Confused. What to Do, Where to Go

[its_just_me]

You’re welcome.

I forgot to say you can add a little more volume by training more frequently (e.g. replace 1-2 cardio days for weight lifting…which due to the intervals of high intensity would actually do more for fat loss than 2 slow paced cardio sessions per week).

I do believe that certain people respond well to low(er) volume. Dorian Yates, Mike Mentzer, Arthor Jones, Stuart Mcrobert etc are just a few proof examples/authors that come to mind. But there is a line, everyone needs a little volume in their training otherwise it starts to resemble anything but bodybuilding.

You don’t need to go to extremes, just add in a little more frequency (if that’s the route you decide to take), or an extra set/exercise…monitor how it goes.

If feeling run down, take 3-4 days off in a row (in fact, for myself, because of pretty poor recovery, I do this every 4-6 weeks). Then build back up again while eating progressively more.

[Terrax]

Alright, here’s what my new routine is gonna look like. Bear in mind im gonna raise my calories to 2200 on training days, and 1800 on off days.

Day 1: Chest+Shoulders+Tris

1. Low Incline DB Bench, 2x6-12
   supersetted with Pec Deck, 2x8-12
2. Machine shoulder press, 2x8-15
   supersetted with Ez-bar front raises, 2x8-15
3. DB partial laterals (john meadows), 2x35
4. V-bar pushdowns, 2x8-15
   supersetted with Lying DB extensions, 2x8-15

Day 2: Off/cardio

Day 3: Back+Bis

1. Cable rows, 2x8-15
   supersetted with Chest-supported rows, 2x8-15
2. Front Pulldowns, 2x8-15
3. Face Pulls, 1x8-12
4. Ez-bar curls, 2x6-12
   supersetted with Cable curls, 2x8-12

Day 4: Off/cardio

Day 5: Legs+Abs

1. Stiff-legged deadlift, 3x8-15
2. Leg Press, 2x8-20
3. Hack Squat, 2x8-15
4. Weighted sit-ups, 3x10-20

Day 6: Off/cardio

Day 7: Repeat

How does it look? The sets listed are the ones I actually go to failure (or near) on. I’m not counting warm up sets. So now I have more volume. Hopefully this increased volume with the increased food will allow my metabolism to become healthier and I’ll lose fat again. I’ll make adjustments as I go.

I just need to lose 2 more inches off my waist and I can then maintain for a while, before going on a controlled gaining phase. I’m so close to my goal I can taste it.

[its_just_me]

Looks good.

Personally, I don’t like super-sets (kind of takes my focus away a bit)…but hey, if it works for you then it’s all good.

For back day, I’d probably swap out the cable row machine with some sort of heavy, low angle pulling movement like t-bar rows, or dumbbell rows and do reps around the 15-25 rep mark.

Very heavy load and high reps = amazing back growth.

Also, a good little tip for getting the most of my your exercises, is to ramp on the first exercise for the particular body part, then go onto your “normal” sets after it. It allows you to lift more weight with the higher/medium rep sets (“digging deeper into the muscle’s potential”). So you do a low rep set, then lower the weight, and do a higher rep set. Take for example chest day, it would go something like this:

Inc. BP - Ramp up in 3’s till you get to your top set (should take roughly 4-6 sets, while adding ~10lbs each set). Rest as long as needed, then drop the load by around 10% and rep to the max (failure…usually around 8-10 reps for benching)

Decline BP - 1-2 warmups then normal work sets (e.g. 2x 6-10 reps) because the first exercise primed the muscle for heavy weight

3rd exercise if needed (depends on your biomechanics etc…some people get good growth from just the basic pressing movements, others don’t)

I’d pick a good 2nd compound movement for pecs to be honest (not peck deck). Peck deck is good for high reps and pre-fatiguing/priming the pecs…but as a main exercise most would say it’s pretty poor (many say that the position it makes the pecs work in isn’t great).

A good exercise = one that you can add plenty load to over time and that allows the target muscle to contract in an ergonomic/natural way (however your body responds/leverage etc).

PS - if you need more info on ramping let me know and I’ll go into more detail (it’s not complicated).

[its_just_me]

[quote]Terrax wrote:
Bear in mind im gonna raise my calories to 2200 on training days, and 1800 on off days.
[/quote]

What were you taking in before? If it was close to 2000 cals then you’ve only bumped calories up by 200-500cals (something your body will just laugh at).

A better technique would be to eat at maintenance (or slightly above) for 3-4 weeks. Give your body chance to “realise” the change and increase metabolism accordingly.

Then proceed with your diet and watch the pounds melt off far easier than before

[Cato1]

[quote]Terrax wrote:
Day 1: Chest+Shoulders+Tris

1. Low Incline DB Bench, 2x6-12
   supersetted with Pec Deck, 2x8-12
2. Machine shoulder press, 2x8-15
   supersetted with Ez-bar front raises, 2x8-15
3. DB partial laterals (john meadows), 2x35
4. V-bar pushdowns, 2x8-15
   supersetted with Lying DB extensions, 2x8-15

Day 2: Off/cardio

Day 3: Back+Bis

1. Cable rows, 2x8-15
   supersetted with Chest-supported rows, 2x8-15
2. Front Pulldowns, 2x8-15
3. Face Pulls, 1x8-12
4. Ez-bar curls, 2x6-12
   supersetted with Cable curls, 2x8-12

Day 4: Off/cardio

Day 5: Legs+Abs

1. Stiff-legged deadlift, 3x8-15
2. Leg Press, 2x8-20
3. Hack Squat, 2x8-15
4. Weighted sit-ups, 3x10-20

Day 6: Off/cardio

Day 7: Repeat
[/quote]

Why not something more like this, for example(sets listed are working weights, though not necessarily straight sets):

Chest+Shoulders+Tris

1. BB Bench 4x5-8
2. BB/DB Overhead Press (Preferably standing) 4x5-8
3. DB Incline 3x8
4. Medial or Posterior Delt raise 3x8-12
5. Skullcrushers or French Press 3x8-12

Back+Bis

1. Bentover BB Row 4x5-8
2. Pullups/Chinups/Assisted 4x5-8
3. BB Shrugs 3x8-12
4. Weighted 45 degree back extensions 3x8-12
5. Barbell Curls 3x8-12

Legs

1. BB Back Squat 4x5-8
2. RDL/Good Mornings 4x5-8
3. Leg Press or Single Leg movement (perhaps some type of split squat or lunge)
4. Leg Curl 3x8-12
5. Weighted Abs/Hanging Leg Raises/Planks/Ab Wheel/something 3x8-12

You don’t have to necessarily do the days in that order but in the split you listed above, you’re doing two thing that you shouldn’t be:

First, you are doing some high ass reps for some reason, which combined with the few number of sets you are doing means that you are STILL doing low overall weekly volume, despite what you think. Moreover, you are hinting at the fact that you don’t want to get weaker as you lose weight. Doing high rep sets means that you are using a low intensity when you work out, which makes it much more likely that you will lose strength and muscle as you lose the weight. Though truthfully, I think that you are far too worried about losing muscle, given that you have quite a bit of fat to lose. It only gets truly hard to hold onto muscle when you are dieting down into, say, single digit body fat levels, not at your stage of the game.

Second, you have a shit load of machines, isolation and various esoteric exercises in there which just aren’t necessary given your strength and physical development levels. At the same time, you aren’t doing many of the “big” exercises that are commonly done, such as BB rows, chinups/pullups, etc. Instead, you should be focusing mainly on compound lifts, bread and butter type things, at your level, as I tried to do in the example I posted above. That isn’t to say you can’t do any isolation exercises but you shouldn’t be specializing in them at this point, given your goals. They are much worse for losing weight and you seem concerned about just adding muscle everywhere, not “bringing up your upper chest” or your “biceps peak” or some such.

Last, as others have suggested, you might consider doing this split twice a week if you can recover from such a frequency: ie. one day off a week. You can do that instead of the cardio, as some other guys have suggested. You’re going to burn a lot more net calories from adding another weight session compared to 45 minutes of walking or whatever low intensity cardio you are currently doing. In the alternative, you might as well do 45+ minutes of walking every day and not limit it to 3x a week, since it isn’t going to impact your recovery.

As a side note, I think that you are underestimating your progress in the last two months. You are visibly much leaner especially in the midsection. 20 lbs in two months is nothing to scoff at, in fact its about optimal (around 2 lbs per week). Also, I’d agree that around 2k calories is a good number to shoot for.

[Terrax]

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]Terrax wrote:
Bear in mind im gonna raise my calories to 2200 on training days, and 1800 on off days.
[/quote]

What were you taking in before? If it was close to 2000 cals then you’ve only bumped calories up by 200-500cals (something your body will just laugh at).

A better technique would be to eat at maintenance (or slightly above) for 3-4 weeks. Give your body chance to “realise” the change and increase metabolism accordingly.

Then proceed with your diet and watch the pounds melt off far easier than before :)[/quote]

I’ve been eating 1600 cals per day. I just dont want to bump the cals up too much and re-gain some of the fat that I’ve lost.

[Terrax]

[quote]Cato wrote:

[quote]Terrax wrote:
Day 1: Chest+Shoulders+Tris

1. Low Incline DB Bench, 2x6-12
   supersetted with Pec Deck, 2x8-12
2. Machine shoulder press, 2x8-15
   supersetted with Ez-bar front raises, 2x8-15
3. DB partial laterals (john meadows), 2x35
4. V-bar pushdowns, 2x8-15
   supersetted with Lying DB extensions, 2x8-15

Day 2: Off/cardio

Day 3: Back+Bis

1. Cable rows, 2x8-15
   supersetted with Chest-supported rows, 2x8-15
2. Front Pulldowns, 2x8-15
3. Face Pulls, 1x8-12
4. Ez-bar curls, 2x6-12
   supersetted with Cable curls, 2x8-12

Day 4: Off/cardio

Day 5: Legs+Abs

1. Stiff-legged deadlift, 3x8-15
2. Leg Press, 2x8-20
3. Hack Squat, 2x8-15
4. Weighted sit-ups, 3x10-20

Day 6: Off/cardio

Day 7: Repeat
[/quote]

Why not something more like this, for example(sets listed are working weights, though not necessarily straight sets):

Chest+Shoulders+Tris

1. BB Bench 4x5-8
2. BB/DB Overhead Press (Preferably standing) 4x5-8
3. DB Incline 3x8
4. Medial or Posterior Delt raise 3x8-12
5. Skullcrushers or French Press 3x8-12

Back+Bis

1. Bentover BB Row 4x5-8
2. Pullups/Chinups/Assisted 4x5-8
3. BB Shrugs 3x8-12
4. Weighted 45 degree back extensions 3x8-12
5. Barbell Curls 3x8-12

Legs

1. BB Back Squat 4x5-8
2. RDL/Good Mornings 4x5-8
3. Leg Press or Single Leg movement (perhaps some type of split squat or lunge)
4. Leg Curl 3x8-12
5. Weighted Abs/Hanging Leg Raises/Planks/Ab Wheel/something 3x8-12

You don’t have to necessarily do the days in that order but in the split you listed above, you’re doing two thing that you shouldn’t be:

First, you are doing some high ass reps for some reason, which combined with the few number of sets you are doing means that you are STILL doing low overall weekly volume, despite what you think. Moreover, you are hinting at the fact that you don’t want to get weaker as you lose weight. Doing high rep sets means that you are using a low intensity when you work out, which makes it much more likely that you will lose strength and muscle as you lose the weight. Though truthfully, I think that you are far too worried about losing muscle, given that you have quite a bit of fat to lose. It only gets truly hard to hold onto muscle when you are dieting down into, say, single digit body fat levels, not at your stage of the game.

Second, you have a shit load of machines, isolation and various esoteric exercises in there which just aren’t necessary given your strength and physical development levels. At the same time, you aren’t doing many of the “big” exercises that are commonly done, such as BB rows, chinups/pullups, etc. Instead, you should be focusing mainly on compound lifts, bread and butter type things, at your level, as I tried to do in the example I posted above. That isn’t to say you can’t do any isolation exercises but you shouldn’t be specializing in them at this point, given your goals. They are much worse for losing weight and you seem concerned about just adding muscle everywhere, not “bringing up your upper chest” or your “biceps peak” or some such.

Last, as others have suggested, you might consider doing this split twice a week if you can recover from such a frequency: ie. one day off a week. You can do that instead of the cardio, as some other guys have suggested. You’re going to burn a lot more net calories from adding another weight session compared to 45 minutes of walking or whatever low intensity cardio you are currently doing. In the alternative, you might as well do 45+ minutes of walking every day and not limit it to 3x a week, since it isn’t going to impact your recovery.

As a side note, I think that you are underestimating your progress in the last two months. You are visibly much leaner especially in the midsection. 20 lbs in two months is nothing to scoff at, in fact its about optimal (around 2 lbs per week). Also, I’d agree that around 2k calories is a good number to shoot for.
[/quote]

Hey, thanks for taking the time to post on this thread.

The routine you posted looks good, and yeah you are probably correct on all your points. It probably does make more sense for me to do heavier weight on the big exercises and train more frequently. I’ll do your routine or something close to it then instead.

[Terrax]

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Looks good.

Personally, I don’t like super-sets (kind of takes my focus away a bit)…but hey, if it works for you then it’s all good.

For back day, I’d probably swap out the cable row machine with some sort of heavy, low angle pulling movement like t-bar rows, or dumbbell rows and do reps around the 15-25 rep mark.

Very heavy load and high reps = amazing back growth.

Also, a good little tip for getting the most of my your exercises, is to ramp on the first exercise for the particular body part, then go onto your “normal” sets after it. It allows you to lift more weight with the higher/medium rep sets (“digging deeper into the muscle’s potential”). So you do a low rep set, then lower the weight, and do a higher rep set. Take for example chest day, it would go something like this:

Inc. BP - Ramp up in 3’s till you get to your top set (should take roughly 4-6 sets, while adding ~10lbs each set). Rest as long as needed, then drop the load by around 10% and rep to the max (failure…usually around 8-10 reps for benching)

Decline BP - 1-2 warmups then normal work sets (e.g. 2x 6-10 reps) because the first exercise primed the muscle for heavy weight

3rd exercise if needed (depends on your biomechanics etc…some people get good growth from just the basic pressing movements, others don’t)

I’d pick a good 2nd compound movement for pecs to be honest (not peck deck). Peck deck is good for high reps and pre-fatiguing/priming the pecs…but as a main exercise most would say it’s pretty poor (many say that the position it makes the pecs work in isn’t great).

A good exercise = one that you can add plenty load to over time and that allows the target muscle to contract in an ergonomic/natural way (however your body responds/leverage etc).

PS - if you need more info on ramping let me know and I’ll go into more detail (it’s not complicated).[/quote]

Hey, thanks a lot great stuff. Yeah I’m pretty familiar with ramping. Tbh its how ive always trained. I’ve been using some supersets for the same muscle and I wanted to use it more because it really seems to destroy the muscle im working. Like I tried the chest superset that I put there and afterwards I could barely contract my chest anymore, it was so burning, swollen and fatigued. I know weight progression is extremely important so I figured if I use the first set of the first exercise in the superset as a barometer for weight progress, it would be suitable. Of course I would always be trying to use more weight, but that first set would tell me if I am in fact making progress.

It’s just that I’ve always trained with ramping up on an exercise, going to 1 or 2 sets to failure and then moving on to the next. While it’s standard bodybuilding stuff I just never felt like I was truly exhausting the muscle. Not saying it’s a poor way of training (of course it is good considering how many use it), but maybe I am simply not advanced enough to be able to completely squeeze everything out of a muscle on an exercise done by itself. When using two exercises done back to back for the same muscle I just find myself being able to generate a lot more aggression and completely trash the muscle group.

Oh I’ll switch out the cable rows though, I think you’re right about the t-bar rows. Btw thank you for all this advice, I am grateful to you and everyone else especially knowing that people take time out of their day to write a lot and to help me with my training and diet.

[its_just_me]

[quote]Cato wrote:

[quote]Terrax wrote:
Day 1: Chest+Shoulders+Tris

1. Low Incline DB Bench, 2x6-12
   supersetted with Pec Deck, 2x8-12
2. Machine shoulder press, 2x8-15
   supersetted with Ez-bar front raises, 2x8-15
3. DB partial laterals (john meadows), 2x35
4. V-bar pushdowns, 2x8-15
   supersetted with Lying DB extensions, 2x8-15

Day 2: Off/cardio

Day 3: Back+Bis

1. Cable rows, 2x8-15
   supersetted with Chest-supported rows, 2x8-15
2. Front Pulldowns, 2x8-15
3. Face Pulls, 1x8-12
4. Ez-bar curls, 2x6-12
   supersetted with Cable curls, 2x8-12

Day 4: Off/cardio

Day 5: Legs+Abs

1. Stiff-legged deadlift, 3x8-15
2. Leg Press, 2x8-20
3. Hack Squat, 2x8-15
4. Weighted sit-ups, 3x10-20

Day 6: Off/cardio

Day 7: Repeat
[/quote]

Why not something more like this, for example(sets listed are working weights, though not necessarily straight sets):

Chest+Shoulders+Tris

1. BB Bench 4x5-8
2. BB/DB Overhead Press (Preferably standing) 4x5-8
3. DB Incline 3x8
4. Medial or Posterior Delt raise 3x8-12
5. Skullcrushers or French Press 3x8-12

Back+Bis

1. Bentover BB Row 4x5-8
2. Pullups/Chinups/Assisted 4x5-8
3. BB Shrugs 3x8-12
4. Weighted 45 degree back extensions 3x8-12
5. Barbell Curls 3x8-12

Legs

1. BB Back Squat 4x5-8
2. RDL/Good Mornings 4x5-8
3. Leg Press or Single Leg movement (perhaps some type of split squat or lunge)
4. Leg Curl 3x8-12
5. Weighted Abs/Hanging Leg Raises/Planks/Ab Wheel/something 3x8-12

You don’t have to necessarily do the days in that order but in the split you listed above, you’re doing two thing that you shouldn’t be:

First, you are doing some high ass reps for some reason, which combined with the few number of sets you are doing means that you are STILL doing low overall weekly volume, despite what you think. Moreover, you are hinting at the fact that you don’t want to get weaker as you lose weight. Doing high rep sets means that you are using a low intensity when you work out, which makes it much more likely that you will lose strength and muscle as you lose the weight. Though truthfully, I think that you are far too worried about losing muscle, given that you have quite a bit of fat to lose. It only gets truly hard to hold onto muscle when you are dieting down into, say, single digit body fat levels, not at your stage of the game.

Second, you have a shit load of machines, isolation and various esoteric exercises in there which just aren’t necessary given your strength and physical development levels. At the same time, you aren’t doing many of the “big” exercises that are commonly done, such as BB rows, chinups/pullups, etc. Instead, you should be focusing mainly on compound lifts, bread and butter type things, at your level, as I tried to do in the example I posted above. That isn’t to say you can’t do any isolation exercises but you shouldn’t be specializing in them at this point, given your goals. They are much worse for losing weight and you seem concerned about just adding muscle everywhere, not “bringing up your upper chest” or your “biceps peak” or some such.

Last, as others have suggested, you might consider doing this split twice a week if you can recover from such a frequency: ie. one day off a week. You can do that instead of the cardio, as some other guys have suggested. You’re going to burn a lot more net calories from adding another weight session compared to 45 minutes of walking or whatever low intensity cardio you are currently doing. In the alternative, you might as well do 45+ minutes of walking every day and not limit it to 3x a week, since it isn’t going to impact your recovery.

As a side note, I think that you are underestimating your progress in the last two months. You are visibly much leaner especially in the midsection. 20 lbs in two months is nothing to scoff at, in fact its about optimal (around 2 lbs per week). Also, I’d agree that around 2k calories is a good number to shoot for.
[/quote]

Good post, completely agree

[its_just_me]

[quote]Terrax wrote:

It’s just that I’ve always trained with ramping up on an exercise, going to 1 or 2 sets to failure and then moving on to the next. While it’s standard bodybuilding stuff I just never felt like I was truly exhausting the muscle. Not saying it’s a poor way of training (of course it is good considering how many use it), but maybe I am simply not advanced enough to be able to completely squeeze everything out of a muscle on an exercise done by itself. When using two exercises done back to back for the same muscle I just find myself being able to generate a lot more aggression and completely trash the muscle group.

Oh I’ll switch out the cable rows though, I think you’re right about the t-bar rows. Btw thank you for all this advice, I am grateful to you and everyone else especially knowing that people take time out of their day to write a lot and to help me with my training and diet.
[/quote]

You’re welcome, it’s just good to see someone taking advice on board

Some like to do the bent over barbell row (as posted above), for myself though, I prefer something where my lower back isn’t put into as much as a vulnerable position (e.g. dumbbell rows/t-bar row etc) - damaged it a while ago. Also I can focus on the right muscles more…but it depends on the individual really.

How fatigued the muscle feels depends on the individual (strength level/intensity/mind-muscle connection), but also simply the amount of sets/reps you do for it. While ramping to a low rep set, you may not feel it much, but do a high(er) rep drop set afterwards (e.g. 6-10 reps) and the pump/fatigue increases, add another set and there’ll be even more pump/fatigue.

The mind-muscle connection (MMC) is important too, you won’t get a pump/burn/fatigued feeling in the target muscle without this. One of the best ways of getting good MMC is simply controlling the load more (visualise the muscle as you do the lift), and slowing it down on the way down, feeling the contraction/stretch in the target muscle. Initially, if your MMC is bad, you may have to drop the load by 10% or so and build back up while concentrating on MMC

^ All that is relative mind you, load progression still takes precedence