Confused About Fat Loss

Diet and Nutrition
1

I have read endless articles on Fat loss, and losing fat, and there are just too many opinions. All it has done for me is set me back to square one. I have tried cutting carbs, and all it has done is make me hungry all day long (yes im still eating everything else) and make my workouts SUFFER.

A few questions:

Is cutting carbs absolutely nessacary for losing fat? And by sutting i mean <100g per day… the best i could do without making drastic (by drastic, i mean impossible)changes is <180-200.

Do i have to change my workout, or do cardio? (currently doing zero cardio. My workouts basically consist of 4-5 sets of 8 reps heavy compound movements, and one isolation… for basically all body parts.

I have been bulking the past year and a half, and its time to trim down now. Im currently 200 lbs, 5’9 and approx. 14-15% BF. Would like to get down to about 185 without sacrificing muscle. Is this realistic, following what i mentioned above about the whole carbs thing?

Anything else you need to know that i left out… just ask. thanks for the help

2

Hey there.

I’m nearly in the same boat as you. At 207 pounds and about 14-15% body fat i’ve started cutting. About 10 days ago.

I’m having about 150-200g protein, <150g carbs (non heavy days) <200g (heavy legs days) and a healthy proportion of fat.

So far i’ve lost about 1.5kg - 2 kg…

For your work out you really have got, and i mean got, to ditch the sets of 8 and do sets of 3-5. If you want to keep your muscle mass you’ve got to lift heavy. very heavy.
something like 7/5/5/3/3/5/5/7 is a good thing to do.

AS for your work outs, what i do is i’ll wake up, have a bowl of oats, a caffeine drink, green tea supplement and some creatine… hit the gym. The work out will be fine… then come home have some pasta or something and a protein shake (and some more creatine) and that will be the 80-90% of my carb consumption for the day. It works pretty well and my work outs dont suffer.

The creatine will just enable you to prevent muscle loss…

The caffeine and green tea supp. will help you accelerate your metabolism… also drink LOADS of water. Dehydration is too usually confused with hunger and drinking so much will make you feel full most of the time (plus help with creatine).

Finally, work out related… what you could do in a week say is 6 days of excercise and 2 days off (making your weeks 8 days… much better lol) 4 days will be lifting, 2 days legs, 2 days upper body (say arms one day, and chest/back the other day. Shoulders can be mixed, say front on arms, back on chest/back day). then the 2 remaining days you do 2 circuits.

each work out should be 30-45 min (circuits) and you work your ass off. you do the circuit 3-4 times) then if you feel game, add 2 steady state sessions. maybe after the upper body work outs).

If you do all that i’m pretty sure your work-outs wont suffer, your muscle loss should be very minimal and the fat should drop off you like the clothes of a hungarian stripper.

Well. you know what i mean. lol

hope that helps.

3

Great post, thank you. One thing, though umm… If im getting up at around 7:3 am (school), and i don’t work out until about 7:00 pm what do you think my carb intake should look like, spread through the day? Meal 1 at 8, meal 2 at 11:45, meal 3 at 2:45, meal 3 at around 5 ish, post workout meal/drink at around 8:30, and before bed “meal” at 10 or so, bed at 10:30-11. I eat about a dozen eggs a day, alot of chicken, steak, etc. and fish… fruit, vegetables… all clean. Can you give me like a really rough breakdown of what you would eat, please? thanks.

4

Losing weight is highly individual. Just because what he has done works for him, it may not work for you.

At it’s basic essence losing weight is about consuming less energy than you expend.
Do you have to do circuits? No. Do you have to do HIIT? No. Do you have to do steady state cardio? No. Can these things help you lose weight? Of course.

The trick is finding out what works best for you. If you don’t function well without carbs then don’t restrict your carbs so much that you feel like shit all day. If your workouts are suffering try taking some sort of a stimulant before your workouts.

5

[quote]ProfessorCHAOS96 wrote:
Great post, thank you. One thing, though umm… If im getting up at around 7:3 am (school), and i don’t work out until about 7:00 pm what do you think my carb intake should look like, spread through the day? Meal 1 at 8, meal 2 at 11:45, meal 3 at 2:45, meal 3 at around 5 ish, post workout meal/drink at around 8:30, and before bed “meal” at 10 or so, bed at 10:30-11. I eat about a dozen eggs a day, alot of chicken, steak, etc. and fish… fruit, vegetables… all clean. Can you give me like a really rough breakdown of what you would eat, please? thanks.[/quote]

As the guy above said, it is highly individual and you do need to tweak things so that YOU feel right.
Personally, since I study maths and am currently revising for exams I NEED the cognitive ability that carbs will help (by this i mean the glycogen and stuff that will fuel my brain). Im guessing since you’re a student you will too. In that case i’d advise having oats or something in the morning, try getting “slow releasing” carbs during your first meal, (ie breakfast) then don’t touch them till you have your pre work out meal and post work out meal.

Eg. 20% of your carbs at breakfast, 20 % pre/during work out and 60% straight after. That might work best for you?!

I’d try to leave at least 3 hours from when you last touch a carb ( and i mean the starchy type) and bed.

Here’s an example of a day where I worked out PM:

Breakfast:
2 x Oats + syrup
2 x Coffee
2 x Milk
1 x protein shake (25g)
1 x creatine

Pre Gym:
1 cup x Pasta
1x tuna
1 x creatine

Post gym:
1 x protein shake (50g)
3x pitta
1 x peanut butter
2 x creatine

Dinner:
1 x chicken
1 x brussel sprouts
1 x red kidney beans
1 x chopped tomatoes
1 x carrots

Snack:
1 x humous
2 x orange
1 x protein shake (25)

Summary: W/O (arms) day
2060 kcal
181 g protein
264g carbs
39g fat

Or today eg:

Breakfast (also pre-gym):
1 x oats
1 x milk
1 x creatine
(Supplements)

Post Gym:
1 x pasta
2 x creatine
1 x protein shake

Lunch:
2 x eggs (omlette)
1 x tomato
1 x carrot
? onion
1 x humous
1 x creatine

Dinner will most likely be Chicken + veg and post dinner snack will be like, protein shake and an orange or something.

P.s. important to eat lots of citrus fruits, you’ll need the fibre… believe me.

Hope that helps. anything else just PM me or something.

6

I have way more fat in my diet, and about the same amount of protein. Im gonna try a breakdown something like: on a heavy day 40g at breakfast (bowl of oats), 40-50g pre workout (probably rice or potato), and after i will eat about 60-80g more. That shouldent be too bad.

“Light” days i can go 35-40g breakfast, 30g pre, and 60g post. Hopefully this works…

Thanks for the help

7

I have read endless articles on Fat loss, and losing fat, and there are just too many opinions.

You’re not kidding!!! (grin)
.
Let’s talk about things conceptually, and then I’ll give you some numbers to hit.

If you are maintaining your current (200 pounds) weight, then all that is really necessary is that you create a slight caloric deficit and increase activity slightly. That’s overly simplistic, I know. But what you want to do is take in enough protein while dieting to make sure you don’t lose any of your hard-earned muscle. Good fats are part of that equation, too. Fat won’t make you fat if you’re eating at a caloric deficit. The trick with fat, though, is to cut out the bad fat (like fried food and fast food and hydrogenated and partially hydrogenated oil and trans fats) and add in the good fat (like olive oil and flaxseed oil).

The only thing you need to worry about after that is your carbs. You raise and lower 'em to suit your purposes. If energy levels start to suffer, you might need to raise 'em a bit, and if you’re not making progress, you might need to lower 'em a bit.

Once again, that’s a bit simplistic, but I will give you some numbers and recommendations to start with:

  • Eat 6 meals per day, every 3 hours
  • Eat 33g of protein at ever meal
  • Eat 3 P+C meals and include a serving of fruit in every one of those meals
  • Eat 2 P+F meals; one meal should include 2 tablespoons of flaxseed oil (28g of fat) and the other should include 2 tablespoons of olive oil (28g of fat)
  • One meal can be a P-only meal (like a protein shake), or it can be your peri-workout nutrition (i.e., Surge)
  • Limit total fat for the whole day to 84g of fat
  • Keep a food log of what you are eating (like on www.fitday.com)
  • Weigh and measure and record everything you’re putting into your mouth; everything counts!
  • Put together a menu of what you’re going to eat so that you hit your numbers, without going over; after you’ve made 2 or 3, you can rotate between 'em
  • Eat all the fibrous green veggie carbs you want; you do not need to weigh or measure or count or record 'em; they can be consumed in all meals (even P+F meals), as much as you want
  • Go easy on the cheese and peanut butter
  • Hold the dressings & sauces; eat your veggies “neked”
  • Optimize PWO nutrition; in your case you need 60-65g of starchy carbs in the meal following your workout; avoid starchy carbs at all other times.

For more detail on the things I recommended above, check out http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1509230

Questions? (grin)

8

Tampa Terry to the ressscue
Tampa Terry to the res-cue

*I sing that, by the way…It sounds pretty good too :wink:

You win, Tampa Terry…you’re all right

:wink:

9

What should be the ratio of egg whites to whole eggs? Especially if im not going to be taking in the oil like you said. Or should i go pick up some olive and flxseed oil, and just drink a tablespoon on the PF meals?

10

a calorie is a calorie. it is a unit of energy.

use more than you eat. don’t worry about all the technical shit with what spikes your insulin, how much and for how long. fretting about it only gets confusing.

keep good food choices in mind ( whole grains, lean meats, lots of fruits and veggies etc), excercise regularly and you will lose weight.

i havn’t been much of a fan of fat loss supplements, but tried HOT-ROX after all the hype on this site.

to be honest i havn’t lost any weight with it after a month of use, but my body fat percentages have dropped ever so slightly.

so, it is doing it’s job even if not as effectively as advertised and maybe it will work for you. but your excercise and diet are the most important of course.

11

Add 2 tablespoons of flaxseed oil to one of your P+F meals, yes. Add 2 tablespoons of olive oil to the other P+F meal.

If you look up egg white on www.fitday.com or www.nutritiondata.com, each large egg white has 4g of protein and no fat. If you look up one large whole egg, you get 6g of protein and a few grams of fat. So it’s probably going to be something like 7 large egg whites and 1 whole egg.

Here’s the link for egg white (not plural).
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c201o.html

In the upper right hand corner there’s a window to type in things you want to search for. Do a search for egg whole and see how many grams of fat are in a whole egg.

BTW, make sure you take full advantage of your “flavor carbs.” Don’t be afraid to add some onions, green peppers, mushrooms and/or salsa!

It’s a hassle figuring out all this stuff the first time, but it gets easier every time you do it. (grin)

Oh, and Pauli D, that was definitely good for a laugh. I was quite impressed with how well you carry a tune! (grin)

12

Hi there (again)

I am currently following a diet very similar to the aforementioned one. I am on a 2000kcal limit (approx. 1900-2100) and plan on staying on it for a total of 4 weeks.

A bit of history behind this move; I started training properly about 9 months ago and I went straight to a bulk (not knowing anything really apart from “stuff your face” = muscle gains when you combine it with hard lifting).

The result, i’m very happy with, is a gain of about 14-15kg which puts me (or put me at the beginning of my diet rather) at the 94-95kg region. Following 10 days of dieting i’ve now weighed in at 91.8kg so I can tell it’s working.

My goal if you wish is to lean out a bit and simultaneously detox (as a lot of the toxines we eat are stored as fat by cutting i’ll hopefully be able to rid a lot of those). My final weight goal following this diet would be 89-90kg.

My question is, once i’ve finished will my metabolism be messed up? Will my tolerance to carbs be so horrible that when i start eating them again i’ll just put on a lot of weight again?

Furthermore, calorie wise, will my old 3600 maintenance level be very diffirent from my new level? Should I gradually build up? Finally, should my eating habits change much from the Current set up? (P+C,P+F wise)

for example, a day would be like:

Breakfast (also pre-gym):
oats, milk, banana, creatine + supplements

Post Gym:
pasta, creatine, protein shake

Snack: carrots, orange

Lunch:
eggs, chicken, tomatoes, humous, carrots

Dinner:
chicken, brussel sprouts, carrots, red pepers, runner beans, shot of olive oil (yum).

Post dinner:
2 fried eggs, protein shake

Also, i’m working out hard throughout the week. 4 heavy sessions (2 legs, 2 upper body) and 2 circuit trainings… I also scatter a few sprints/steady state training throughout.

To prevent muscle loss i’m taking creatine (as mentioned above) about 5g per day. Is that enough to guarantee minimal muscle loss? Is overtraining also a danger?

Thanks for your help.

13

All,

First off, I can totally sympathize with the complexities of fat loss. There is an endless array of articles and posts on the issue with opinions ranging quite wildly on the topic.

While there was some good information provided thus far, the one thing that I believe is missing is the area dealing with creating metabolic imbalances and progress tracking. Let me explain.

While a wide variety of diets will work if you stick with them, the hard part is rolling forward the first few weeks of fat loss through to weeks four, five, six, etc.

Your body is very apt at adjusting to a state of homeostasis which is why when trying to lose fat we constantly need to create a metabolic imbalance both through training and diet. This is where progress tracking comes in.

As you move through the weeks of your program you need to closely monitor not only the scale and the measuring tape, but also the mirror. Once things stop changing we need to adjust either diet or training to compensate. This is why a template diet will not work in the longer term.

So how should we manipulate our programs to ensure progress. Well here are some key elements up for manipulation:

Diet (aside from the basics mentioned above):

  • A week on week reduction in daily caloric intake
  • Dropping all non-vegetable carbohydrates away from training periods
  • Dropping levels of all non-essential fatty acids throughout the day (keeping EFAs and a compliment of monos & polys is advised)
  • Eventually removing all carbohydrates from pre-workout (replace with BCAAs and water)
  • Eventually reducing the amount of carbohydrates you consume post-workout

Overall people tend to WAY over estimate the amount of carbohydrates they need in their day and tend to include them because they are a form of comfort rather than result.

Weight training:

  • The goal is muscle mass maintenance while creating a metabolic imbalance (think racing heart rate)
  • In terms of weight training, roughly half of your time should be spent on heavy work (80% max and up) starting with straight sets, moving to supersets, and eventually giant sets - still all heavy
  • The other half of your time should be spent in lactic acid training mode focusing on complexes and circuits (these are brutal and will make you want to throw up)
  • Your rest between sets should gradually come down
  • Actual weights used should be maintained as heavy, for as long as possible, but should not sacrifice form

Cardio:

  • Focus on HIIT and sprints to maximize post oxidization of stored fatty acids (burning more fat throughout your day)
  • HIIT must be structured as a progression with a reduction of rest to work ratio over time being essential
  • Post lactic acid training, rest for 5 minutes and then induce some steady state work (which should also be structured as a progression)

To the post that asked about over training, you’ll know when you are over trained when you wake up with an elevated heart rate but are physically weak and tired. Also, your grip will weaken significantly over time.

In terms of worrying about a down-regulated thyroid function and resting metabolic rate, there are two neat little tests you can do to track your body’s performance.

The first is the morning temperature test for your resting metabolic rate. Upon waking, prior to doing ANYTHING, place a digital thermometre in your armpit for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes turn it on and record the temperature. 97.2-98.2 is normal. 97-97.7 is a mildly depressed metabolic rate. And under 97 is severely depressed. If you are in the depressed zone, a refeed may be in order.

The second test has to do with your thyroid. Your thyroid is one of the most important factors that effects your rate of fat loss. If your thyroid isn’t operating optimally your rate of fat loss will slow. This is primarily due to a prolonged hypocaloric diet but specifically due to a lack of trace minerals.

So to test to see if your thyroid is working well you’ll need to take some tinc iodine (the liquid) and paint a little 3 inch spot on your upper arm. If the brown stain fades in less then 12 hours then your thyroid function is severely depressed. Between 12 and 24 hours, slightly depressed. And over 24 hours you should be cool.

If it fades too quickly, you can use the test as a treatment to help optimize its function. Also, it may be time for a scheduled refeed.

To wrap up there are a couple of things that you should keep in mind when it comes to a fat loss plan.

  1. Give it all you have for 4-6 weeks before returning to maintenance.
  2. It should not be easy, if it is then you are not working hard enough
  3. Track your progress closely and modify accordingly.

Hopefully I didn’t muddy the waters too much and shoot back with any questions.

Sasha

14

Nice to see Sasha back on the boards!

15

Just doing my part PauliD!

Hope the AD is going well friend.

Sasha

16

Thanks for making it all not make sence Sasha. Started this thread because there were too many opinions, and ive gotten about 5 different ones already :slight_smile:

Is it normal to feel hungry all the time on the first few days of a new diet?

Edit: I forgot to mention. I got asked a pretty interesting question today… it was:

“why do you want to lean up if your only going to bulk again a week after?”

its true, im gonna want to bulk again after this. Do you think this whole thing is a waste then?

17

SR, that’s just the coolest avatar! (grin)

When I’m designing a diet (for myself or others), the first thing I do is make sure the person is getting enough protein and fat. And then based on their activity levels and goals and a few other things, I’ll make a guess on how many carbs I think they need. Then it’s just a case of monitoring their progress so that they don’t lose weight too quickly. That’s how you protect a person’s metabolism.

It’s not really a direct analogy, but another way to say metabolism is “LBM” or “Lean Body Mass.” The reason I say that is because while muscle burns calories 24/7, stored fat burns little to no calories. So the more muscle you carry, the more calories your body requires to maintain its weight … and thus, the faster/hotter your metabolism runs. Bottom line? Protect the LBM you carry when dieting, and your metabolism will be fine!

At a body weight of 205, that 2,000 calories is roughly 10 times body weight. If you’re playing rugby, that’s probably going to be too low.

Another concept or thing to consider when designing a diet … the faster you lose weight, the more LBM you’re going to lose and the more your metabolism will suffer/slow. Be willing to adjust your numbers if need be.

Let’s talk about detoxifying. If you’re dieting, you’re detoxifying. If you’re drawing on stored body fat because you’re eating at a caloric deficit, anything stored in the fat cells is being released. The only thing you need to do along those lines is make sure you’re eating fibrous green veggie carbs. The fiber in them will bind any toxins removed by the liver and carry them out of the body. If you want to take it up a notch, buy organic as much as you can (organic protein and organic veggies).

The other thing that’s going to happen naturally that is supportive of detoxification in general is that you won’t be:

  • eating sugar
  • drinking alcohol
  • consuming hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated oils
  • trans fats

You could also abstain from foods known to be allergenic. There’s a list if you do a search on the Internet. The eight most allergenic foods are:

*     Peanut
*     Tree nut
*     Milk (Dairy)
*     Egg
*     Soy
*     Wheat
*     Fish
*     Shellfish

Since you’re only wanting to lose about 6 more pounds, you need to slow weight loss down to less than one pound a week. It’s okay to lose weight at a faster rate if you have more weight to lose, but that’s not the case with you.

Your questions:

Q. Once I’ve finished will my metabolism be messed up?
A. Not if you (a) eat 1 pound of protein per pound of body weight, (b) eat 0.4g of fat per pound of body weight, (c) chose predominantly fibrous green veggies, fruit and beans for carbs, (d) optimize PWO nutrition, and (e) control the rate at which you lose weight.

Q. Will my tolerance to carbs be so horrible that when I start eating them again I’ll just put on a lot of weight again?
A. No. Even while cutting you will be eating carbs. And then when you switch back to maintenance calories, all you do is increase the number of carbs you are eating just enough to maintain your weight.

Q. Caloriewise, will my old 3600 maintenance level be very diffirent from my new level, and should I gradually build up?
A. If you increase the amount of LBM you have while bulking, your maintenance calories will be higher. If you lose LBM while dieting, your maintenance calories will be lower. In general, yes, you should increase calories in 500-calorie increments once a week until you find your new maintenance. I do have to say, though, that if maintenance was 3,600 calories per day and you are dieting at 2,000 calories per day, that was too much of a reduction in calories.

Q. Finally, should my eating habits change much from the current setup? (P+C, P+F wise)
A. Do me a favor, SR, and read my posts on this thread – http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1509230 – and re-do your plan according to those things I recommend (to the extent you understand them), and repost it on the forum. At that point I’ll help you put the finishing touches on things.

So tell me, how would you like to start your own thread, since I have a feeling you and I will be going back and forth with the Q&A? (grin)

18

PC, if you’re eating 1g of protein per pound of body weight and 0.4g of fat per pound of body weight, you shouldn’t be hungry all the time. Hunger is usually an indicator that calories are too low. Carb CHOICES can also make hunger worse. A person who eat fibrous green veggie carbs and measured (i.e., limited) amounts of beans and fruit will have less of a problem with hunger than a person eating bread, potatoes and rice cakes, as an example.

It’s probably not the best approach to go back and forth between bulking and cutting without some sort of a transition. Ideally you would allow yourself a month at maintenance in between a bulking and cutting cycle.

19

I have basically no idea what my maitenence is. Dont even know where to start. Maitenence varies based on your routine too, yes? (eg. light days and heavy days)…

How am i gonna figure this one out (after im done dieting)

20

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
SR, that’s just the coolest avatar! (grin)

So tell me, how would you like to start your own thread, since I have a feeling you and I will be going back and forth with the Q&A? (grin)
[/quote]

Thanks for everything.

I will definitely start a thread once I’ve sorted things out. I just have a few more “notes/questions”.

I started about 10 days ago and modeled it on the Get Shredded diet (which can be seen on this website). The reason is that I have exams that start in 3 weeks (finals) and I didn’t want to be in such a hypocaloric state… As you can imagine! The 4 week 2000 kcal programme would have allowed me to lose all the desired weight and then gently build up (by 500 as you say).

Is there any danger if I keep losing weight at a rate that isn’t neccessarily less than a pound a week? (maybe exactly 1, or a slight bit more a week).

Thanks again.