x2[/quote]

Thanks guys. And BG also, even though I didn’t quote you.

On the topic though, as a personal choice and in agreement with my wife, we are going to avoid spanking at all possible costs. Neither one of our experiences with it as a disciplinary tool while growing up was any good at all. Granted, our parents did the best they could with what they had, the fact of the matter is that spanking (more accurately beating) was the only tool they had.

And as the old adage goes- when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.

51

[quote]polo77j wrote:
honestly, this whole causation/correlation argument is so nit-picky. Technically speaking, causation implies a population study while correlation implies a sample.

Since, in this case, a population study would consist of THE POPULATION, the numbers are just too damn large that no one has the resources (and I personally think the motivation) to collect such daunting numbers, that samples are pulled for the studies.

Now, you have to think, if they’re basing this article on 80 studies, that they’ve pulled enough data to get the sample as close to the population as anyone really wants to get it. Not to mention they’ve pretty much worked out most of the errors caused by biases within the data collection process in 80 studies.

Also, since they’re claiming what they’re claiming, I’m sure they’ve run countless (at least 80 amiright) hypothesis tests to which all (according to the article) have come out in favor of the hypothesis (i.e there is no data collected to render the hypothesis false).

I’m assuming these 80 studies they’re referring to aren’t done by the same 5 scientists and that the studies have been conducted by numerous reputable institutions by people who are more than well versed in processing data and running experiments. Hell, I’ll even go out on a limb and say a couple of these guys and gals might even have Ph.Ds!

We all know you’re not going to “peruse” 80 fucking studies. You’re certainly not going to pour over 80 studies worth of data (which would probably take you YEARS by the way … and let’s face it, this thread isn’t going to be in the top 10 pages of GAL, probably not even in the top 100 pages, by the time you’re done pouring over the data, running your own tests, only to report to us your findings). So, just admit that you really don’t have any logical reason to refute the findings that hundreds of people conducting 80 different studies and have all, more or less, come to same conclusion. You’re not going to find anything they missed. You’re not smarter than any number of doctors.

Just move on already.[/quote]

You are right that I’m not going to peruse all 80 studies because I cannot even look at one of them because none of them are cited. They could all be made up for as much as anyone here knows. But I would genuinely like to see a few of them in case god forbid I ever slip one past the goalie.

52

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
You are right that I’m not going to peruse all 80 studies because I cannot even look at one of them because none of them are cited. They could all be made up for as much as anyone here knows. But I would genuinely like to see a few of them in case god forbid I ever slip one past the goalie.[/quote]

The link lists two of the authors, the journal you can find it in AND the week it was published.

I’m not even going to throw out a condescending remark about what you hope to slip past the goalie if you can’t even find the net with directions to the rink.

53

[quote]polo77j wrote:
honestly, this whole causation/correlation argument is so nit-picky. Technically speaking, causation implies a population study while correlation implies a sample.

Since, in this case, a population study would consist of THE POPULATION, the numbers are just too damn large that no one has the resources (and I personally think the motivation) to collect such daunting numbers, that samples are pulled for the studies.

Now, you have to think, if they’re basing this article on 80 studies, that they’ve pulled enough data to get the sample as close to the population as anyone really wants to get it. Not to mention they’ve pretty much worked out most of the errors caused by biases within the data collection process in 80 studies.

Also, since they’re claiming what they’re claiming, I’m sure they’ve run countless (at least 80 amiright) hypothesis tests to which all (according to the article) have come out in favor of the hypothesis (i.e there is no data collected to render the hypothesis false).

I’m assuming these 80 studies they’re referring to aren’t done by the same 5 scientists and that the studies have been conducted by numerous reputable institutions by people who are more than well versed in processing data and running experiments. Hell, I’ll even go out on a limb and say a couple of these guys and gals might even have Ph.Ds!

We all know you’re not going to “peruse” 80 fucking studies. You’re certainly not going to pour over 80 studies worth of data (which would probably take you YEARS by the way … and let’s face it, this thread isn’t going to be in the top 10 pages of GAL, probably not even in the top 100 pages, by the time you’re done pouring over the data, running your own tests, only to report to us your findings). So, just admit that you really don’t have any logical reason to refute the findings that hundreds of people conducting 80 different studies and have all, more or less, come to same conclusion. You’re not going to find anything they missed. You’re not smarter than any number of doctors.

Just move on already.[/quote]

Cool story bro.

54

Here is a really cool Youtube-video explaining the effects of spanking/corporal punishment and the pro’s/ con’s

here are the references The Facts about Spanking - Freedomain – The no. 1 philosophy show online

55

[quote]Erasmus wrote:
Here is a really cool Youtube-video explaining the effects of spanking/corporal punishment and the pro’s/ con’s

here are the references The Facts about Spanking - Freedomain – The no. 1 philosophy show online

[/quote]

Hmmmm
I always thought the reason why there was no physical violence among my siblings and I was because I was an awesome big sister. I guess it was the no spanking. :-/

56

[quote]Dr J wrote:
OK, to comply with Push’s request, I am smack-dab in the middle of raising four kids. Two daughters in college, a 14 year old daughter and a twelve year old son. I have to agree with BG here. I WAS spanked as a child, “and I’m OK”, and I intended to spank my children. My first didn’t like to disappoint us and, believe it or not, I never had to spank her. My second was total opposite. She tested us at every turn, and I spanked her often. I never felt very good about it, as it became a physical contest to see how much pain could she tolerate before I “won”. It felt more like a fight than a good parent disciplining his child out of love. What’s more, it DID NOT WORK. Her behavior did not change. After a particularly tense showdown when she was about eight or nine, I decided I was done. I stopped spanking, and started taking away the things she cared about the most. What a difference! It was never a showdown; there was simply a consequence to her action. Her behaviour was influenced in a positive way, and our relationship improved. [/quote]

Excellent post. Smart parenting.

57

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

“I have never directly raised any children so please accept my statements with it in mind that I am a theoretician and do not have field experience.”[/quote]

I’ll let you know how it turns out. Found out last week that my wife is 2mos. pregnant.

Yay!
[/quote]

Congrats! Based on what I have read on here you will make a great dad.[/quote]

x2[/quote]

Thanks guys. And BG also, even though I didn’t quote you.

On the topic though, as a personal choice and in agreement with my wife, we are going to avoid spanking at all possible costs. Neither one of our experiences with it as a disciplinary tool while growing up was any good at all. Granted, our parents did the best they could with what they had, the fact of the matter is that spanking (more accurately beating) was the only tool they had.

And as the old adage goes- when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.

[/quote]

Congrats and I concur you will make a great dad.

FWIW the non spanking route is also the one we have taken, although that is not how I was raised. I was a very strong willed child, which meant when my mom would smack me I would just smile and when my dad whipped me (sometimes drawing blood) I asked him if that made him feel like a man, to be able to beat a child. The last time he beat me at around age 12-13 he got me in the ballsack with the belt, and I guess he couldn’t stand the screams.

My first child is very much like me and I will confess to have wanted to spank her at times, but that just confirms to me I am reacting out of anger, not as a parenting tool. It is much more effective to me to attach consequences to her actions. Took a while to figure that out.

In full disclosure to Push, I am mid stream in raising my children. I’m glad you have a wonderful daughter, just keep in mind sometimes we grow into who we are in spite of our parents, not because of them.

58

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]Dr J wrote:
OK, to comply with Push’s request, I am smack-dab in the middle of raising four kids. Two daughters in college, a 14 year old daughter and a twelve year old son. I have to agree with BG here. I WAS spanked as a child, “and I’m OK”, and I intended to spank my children. My first didn’t like to disappoint us and, believe it or not, I never had to spank her. My second was total opposite. She tested us at every turn, and I spanked her often. I never felt very good about it, as it became a physical contest to see how much pain could she tolerate before I “won”. It felt more like a fight than a good parent disciplining his child out of love. What’s more, it DID NOT WORK. Her behavior did not change. After a particularly tense showdown when she was about eight or nine, I decided I was done. I stopped spanking, and started taking away the things she cared about the most. What a difference! It was never a showdown; there was simply a consequence to her action. Her behaviour was influenced in a positive way, and our relationship improved. [/quote]

Excellent post. Smart parenting.[/quote]

x2

Even if it works initially, it will ALWAYS stop working eventually. The age when it stops working will vary from child to child.

59

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
You are right that I’m not going to peruse all 80 studies because I cannot even look at one of them because none of them are cited. They could all be made up for as much as anyone here knows. But I would genuinely like to see a few of them in case god forbid I ever slip one past the goalie.[/quote]

The link lists two of the authors, the journal you can find it in AND the week it was published.

I’m not even going to throw out a condescending remark about what you hope to slip past the goalie if you can’t even find the net with directions to the rink.[/quote]

I had no problem finding the CMAJ website but I did not purchase a subscription to see if in fact all the studies were cited. I found enough free resources to read.

60

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]Dr J wrote:
OK, to comply with Push’s request, I am smack-dab in the middle of raising four kids. Two daughters in college, a 14 year old daughter and a twelve year old son. I have to agree with BG here. I WAS spanked as a child, “and I’m OK”, and I intended to spank my children. My first didn’t like to disappoint us and, believe it or not, I never had to spank her. My second was total opposite. She tested us at every turn, and I spanked her often. I never felt very good about it, as it became a physical contest to see how much pain could she tolerate before I “won”. It felt more like a fight than a good parent disciplining his child out of love. What’s more, it DID NOT WORK. Her behavior did not change. After a particularly tense showdown when she was about eight or nine, I decided I was done. I stopped spanking, and started taking away the things she cared about the most. What a difference! It was never a showdown; there was simply a consequence to her action. Her behaviour was influenced in a positive way, and our relationship improved. [/quote]

Excellent post. Smart parenting.[/quote]

x2

Even if it works initially, it will ALWAYS stop working eventually. The age when it stops working will vary from child to child.[/quote]

You’re trolling right?

“ALWAYS”.