Confused on Keto

Diet and Nutrition
1

Typing this on my iPhone after a 46 hour workaday for real. Please pardon anything less than perfect here.

I just plain like keto style eating. When not eating keto I literally feel a little queasy, gassy, and kinda sick. And I’m literally full of shit at that point :slight_smile: So I want to stay “keto-ish”, but my understanding is that you just plain NEED carbs to transport protein I to muscle cells.

I’m confused here. How the hell can I keep my breads/starches/carbs low and stay keto-ish? Note that I’m not necessarily talking about testing positive on ketostix, just preventing that horrible feeling.

Stats: 32, 6’0", 265 roughly ~28% bf. I grew up a fat kid. I’ve tried all the bullshit then I did the math:

Your stomach is only gonna hold so much physical mass no matter what which means your cals will eventually break even (over years here) or you’ll operate at a deficit if training. If you grow to mass of X then fail to consume calories sufficient to maintain that mass yet train and eat properly including enough protein, eventually an equilibrium must be reached unless you’re somehow breaking the laws of physics I which case, we should talk. I want a time machine, dammit.

Joking aside, hope that makes sense. This is my present rationale behind my thinking: sure you’re big, just the wrong kind of big. YOU NEED MORE MUSCLE.

Okay so back to the point: I want to add more muscle but not much if any bodyfat. Keto sounds ideal until you consider that carb piece.

Now I’ve heard you can load carbs pre workout (but at what timing? 30 minutes, an hour? Depends on glycemic index? How do you know the right window for the carb type vs your metabolism?) then have protei. During the workout then protein plus carbs (again, GI questions repeated) post workout to fake it but this leaves me wondering two things:

Does that actually work?
If so, is it inferior to the typical high carb/protein, low fat diet we’re probably all used to seeing?

So. Yeah. I’m confused.

Lift wise right now I’m just focused on the big compound lifts - squats, deads, press, incline press, and whatever I can figure out for my back (that’s a totally different post though. No injuries, just confusion).

Appreciate any advice y’all can offer. Many thanks.

2

I’ve personally tried it and could not maintain that amount of calories. I was eating in excess of 8k a day. CT has an older article here on that very subject, a little old, but still relevant.

Having said that, you might want to consider adding all your carbs around training time. That would be a solution. Not very “keto”, but a good compromise.

A few people are doing carb back loading here. Look up the thread.

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Low carb does work even if not keto. Carbs spike blood sugar which spikes insulin, which makes you put on weight. When timed properly, this can be a good thing… Before weight training workout blunts catabolism. Most importantly, what works is consistency. Obviously you have to watch overall calories, but especially in cases like yours, I think limiting carbs is wise (over 20% BF).

4

[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Carbs spike blood sugar which spikes insulin, which makes you put on weight. [/quote]
I’m pretty sure most of the old members here are getting more and more ignorant…

5

I think you might have stumbled into something here without totally understanding why this “worked” for you.

It’s possible that you just react poorly to wheat, or some other starches. I don’t know if “carbs” are the culprit.

A similar paradox is observed when someone who eats a lot of junk food goes “vegan” and then suddenly feels fantastic, concluding that meat was their problem all along, not realiing that they also cut out a lot of other crap AND started eating more fruit and vegetables. There were a lot more variables than just “meat” that changed, but that’s the one sticking in their mind.

Solution: generally keep eating good fats, good protein, and reintroduce some clean carb sources around your workout (before/after). That could be a supplement from our Biotest hosts, a piece of fruit or two, a sweet potato, some rice, some oats. Try them one at a time and see what sits well. My hunch is that you just react poorly to wheat, but since you haven’t tried some of these other carb sources, you equated carbs = feeling like crap.

6

Not a doctor but if carbs make you feel like that perhaps your celiac?

7

[quote]kenny-mccormick wrote:
Not a doctor but if carbs make you feel like that perhaps your celiac?[/quote]

Basically where I was going with my post above.

There is a difference between “wheat” and “carbs.”

8

[quote]tolismann wrote:

[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Carbs spike blood sugar which spikes insulin, which makes you put on weight. [/quote]
I’m pretty sure most of the old members here are getting more and more ignorant…[/quote]
You’re totally taking what I said out of context. You disagree that carbs spike insulin? I’m sure you know the function of insulin. I didn’t even vilify carbs - in the very next sentence I said timed properly spiking insulin can be a good thing. I thought the OPs post was rambling, and gave a quick response which recommended eating less carbs for someone over 20% bf. I think this is pretty sound advice. I don’t think carbs are evil ftr.

9

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

[quote]kenny-mccormick wrote:
Not a doctor but if carbs make you feel like that perhaps your celiac?[/quote]

Basically where I was going with my post above.

There is a difference between “wheat” and “carbs.”[/quote]
Sorry I didn’t read your post just op’s but yeah I agree completely

10

Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Thank you guys so much for the incredibly intelligent responses.

Yes, you’re all quite right - I was indeed rambling. God damn work and meetings. shakes fist in the air at the gods/fates/whatever

First off, whoever said that I was equating carbs = “feel bad” and not differentiating carbs != wheat, THANK YOU SIR! Much appreciated. Because that is a very valuable insight that I hadn’t quite considered.

So let me get down to brass tacks here:

How many carbs (grams) do I need, of what glycemic index, to elicit a muscle growth response when combined with, say, ~50 grams protein post workout? (Obviously a ton of fat post workout with protein and no carbs isn’t going to work; or is it? AFAIK that just makes you fat like I already am. Which blows.)

I’ve got these rice cakes - Lundberg’s - brown rice cakes. 14g carbs, 1g fiber per unit. Is one of those enough pre-workout, then one post-workout plus a protein shake? Or should I be looking at a protein shake plus a weight gainer (which, from what I’ve seen, is primarily carbs?) post-workout?

Thanks again everyone. I sincerely appreciate it!

11

If you’re actually cutting, you may want to start with carbs as high as possible so you have something to cut. Do you know how much you’re currently consuming?

I think when I began my cut last year (taller, slightly less weight), my macros pre/post were 40p/50c/15f and 40p/70c. You can get away w/ crappier carbs post workout. Rice cakes are fine pre workout; anywhere from an hour to 35 minutes before your workout is fine. I normally eat my fat first, if it’s not in the meat, and higher GI carbs closer to my workout period. Rice cakes have a fairly high GI, btw. Personally, I don’t find fruit to be that great around workouts, but that’s me and I handle wheat well, so I have more options.

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[quote]thedudeabid3s wrote:
Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Thank you guys so much for the incredibly intelligent responses.

Yes, you’re all quite right - I was indeed rambling. God damn work and meetings. shakes fist in the air at the gods/fates/whatever

First off, whoever said that I was equating carbs = “feel bad” and not differentiating carbs != wheat, THANK YOU SIR! Much appreciated. Because that is a very valuable insight that I hadn’t quite considered.

So let me get down to brass tacks here:

How many carbs (grams) do I need, of what glycemic index, to elicit a muscle growth response when combined with, say, ~50 grams protein post workout? (Obviously a ton of fat post workout with protein and no carbs isn’t going to work; or is it? AFAIK that just makes you fat like I already am. Which blows.)

I’ve got these rice cakes - Lundberg’s - brown rice cakes. 14g carbs, 1g fiber per unit. Is one of those enough pre-workout, then one post-workout plus a protein shake? Or should I be looking at a protein shake plus a weight gainer (which, from what I’ve seen, is primarily carbs?) post-workout?

Thanks again everyone. I sincerely appreciate it![/quote]

Glad to help. As a mostly Paleo diet person, I’m surprised how many people think that bread and pasta are the only carbohydrates on the planet. I have to explain, frequently, that Paleo does not have to be a low carb diet if you plan it well. Anyways…

I wouldn’t recommend a weight gainer. Most of them are full of garbage.

I think the rice cakes are a good idea to start. I’d try one of those before the workout and see how it makes you feel (a key is trying these things ONE AT A TIME so you can figure out what works for you and what doesn’t).

You could also consider a supplement from Biotest like SWF or Plazma. I have not used them, but many folks here swear by them.

For a post-workout solid meal form of carbs, I’m a big sweet potato lover. Rice, also, seems to work well for some folks with gluten issues.

FWIW, I am generally a low-carber that does a carb-back loading-like thing (morning and afternoon are primarily protein & fat - pemmican, beef jerky - and then has carbs around evening workout time, like some coconut water beforehand and a sweet potato afterwards along with my large helping of meat).