Just wanted to add something to the discussion…
Hezboallah and Hamas launch rockets from within neighborhoods and other populated areas.
These are NOT fixed sites out in the desert somewhere.
The IDF is then forced to bomb AREAS of rocket launch concentration, which almost always are within populated areas.
Mufasa
Question:
Why are those “Great Diplomats” in Damascus always left out of these discussions?
(Damascus IS the Sunni side of the equation, with MILLIONS being funneled in AND out of Iraq in support of the Sunni Insurgency…)
Mufasa
Almost forgot…My “solutions”
(Will take a National Will not seen since WW-II, and a TOTAL Paradigm Shift in the “Energy Economy”)
Diplomacy
Continued strengthening of our Military
Will all this happen?
Probably not…
Mufasa
I read some of the links and all that’s a just a pant’s load. By Ahmina-jihad’s own reasoning, his regime is destined to collapse.
We support Israel because they are the only real democracy in the Middle East, except now for Iraq. Why the hell wouldn’t we support them?
Its true that the Iraq war is a cluster fuck, with all the PC bullshit our guys have to do so as to not offend the terrorists.
Best solution: quarantine the whole damn area and let 'em kill each other. They’ll get to meet Allah sooner that way.
“Israel is a democracy” is actually a myth.
What other “democracy” in the world discriminates legally (according to their laws) based on ethnicity?
Try preaching about Jesus in Israel. Know what would happen? Automatic 4 years in prison.
Israel a democracy? My ass it is.
The equivalent would be if here in America the government owned most of the land/housing in the country and gave first digs to whites (in everything, not just housing), with blacks and latinos scrapping for the left-overs.
[quote]jumper wrote:
Hey Justtheantisemite, excuse me, I mean Justthefacts, you know as well as I do the president of Iran refuses to acknowledge the holocaust and has threatened the extinction of the Jews[/quote]
So what? People in the southern US do the same thing. I don’t give a shit. I live right here on the east coast and I’m not the least bit afraid of Iran. At other times he’s stated that he respects Jews and acknowledged the possibility of the Holocaust. At any rate, he’s an Iranian patriot who doesn’t take shit from other countries. You have to understand how international politics work.
[quote]jumper wrote:
when he is capable he will attempt it,[/quote]
He won’t attempt anything if there’s a deterrence in place, which there already is in the form of Israel’s nukes. Now, all that’s needed to stabilize the region is for Iran to get nukes and even the balance of power.
This is basic geopolitical strategy and, to my knowledge, it has yet to be contradicted. Please let me know if I’m wrong. Point out a sovereign nation that has undertaken a suicidal and pointless attack against another power. Just one such example will do.
[quote]jumper wrote:
The Isrealis do not target civilians, the other guys do, and you know this.[/quote]
That depends entirely on who you ask. I could very well write the opposite of those statements and back it up with any number of sources.
[quote]jumper wrote:
The Isrealis would love to live in peace with the Arab world, but they can’t, they have to fight for there own existense over there. You know as well as I do the Arabs are not to honor any peace agreements with the “non-believer”, they won’t do it, they are forbidden to.[/quote]
If China declared it’s right to a 100-sq. mile chunk of land in the Midwest, would the U.S. citizens living there be willing to “live in peace”? Tell me this: At one point did the Arabs fail to honor the treaty which they signed, allowing Jews to live in their land? Or was there ever such a treaty?
Regardless, it’s a regional issue. U.S. has no business there. The conflict will continue until one side wipes out the other - pretty simple. That’s how things get solved in international affairs. Know why the Aztecs aren’t all over the Mexican government’s shit for it’s unlawful occupation of their territories? Because they’re all dead, that’s why.
Laws grow out the barrel of a gun. That’s how the world works. Somebody’s gonna get raped. If we pull out now we can make sure it’s not America.
[quote]jumper wrote:
While the Iranians celebrated in the streets on 911 burning our flag, while 3000 of our brothers and sisters, CIVILIANS, burned, the Irealis wept and prayed for us.[/quote]
Wrong. The Iranians weren’t the ones celebrating in the streets. There was mourning and sympathy for the US in that country, too.
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm
[quote]jumper wrote:
They chant death to America and Isreal in the streets and then when they don’t follow international law and the powerless international community does nothing, we have to, because we cannot afford to have 911s anymore. [/quote]
Once again, the Iranians haven’t been the ones chanting in their streets, and they’re following international law just fine. They are operating legally under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Leave Iran alone and go back to watching football. An invasion of that country would not be as easy as the one in Iraq. They have modern Russian weaponry and are capable of giving us and the Israeli’s a decent amount of trouble if we go in. Quite possibly shoot down another one of our stealth fighters with their new TOR-1M air defense system imported from Russia.
Want to see this again?
http://www.serbnews.com/f117/f117_2.jpg
ok state, reckless, ken, dustin, jtf:
You’ve offered nothing constructive on this thread. Either offer up some solutions, or return to your hole.
As for everyone else, I may disagree with some of the suggestions. However, unlike afore mentioned nitwits, at least you are willing to think through the issue.
Criticism without alternatives is hot air.
Thanks,
JeffR
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
jumper wrote:
So what? People in the southern US do the same thing. I don’t give a shit. I live right here on the east coast and I’m not the least bit afraid of Iran. At other times he’s stated that he respects Jews and acknowledged the possibility of the Holocaust. At any rate, he’s an Iranian patriot who doesn’t take shit from other countries. You have to understand how international politics work.
[/quote]
People in the southern U.S. do what asshole?
You’ve already showed tremendous ignorance, so I don’t know why I am bothering, but see the 6 day war. Israel wouldn’t have occupied shit it they were not attcked.
If we pull out now Iraq will be a cesspool of terrorist activity. One of the terrorist’s main objectives is to attack the U.S.Everybody else seems to know this simple fact.
That’s right it was the peaceful and loving palistinians who did this. This despite the fact that it is because of the U.S. the occupied terrories did not become plain old Israel.
No they are not. But I aggree there is nothing we can do about it and they know it.
[quote]
Leave Iran alone and go back to watching football. An invasion of that country would not be as easy as the one in Iraq. They have modern Russian weaponry and are capable of giving us and the Israeli’s a decent amount of trouble if we go in. Quite possibly shoot down another one of our stealth fighters with their new TOR-1M air defense system imported from Russia.
Want to see this again?
http://www.serbnews.com/f117/f117_2.jpg[/quote]
Bullshit, we still have to keep presure on them. The purpose of which is to not let them maneauver in secret, but expose everything they are doing for full visability. Nobody wants Iran to become the dominant power in the ME, least of all the rest of the ME.
It would be flat idiotic to ignore them and give them carte blance. They would do something stupid and deadly if we did.
Thanks for your rivoting comentary, I need ed the ego boost.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Most conflicts are in fact stupid or started from stupid reasons. The palistinians are worth pissing on either, but we put up with their crap none the less. Actually more people are dying because we (the U.S. and allies) are trying to find an amicable solution for both sides. I say let them duke it out. It wasn’t palistinian land prior to 1967 any damn way so really thay are ahead of the game as it is. But alas, the palstinians do not want their own land, they want thier own land with Jeruselum as it’s capitol. That’s why none of this “Road map to Peace” crap will ever work. The Palistinians don’t want any old piece of dirt, they want the piece of dirt named Jesruselem as they belive it is their divine right.
Again, let them duke it out fair and square, who ever wins the war gets the land, just as it has always been through out history.
I don’t see any evidence that they directely target civilians. They certainly won’t let civilians get in the way of a mission. They are a bit more ruthless than the U.S., but of course every inch of their borders are occupied by people who hate them and want them dead and gone, so I can’t say I would be anyless ruthless. I do hate to see innocent people die no matte what. But it pisses me off way more when the target is innocent people. I concider that different. The palistinians target civilains directely. Actually, they often avoid military targets to get to the civilians. That’s pretty fuckin’ dirty too. Justifying terrorism because “Israel done bad things too” is stupid. Two wrongs don’t make a right.[/quote]
It is UNBELIEVABLE one person could be so wrong about a single issue. You have NOT A SINGLE CLUE how lopsided the Israel/Palestinian conflict is.
Amnesty: ISRAEL AND THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES
In addition to the loss of life on both sides, Palestinians throughout the Occupied Territories have suffered a plethora of other human rights abuses. Israeli forces have destroyed thousands of Palestinian homes, vast areas of cultivated land and much crucial civilian infrastructure, including electricity power plants, roads, bridges and water, sewage and telephone networks. Ever increasing restrictions imposed on the movements of Palestinians and of goods, within as well as in and out of the Occupied Territories, have made any semblance of normal life impossible.
Hundreds of military checkpoints and blockades, and a fence/wall being built by Israel throughout the West Bank despite being declared unlawful by the International Court of Justice, increasingly hinder or prevent Palestinian access to their land, places of work, schools, hospitals and other medical facilities.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde150932006
Death on the beach: seven Palestinians killed as Israeli shells hit family picnic
The shells that hit Beit Lahia beach were the latest of more than 6,000 fired into the Gaza Strip by Israel over the past two months.
Human Rights Watch: Caterpillar Should Suspend Bulldozer Sales to Israel - Weaponized Bulldozers Used to Destroy Civilian Property and Infrastructure
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/22/isrlpa9711.htm
Report: Bombing of Gaza power plant war crime
The B’Tselem organization has determined that the IDF operation was illegal and that according to international humanitarian law it is deemed a war crime as it constitutes an attack on a clear civilian target, as well as being “a banned collective punishment.”
U.S. to pay $48 million to cover damages to Gaza power station
http://www.missourileadership.com/story/2006/7/3/91430/67089
But I suppose the real issue is that EVERYBODY is a lying anti-semite – Jimmy Carter, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, United Nations, B’Tselem, Jews Against the Occupation, etc, etc…
http://www.jatonyc.org/
[quote]pat36 wrote:
No, it was the Palistinians who celebrated in the streets the day after 9/11. There was a breif moment of solidarity between the poeple of Iran and U.S. citizens. But I doubt very seriously 99% are prowestern. The Islamic revolotion and subsequent hostage taking in 1979, pretty much insured a permanent rift between the U.S. and Iran. I am pretty sure, most Iranians hate our guts.
[/quote]
Ah yes, who could forget the “celebration” on 9/11…
[i]"three of these guys [Israelis] were seen on the morning of September 11, just after the first plane hit the North Tower, quote-unquote, “celebrating” on the New Jersey waterfront. Now, that’s – I put the quotes around that, because it comes from a FBI BOLO, or “be on lookout,” an alert that was put out regarding these men that day…
…they actually told the FBI that the reason they were celebrating was because the attacks would be beneficial to Israel, that it was, quote, “a good thing for Israel” – that’s according to the FBI spokesman who spoke on the record about this – and that it would bring sympathy for Israel’s political agenda in the Middle East."[/i]
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/08/1610254
FIVE MEN DETAINED AS SUSPECTED CONSPIRATORS
New Jersey Bergen Record
September 12, 2001
Eight hours after terrorists struck Manhattan’s tallest skyscrapers, police in Bergen County detained five men who they said were found carrying maps linking them to the blasts.
sources close to the investigation said they found other evidence linking the men to the bombing plot. “There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted,” the source said. “It looked like they’re hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park…”
State police Col. Barry W. Roberson confirmed the traffic stop at a late night news briefing at state police headquarters in Trenton…
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/forget.html
Actual newspaper scan of Bergen Record - September 12, 2001
U.S. arrests of Israelis a mystery
Associated Press
December 17, 2001
Five of the Israelis came to the FBI’s attention after they were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/arrested_israelis.html
The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested On 9-11
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html
DEA Report: Suspicious Activities Involving Israeli Art Students at DEA Facilities
http://www.911-strike.com/dea-il-spy.htm
[quote]OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
…Try preaching about Jesus in Israel. Know what would happen? Automatic 4 years in prison.
…[/quote]
Please clarify this as I know more than one person that has done this very thing.
jumper wrote:
Hey Justtheantisemite, excuse me, I mean Justthefacts, you know as well as I do the president of Iran refuses to acknowledge the holocaust and has threatened the extinction of the Jews
“So what? People in the southern US do the same thing. I don’t give a shit. I live right here on the east coast and I’m not the least bit afraid of Iran. At other times he’s stated that he respects Jews and acknowledged the possibility of the Holocaust. At any rate, he’s an Iranian patriot who doesn’t take shit from other countries. You have to understand how international politics work”
Interesting theory:
People in the southern states don’t recognize the holocaust and are threatening to exterminate the Jews. WOW! Where did you get this news? Please I have to know, I live in the southern states and haven’t heard of this.
I would go in further detail about the stupidity your grand intellectual theory, but I think you say it pretty well yourself and if I laugh any harder I will piss my pants.
[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
It is UNBELIEVABLE one person could be so wrong about a single issue.
[/quote]
That’s true, but don’t fret there is hope for you yet. The truth shall set you free.
But unfortunately, you’re not wrong on one issue, you’re wrong on many. You’ll learn my young padawan. Much fear in you I sense.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
…Try preaching about Jesus in Israel. Know what would happen? Automatic 4 years in prison.
…
Please clarify this as I know more than one person that has done this very thing.[/quote]
I think he meant Saudi Arabia. There is a pretty decent sized Christian poplulation in Israel. There is not a single living Christian in Saudi Arabia.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
…Try preaching about Jesus in Israel. Know what would happen? Automatic 4 years in prison.
…
Please clarify this as I know more than one person that has done this very thing.
I think he meant Saudi Arabia. There is a pretty decent sized Christian poplulation in Israel. There is not a single living Christian in Saudi Arabia.[/quote]
You know Irsreal and Saudi Arabia are basically the same, right? I am going to go out on a limb and say the preaching about Jesus thing in Isreal thing is false, since I know plenty of christian groups who have journeyed there. Did he just make up a lie or does he get this crap somewhere?
[quote]JeffR wrote:
ok state, reckless, ken, dustin, jtf:
You’ve offered nothing constructive on this thread. Either offer up some solutions, or return to your hole.
Thanks,
JeffR[/quote]
You didn’t read any of the links I provided or watch any of the clips did you?
Don’t be intellectually lazy and then tell me I’ve not offered anything to the discussion. I could sit here and copy and paste sources all night showing how lopsided the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is or how the Bush administration is treasonous by selling us out for Israeli causes. You’d still ignore them and call me a nazi.
To answer your questions:
The U.S. is in no condition to start anything with Iran. They are not a threat to the U.S. or Israel. But, if they were, negotiations would be our best bet considering how thin our military is being stretched. There are individuals who have been deployed to Iraq numerous (3 or 4) times. That’s a pace our military can not keep up.
Russia is not a threat either. I’m not sure why that was even mentioned initially.
A slow withdrawal from Iraq needs to start tomorrow. In the mean time, divide Iraq into 3 provinces/states for the Sunni’s, Shia’s, and Kurds. If that doesn’t work, I don’t care because the military will be gone by then.
Dustin
Christian groups can travel to Israel and often do because the Israeli tourist industry makes a lot of money off of them through carefully managed tours. However, when they stray and go off by themselves they run into trouble. I remember reading an article about the Christians who were attacked by a group of Orthodox Jews after wandering into an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood simply because they were Christian.
The law about preaching about Jesus in on the books. Automatic four years. Ask any Hasidic or Orthodox Jew what their Talmud says about Jesus (hint: it says he is “boiling in semen in hell” and was the “son of a whore”).
Christians are treated well in Israel? hahahaha. Why is it common practice for Orthodox and Hasidic Jews to spit on Christians there? Ask the Christian residents of Bethlehem (a town that was under military curfew for over 100 days last year for no reason by the criminal Israeli army- actually there was a reason- they want to force the residents to leave) how the Israelis treat them.
From an article I’ve linked below:
Archbishop Manougian says he and his colleagues have already learned to live with the spitting. “I no longer get worked up by Jews who turn around and spit when I pass them by in the street; but to approach in the middle of a religious procession and to spit on the cross in front of all the priests of the sect is humiliation that we are not prepared to accept,” he said.
“The Israeli government is anti-Christian,” Manougian added. “It cries out in the face of any harm done to Jews all over the world, but is simply not interested at all when we are humiliated on an almost daily basis.”
Fucking hypocrites.
To be fair on the spitting thing, I’ve been told by Jewish friends who have visited that being less orthodox jewish is sufficient if you’re in the ultra-orthodox neighborhood. There’s quite a bit of tension between the different (Jewish) communities over religious issues.
[quote]OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
The law about preaching about Jesus in on the books. Automatic four years. [/quote]
Interesting law - show us where it is on the books.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
People in the southern U.S. do what asshole? [/quote]
Say some of the same things as Ahmadinejad; what do you think?
[quote]pat36 wrote:
You’ve already showed tremendous ignorance, so I don’t know why I am bothering, but see the 6 day war. Israel wouldn’t have occupied shit it they were not attcked.
[/quote]
Yeah, and I suppose that goes for Palestine as well, huh?
[quote]pat36 wrote:
If we pull out now Iraq will be a cesspool of terrorist activity. One of the terrorist’s main objectives is to attack the U.S.Everybody else seems to know this simple fact.[/quote]
No, if we pull out Iraq will become a cesspool for civil strife. How could there be terrorist activity there after the US leaves when such activity can only be directed at the US?
[quote]pat36 wrote:
No they are not. But I aggree there is nothing we can do about it and they know it.[/quote]
Oh really, and just why not?
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Bullshit, we still have to keep presure on them. The purpose of which is to not let them maneauver in secret, but expose everything they are doing for full visability. Nobody wants Iran to become the dominant power in the ME, least of all the rest of the ME.
It would be flat idiotic to ignore them and give them carte blance. They would do something stupid and deadly if we did.
Thanks for your rivoting comentary, I need ed the ego boost. [/quote]
Yeah, they would do something stupid and deadly, alright…like create an all-Arab Middle East. How terrifying. This is a joke.
In reality, I already explained why they wouldn’t do shit because of the mutual deterrence of Israel’s nukes.
At some point you have to realize that the conflict between Arabs and Jews in the ME isn’t going to end until one side completely wipes out the other. So take genocide as your starting point and go from there. Now, suddenly, things become clearer.
