Coronavirus - What Happened?

[Legalsteel]

@loppar

1500 years before that the odds were even more brutal - Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius had one child (future Emperor Commodus) survive infancy out of SEVENTEEN children. No wonder he focused so much on stoic philosophy.

Trust our luck that the worst one lived.

[zecarlo]

I believe James Joyce blamed the Catholic Church’s position on birth control for his mother’s early death. She was in her early 40s and had given birth to twelve children, not all of whom survived infancy.

[Legalsteel]

@zecarlo

I believe James Joyce blamed the Catholic Church’s position on birth control for his mother’s early death. She was in her early 40s and had given birth to twelve children, not all of whom survived infancy

That was certainly a factor. The fact that Ireland was a 3rd world economy with dreadful living standards was another.

Our infant mortality is now extremely low, but birth control (and recently abortion) is now legal and available.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-vsar/vsar2014/imsm/

The above tracks it quite well. We had a precipitous drop in maternal and infant mortality.

Also, when you compare it to the GDP per capita in Ireland, there’s a very close correlation between the two.

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IRL/ireland/gdp-gross-domestic-product

[chris_ottawa]

@lucasmon

I think the conspiracy is not that he wants to kill but, bring down the population through “vaccines”, “reproductive health services”, etc. that are in fact means of sterilization/ depopulation, specifically in less developed countries. Which does not sound that terrible.

People believe all sorts of things, there isn’t only one theory. And I have heard people say the same thing as you, that sterilizing the third world isn’t a bad thing, but what gives him the right to do that? Overpopulation is only a problem when there aren’t enough resources and there is too much pollution, so why eliminate the people who consume the least resources and have the least industries in their countries? Seems more like rich people are the problem.

@H_factor

Of course this is just what they said. I’m sure behind closed doors they both laughed maniacally and said “I bet these people buy it. Then in a few years we unleash the coronavirus and make the vaccine and we will have billions of dollars finally.

I don’t see why you want to argue with me about things like this, I was just trying to explain where people got these ideas in the first place. I don’t know what Bill Gates is really trying to achieve, but I don’t believe everything people say either.

@H_factor

Is it really likely China and Bill Gates are conspiring. To what exactly and what end?

Well, I don’t claim to know what is going on behind closed doors but he was saying that China was providing accurate data and being transparent (I figured because Gates was vouching for them it must be true) and next thing you know China even admitted they lied about COVID numbers and such. And China and Gates are two of the main contributors to the WHO, which is pro-China and takes orders from Gates. I don’t know what they are trying to accomplish and I’m not into fantasizing about things and imagining that they are real, but the Chinese government is dangerous so I don’t trust anyone who is mixed up with them.

@H_factor

How is a theory formed on being misinformed with misinterpreted facts rational?

There is a rational explanation for how people came to a wrong conclusion, as opposed to just imagining complete nonsense for no apparent reason.

@zecarlo

You think it wasn’t about money for him?

Only he can answer that, and he will probably lie one way or another.

[zecarlo]

@Legalsteel

The fact that Ireland was a 3rd world economy with dreadful living standards was another.

This is off topic, but I have shown my students documentaries on immigration including the Irish who came during the famine. Do you think it should be considered an act of genocide? I never considered that possibility until I had to research it a bit when preparing to teach it and learned that there is a movement to get it considered a genocide. I find myself being persuaded to agree.

[zecarlo]

@chris_ottawa

what gives him the right to do that?

Why ask a question about something he never asked for?

@chris_ottawa

Overpopulation is only a problem when there aren’t enough resources and there is too much pollution, so why eliminate the people who consume the least resources and have the least industries in their countries?

Because it has a lot do with infant mortality and quality of life.

@chris_ottawa

Only he can answer that, and he will probably lie one way or another.

Hint: With Trump, it’s always about money.

[Legalsteel]

@zecarlo

Do you think it should be considered an act of genocide? I never considered that possibility until I had to research it a bit when preparing to teach it and learned that there is a movement to get it considered a genocide. I find myself being persuaded to agree.

I’m not quite sure how I feel about it, to be honest. Do I think there was a deliberate plot to exterminate the Irish? No. Was there a series of active policy and years worth of policy failures (with a serious element of sectarian bigotry) that made the famine so deadly? Absolutely. Was there a concerted and intentional plot by the British government to wipe Irish Catholics off the face of the earth? Probably not.

There were some who attempted to do something about it, Robert Peel split his party to repeal the corn laws, and some of Swift’s most devastating satire was aimed at the Laissez-faire “rationalists” of the time (anyone who has ever read Gulliver’s travels would know about what Swift thought of such people.)

There are certainly figures for whom a case of attempted Genocide would be fair, such as Trevalyan:

"“The judgment of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated . . . the real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.”

I’m only scratching the surface here, and the debate in Ireland is, even now, a hot topic. for my money, it was gross negligence leading to mass death, with some good and bad actors tossed into the mix. But I’m no scholar of the subject, and this is layman’s assessment.

Edit: You really gave me a head scratcher today.

Edit 2: That said, I’m amenable to arguments either way, I suppose the only thing I’m missing would be some missive like the minutes of the Wansee conference. Certainly based on effects alone, it ranks as one of the ugliest periods in European history.

[H_factor]

@chris_ottawa

I don’t see why you want to argue with me about things like this, I was just trying to explain where people got these ideas in the first place. I don’t know what Bill Gates is really trying to achieve, but I don’t believe everything people say either.

The thing is throughout this thread you’ve at the minimum flirted with a few conspiracy theories. Then when you’re called out it’s hey I wasn’t saying I buy into it. Just saying I’m not sure what Gates is up to. He could be up to no good! I don’t know what Bill Gates is trying to achieve anymore than I know what you’re trying to achieve. But I’m not concluding that you have nefarious intent with the Coronavirus because why would I start with that idea? Why start with well we don’t know what Gates or Soro are doing, but I don’t trust liberals with wealth anyways so they definitely could be up to no good.

@chris_ottawa

Well, I don’t claim to know what is going on behind closed doors but he was saying that China was providing accurate data and being transparent (I figured because Gates was vouching for them it must be true) and next thing you know China even admitted they lied about COVID numbers and such.

I read this as he was wrong. If someone is wrong about something are they colluding to profit off a virus? Trump has praised China many times. Is Trump in on it? When he runs China down is that just providing cover? Was the trade war faked so they could pull this con?

@chris_ottawa

There is a rational explanation for how people came to a wrong conclusion, as opposed to just imagining complete nonsense for no apparent reason.

Not really. Look at how you came to your conclusions. “Gates wants people to die he said it!” That’s bullshit you didn’t do any homework. If people come to irrational conclusions because they don’t verify facts they are still irrational conclusions and thinking. You have to invent a lot of things to come to the conclusion Gates spread coronavirus or something so he could profit off a vaccine. You have to invent a lot of things. When you need to add multiple things together to come to a flimsy at best conclusion that’s not being rational.

“Gates has money! He’s invested in vaccines! He’s been to China! Coronavirus was started in China! He visited Wuhan 8 years ago! He worked with China on a health issue! Gates and China created Coronavirus for money!!! Gates said he wants people dead! This satisfies both his goals of being super rich and killing people!”

[everybodygetsone]

Off topic, but I was curious what others can report. Here is NYS, gyms are speculated to reopen in Phase 3 or possible 4 (mid-late June). Any other members where gyms are open:

1. Is there an occupancy limit?
2. If you typically workout at 5pm for example, do you have to wait until 6 if there is an occupancy limit?
3. Does anybody have to schedule workout times online?
4. Are workout times limited (i.e. 1 hour)?

[lucasmon]

@chris_ottawa

@lucasmon

I think the conspiracy is not that he wants to kill but, bring down the population through “vaccines”, “reproductive health services”, etc. that are in fact means of sterilization/ depopulation, specifically in less developed countries. Which does not sound that terrible.

People believe all sorts of things, there isn’t only one theory. And I have heard people say the same thing as you, that sterilizing the third world isn’t a bad thing, but what gives him the right to do that? Overpopulation is only a problem when there aren’t enough resources and there is too much pollution, so why eliminate the people who consume the least resources and have the least industries in their countries? Seems more like rich people are the problem.

It is not only about overpopulation. The idea is that as the world moves forward what do the those countries, specifically those people have to offer. Why are they underdeveloped?..Generally lower IQ, etc.

**This is what I have read lets not start a whole race thing.

[chris_ottawa]

@zecarlo

Because it has a lot do with infant mortality and quality of life.

Is it better to live and suffer or never to live at all? And does Bill Gates get to decide that for you? If you don’t think life is worth living for poor people in third world countries then why aren’t they all killing themselves? They seem to value their lives.

@H_factor

Then when you’re called out it’s hey I wasn’t saying I buy into it.

The whole thing is that when I jumped back into this thread the other day it was to explain how the theories you were talking about came to exist. I don’t see why that’s so hard for you to understand.

@H_factor

I read this as he was wrong. If someone is wrong about something are they colluding to profit off a virus? Trump has praised China many times. Is Trump in on it? When he runs China down is that just providing cover? Was the trade war faked so they could pull this con?

Yeah he was wrong, but him and China both hold a lot of influence in the WHO and are two of the main donors while Trump was talking about cutting off funding.

@H_factor

If people come to irrational conclusions because they don’t verify facts they are still irrational conclusions and thinking.

It’s all semantics. The bottom line is that they were wrong, but there was something based on actual facts, however loosely, that lead to their conclusions. Whether you want to call that irrational or insane or whatever makes little difference, they were simply misinformed or mislead.

@lucasmon

It is not only about overpopulation. The idea is that as the world moves forward what do the those countries, specifically those people have to offer. Why are they underdeveloped?..Generally lower IQ, etc.

**This is what I have read lets not start a whole race thing.

Let’s talk about eugenics and sterilizing people in third world countries but not start a “whole race thing”. OK there.

[H_factor]

@chris_ottawa

Yeah he was wrong, but him and China both hold a lot of influence in the WHO and are two of the main donors while Trump was talking about cutting off funding.

Bill Gates holds lots of influence because he is insanely wealthy. The side you’re aligned to is obsessed with cutting taxes for people like him. Bill Gates become a right wing target because he disagreed with Trump. And when you do that the conspiracy theories come out. Faucci became a deep state operative the moment he corrected Trump. Align with Trump on any and everything and you aren’t a target. Disagree or correct his wrong thinking? Time to dig and create theories about how it’s yet another person trying to invalidate the 2016 election or something stupid.

@chris_ottawa

It’s all semantics. The bottom line is that they were wrong, but there was something based on actual facts, however loosely, that lead to their conclusions. Whether you want to call that irrational or insane or whatever makes little difference, they were simply misinformed or mislead.

That’s how conspiracy theories work though. The vast majority aren’t completely like rainbow unicorns invented Coronavirus. It is people with little critical thinking skills and intellectually lazy people who buy into them. They start under the assumption that something has to be fishy. Not that something probably isn’t fishy. And where you start matters a lot.

Things based on actual facts are still irrational and insane when they are simply a connection of a variety of facts. See my scenario above. Those things may all be facts. But adding those facts up and concluding that China and Gates are conspiring is what’s nuts. It’s a series of things that are true glued together.

[lucasmon]

Healthcare Workers

Scenario 5:

Current Best Estimate

Symptomatic Case Fatality Ratio: Current Best Estimate Overall: 0.004%

Symptomatic Case Hospitalization Ratio: Overall: 0.034%

Percent of infections that are asymptomatic: 35%

[lucasmon]

@chris_ottawa

Let’s talk about eugenics and sterilizing people in third world countries but not start a “whole race thing”. OK there.

Because it does not stop there, it is just easier to start in underdeveloped countries already receiving “aid”.

[zecarlo]

The thing is, that’s somewhat manageable. The question I, and many others have, is what about martial arts gyms where social distancing is not possible.

[zecarlo]

@chris_ottawa

Is it better to live and suffer or never to live at all?

This is a nonsensical question since one cannot experience the latter.

@chris_ottawa

why aren’t they all killing themselves?

They read Camus?

@chris_ottawa

They seem to value their lives.

So does Bill Gates.

[zecarlo]

@lucasmon

Generally lower IQ, etc.

**This is what I have read lets not start a whole race thing.

If you read the source for that, you would know that they didn’t actually give IQ tests.

@lucasmon

Why are they underdeveloped?..Generally lower IQ,

It is more likely, if IQs are lower, that it is a result of poverty and not the cause. The Irish and Sicilians are examples of this.

[lucasmon]

@zecarlo

If you read the source for that, you would know that they didn’t actually give IQ tests.

Source material for IQ WRT to conspiracy or IQ ranking themselves? If IQ, what ranking are you referring to?

[zecarlo]

The IQ numbers for some African and other third world nations. Those numbers all come from one source.

[lucasmon]

What source? As far as I know the work of Richard Flynn and David Becker both used scores based off of testing.