Compound Exercises Only for Max Mass?

Over the last year, I’ve moved to a workout like this. I read an article called the 80/20 plan or something like that and it made complete sense to me, do a search on it. I’m married, with a career and children. I don’t care about symmetry, I just want to stay in shape and be active. I recently started doing this-

Mon-heavy bench
Tue-light sq
Wen-deadlift
thur-light bench
Friday-Heavy sq

I do it on the way home from work, I’m in and out of the gym in 30-45 minutes. Mentally I feel fresh, because I know I will not be in there for a long time and I like the idea of just attacking an exercise and getting out. On the heavy days I do the 5/3/1 programming and the light days I do a 5x5. I also throw in pullups, dips and pushups on the bench and squat days. On Deadlift day I do the 5/31 for military press mixed in with Rows.

So it’s not a true one lift a day, but the point is that if you really work on compound lifts you will get stronger and healthier.

The rule is that 80 percent of all your results, come from 20% of your work.

[quote]RampantBadger wrote:

[quote]Iron.Dan wrote:
is the yates 3 way split still considered a good BB’ing routine that used to be popular on here?[/quote]

Doggcrap is probably the best of the HIT routines[/quote]

Yeah but Danta said it has nothing to do with HIT and that it is not like HIT.

If you want to do a compound only, one lift per day style program…the obvious choice to me is CT’s Layer System. The high pull will cover the absence of rear delt work that someone pointed out above.

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
I think most would consider me a hard gainer yet I do more volume than almost anyone yet grow fine. As long as I eat enough. [/quote]
This is very much worth repeating. It’s very hard to legitimately overtrain the human body unless you’re just not eating enough or you’re doing more volume and/or frequency than you can currently handle. A well-conditioned, well-adapted, well-fed body can handle a lot of work.[/quote]

I’d have to disagree at least from a personal experience standpoint. I know exactly how much food I can fit in my body and how much exercise I can do before overtraining after years of trial and error. I know that if you’re not satisfying the basic need for recovery and rest, no amount of food will help you after a certain point. I think it’s up to the individual to experiment with increased amounts of volume until you literally can’t add more weight.

Also, overtraining has other nasty ways of making your workouts suck besides not being able to add weight. The bottom line is, too much volume, no muscle growth. Too little volume, no muscle growth but possible strength increase. Everyone has different genetics and being in touch with that is not a cop out of hard work.

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Gotta disagree with hard gainers burning out on small exercises. I think most would consider me a hard gainer yet I do more volume than almost anyone yet grow fine. As long as I eat enough. [/quote]

Yeah I would have to agree, I’ve trained for a little bit, but only started making decent progress in growth once I got over the ‘hard-gainer’ thing and using some real volume. I mean if you’re a ‘hard gainer’, and you’re body doesn’t wanna grow, give it a fucking reason too! [/quote]

The term hard gainer is not a misnomer. It’s based on the general population who has great difficulty making gains. It doesn’t mean it’s impossible, but generally very difficult. It’s not an excuse for doing less work or eating less, it’s just that you know you cannot do a million sets without injury, can’t work out 4 hours a day, and that a body weight of 200 pounds and a 17 inch arm is still impressive.

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]ice65 wrote:
Just wondering what your thoughts are on this routine for size.[/quote]
What you wrote is not a routine for size. Period. It’s imbalanced, low volume, and low frequency. I don’t believe that some pushdowns and curls were the actual cause of whatever “burnout” you experienced. There’s certainly room in a productive and well-designed routine for direct arm work.

Not calling out out, but can you specify what “great results” you’ve seen? How long have you followed this program and how has your bodyweight changed? What’s your current height, weight, and general fat level (just a description, not a %)?

If that was “logical”, why not train every muscle in one day? Building muscle just doesn’t work that way.

Like GMoore said, you’re approaching this from a flawed perspective. No offense. Symmetry comes exactly from giving everything the attention needed to produce significant growth. The overwhelming majority of people will not see “maximum mass” in their smaller muscle groups (arms, shoulders, calves, etc) by doing only compound exercises. Some people with fortunate genetics may see good, maybe even impressive, growth by training with only compound exercises, but odds are that ain’t you or me or most people here.

You’re very mistaken if you think John Grimek avoided isolation exercises. Like every successful professional or amateur bodybuilder, he put hard work into both compound exercises and isolation exercises, and reaped the rewards.

It’s not so much that you’re “neglecting” them, it’s that you’re understimulating them by avoiding direct training. It’s like putting lettuce and tomato on a burger and saying “well, I got all my veggies in for the day.” Nope. Because it’s simply not enough.[/quote]

These are good points but I will try to explain my side of things. First, I am not huge. I have a 16 inch arm at 5-11 height and 190lbs at around 10% bodyfat. I don’t always eat clean and I don’t compete. When I meant great results I meant great results for me…in other words gaining weight versus no weight.

You can train every muscle in one day…just look at John Grimek’s full body routines (that did not have isolation exercises) guys in his time did that 3 days a week. If you think squatting 3 times a week is not volume, that is strange to me.

I do believe Reg Park, Grimek and Reeves had great physiques that weren’t imbalanced, but those are not the standards of today. I think Ronnie Coleman is massive but his abs are always bloated as well as Markus Ruhl’s. The point is, I’m not trying to be preachy but I think there comes a point when sheer size can distort muscles into looking unnatural, no matter how many isolation exercises these guys do.

That being said, there ARE guys who can gain from high volume, high sets, isolation so it obviously workd for some and some might even like it more than abbreviated training. Personally, 20 sets a workout is enough for me on a given day and 10 just feels right. And I might be interested in full body routines, although hitting squats or deadlifts 3 days a week will definitely lower my poundages.

Lastly, this may be a stretch, but don’t you think the magazines would be having a hard time making money if they didn’t come up with new routines every month? Would they really want to put in the most effective routines historically and be done with it? I don’t think so :slight_smile:

[quote]ice65 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Gotta disagree with hard gainers burning out on small exercises. I think most would consider me a hard gainer yet I do more volume than almost anyone yet grow fine. As long as I eat enough. [/quote]

Yeah I would have to agree, I’ve trained for a little bit, but only started making decent progress in growth once I got over the ‘hard-gainer’ thing and using some real volume. I mean if you’re a ‘hard gainer’, and you’re body doesn’t wanna grow, give it a fucking reason too! [/quote]

The term hard gainer is not a misnomer. It’s based on the general population who has great difficulty making gains. It doesn’t mean it’s impossible, but generally very difficult. It’s not an excuse for doing less work or eating less, it’s just that you know you cannot do a million sets without injury, can’t work out 4 hours a day, and that a body weight of 200 pounds and a 17 inch arm is still impressive.[/quote]

Jamie Lewis has a good article on the whole hardgainer/somatotype stuff. You should read it.

People often times need to build up to a higher level of volume. It’s all relative anyways. Plus, you asked a question and kind of already have your mind made up it seems, so I guess I’m confused on what you’re asking in this thread.

Ice, I don’t think you’re way off but look at those Grimek routines - he might squat, dl, press, bench and clean for 5 sets 3x a week which is more than I think you were thinking of earlier, he was seriously strong too

I don’t suppose he did that all the time and never did a curl though

It’s not an easy option for sure in fact it might be pushing your cns and joints a bit

Why not try it for a while and see?

[quote]gswork wrote:
Ice, I don’t think you’re way off but look at those Grimek routines - he might squat, dl, press, bench and clean for 5 sets 3x a week which is more than I think you were thinking of earlier, he was seriously strong too

I don’t suppose he did that all the time and never did a curl though

It’s not an easy option for sure in fact it might be pushing your cns and joints a bit

Why not try it for a while and see?[/quote]

He did do curls, calf raises and ab work too. The question is where you draw the line between “compound” and “isolation” here. Basically, he did bilateral isolation movements… but within a full-body routine. He never really liked split routines.

But would Grimek be considered Max Mass? He was a weightlifter turned bodybuilder, who happened to do well in the standards of the time.

For a more “proportionate” development in the bodybuilding sense, with a good V taper, wide shoulders, less-prominent traps, large chest, thin waist… Grimek isn’t the best example.

[quote]ice65 wrote:
You can train every muscle in one day…just look at John Grimek’s full body routines (that did not have isolation exercises) guys in his time did that 3 days a week.[/quote]
When I said “train every muscle in one day”, I was referring to giving every muscle direct training.

Plus, as I said, for the majority of his career, Grimek did not avoid isolation exercises. He did have the foundation of Olympic lifting, but there are several reports of him curling near or over 200 pounds. That doesn’t happen by avoiding direct arm work.

I said no such thing.

And all three of those guys trained in exactly the way you’re speaking against.

Not to get off on a tangent, but Coleman has been retired for about 6 years and Ruhl hasn’t placed high in quite a long time. I agree that some pro bodybuilders today are big just for the sake of being big, but there are many current pros who do emphasize symmetry and aesthetics over raw size.

The routine you wrote in this thread’s first post says you’re doing 8 sets per bodypart per week. Yes, that’s low volume and low frequency. But, hey, if you’re happy with the results you’re seeing, more power to you. Keep doing what works… as long as it actually does work.

Every time I gave up arm training to focus on compounds only, my arms shrunk. In fact my triceps only grow if I do some sort of overhead extension. Personally I get very little biceps on pulling movements and mediocre triceps on pushing. I second what others have said, make room for isolation.

Ive always kind of thought that the guys that are getting a tremendous amount of biceps stimulation from rows and pulldowns just don’t have great mind-muscle connection. I can make a row be felt more in my biceps but if I am robbing my back from some work usually. Also if I am doing that to purposely hit my biceps then why not just curl after rows. I don’t really get it.

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Ive always kind of thought that the guys that are getting a tremendous amount of biceps stimulation from rows and pulldowns just don’t have great mind-muscle connection. I can make a row be felt more in my biceps but if I am robbing my back from some work usually. Also if I am doing that to purposely hit my biceps then why not just curl after rows. I don’t really get it. [/quote]

So very true. Rows are not a bicep exercise and if it is have fun trying to fully develop your back

OP sounds like you didn’t want help or opinions. Sounds like you are gonna do what you want like spidey said. Not sure why you posted this

“Symetry” was mentionned, and I’d like to address that concept. Symetry is actually the wrong term (the correct one should be balance) since symetry basically means that the right and left sides of you should look the same. That having been said, we’ll take it for what you meant: having a balanced muscular development with every muscle being developped in proportion.

Well, good “symetry” differ vastly depending on who you talk to and what activity that person does. For example what is considered good “symetry” in bodybuilding is actually quite unbalanced compared to the ideal aestehtic or athletic body.

I’m not saying this to diss bodybuilders; I have trained many bodybuilders (including 4 IFBB pros and 3 who went to the olympia) and competed myself. But the reality is that to do good in a bodybuilding contest several muscles actually need to be out of proportion. For example the arms, especially biceps need to achieve a proportion relative to the rest of the body that is higher than what is traditionally seen as aesthetic, simply because big biceps create an huge visual impact in bodybuilding. Someone with overdevelopped hamstrings will also have an advantage because huge hamstrings are rare.

So if you go by “bodybuilding competition” standards, it is true that past a certain point it might be hard to stay “symetrical” doing only big basic lifts. Then again you do have several examples in the sporting world of athletes with big biceps who never do biceps work (gymnastcs, rowers).

If you use more traditional aesthetics and the athletic body as a measuring stick, isolation work is likely not really necessary unless you have a several imbalance and already a lot of training background.

I will also say one thing; I have trained athletes in 27 different sports as well as bodybuilders, powerlifters, strongman competitors, etc. Now I will go on record in saying that the best looking bodies that I’ve trained were a young strongman competitor, two Crossfit girl, a hockey player and a bobsleigh athlete. Sure they were not massive like the bodybuilders (even though the two crossfit girls would likely do well on a state stage without even dieting) but the overall look is much better. They are muscular, very lean and are very strong and powerful. No they do not look like comic book superheros, but they look better than the bodybuilders I train. Not only that, they maintain their look year round without severe dieting, anabolics use or the need to live like monks.

None of them do much is any isolation work.

Now people will point out that “yeah but they are puny, they don’t look as big as XYZ pro bodybuilder… I do not want to look like that”… the funny thing is that oftentime the people who say this are ligthyears away from the athletes physique they make fun of! It’s like someone who makes 20 000$/year making fun of a millionaire just because he isn’t a bilionaire!!!

One thing I noticed is that the AVERAGE athlete (average person training like an athlete) will have a better body than the AVERAGE bodybuilder. Sure you have some guys training for bodybuilding that have great bodies, but if you consider how many people train like bodybuilders, the success rate really isn’t high.

However if you go to a decent Crossfit gym, or where football players train, you will see that there is a much greater percentage of above average bodies than in the average gym. As I’m saying this I train people at 3 different Crossfit gyms and people from 2 others come to get trained by me. I also work with a football team (17-20 years of age) and hockey players… I also visit several commercial gyms every month. So I’m not saying this out of my AR*E :wink:

Is that a preach toward Crossfit or athletic training? No… but it is to prove that you can build a VERY impressive physique doing only the big basics. Once you have build a super impressive overall physique and you find that some muscle groups are lagging, yeah, invest some energy in direct work. But the fact is that every single set you do in the gym costs ya… it costs recovery energy and you only have a limited amount to spent. My argument is that if you spend a lot of that “money” on isolation exercises you will not be able to spend as much on big basic movements and recover/grow optimally. It becomes a matter of selecting what is the investment that gives you the most bang for your buck when it comes to reaching your current goal.

If your current goal is just increasing overall muscle mass and strength, investing a lot of training money in minor exercises might not be the best solution. On the other hand, if you are already as big as you’d like, and find that your biceps are a tad small for your taste, deadlifting might not be the best investment either!

One last point: anabolics. I hate to bring this up because they are not just limited to bodybuilders. BUT in the context of this discussion understand that anabolics are basically a way to increase your “training money”… they allow you to recover and rebuild faster. So you can invest more money. If I make 250k a year I am likely to have the luxury of spending money on secondary things, whereas if I make 50k I will have to be more selective. Same thing with natural vs. enhanced training. If you increase your training money artificially you will not suffer from spending money on a lot of isolation work but if you have a limited amount of training money, if you spend too much on minor stuff you might very well shortchange your gains.

Bottom line is that isolation work is NOT necessary to build a VERY solid and impressive overall physique that would make 90% of the population super proud. But once you reach a certain level of development and need to improve specific parts, it might become useful.

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
I think most would consider me a hard gainer yet I do more volume than almost anyone yet grow fine. As long as I eat enough. [/quote]
This is very much worth repeating. It’s very hard to legitimately overtrain the human body unless you’re just not eating enough or you’re doing more volume and/or frequency than you can currently handle. A well-conditioned, well-adapted, well-fed body can handle a lot of work.[/quote]

That’s true Chris… but there is a big difference between “handling” and “growing from”. When properly fed, and especially when proper peri-workout nutrition is covered, the MUSCLES can handle a lot of work. However the nervous system is more fragile than most people think and so is the hormonal system. I’ve seen A LOT of athletes and bodybuilders burn out despite eating a lot of good food. Their muscles recovered, but the nervous system started to crash which also led to hormonal issues. This is NOT limited to bodybuilding. It happened to a Crossfit girl I was coaching on the olympic lifts (I was not doing her whole training plan). But is a fact that you CAN do too much work for maximal growth.

With a pro bodybuilder I train I was forced to really cut down volume because he was not recovering properly… and that was during a mass-gaining phase and the guy eats like clockwork and can put down the carbs.

So while it is true that optimal eating can allow you to do a lot more work than most people think (I personally believe in more frequency than volume per day) it has its limitations as more systems are involved than just the muscles and energy systems.

[quote]MytchBucanan wrote:
Every time I gave up arm training to focus on compounds only, my arms shrunk. In fact my triceps only grow if I do some sort of overhead extension. Personally I get very little biceps on pulling movements and mediocre triceps on pushing. I second what others have said, make room for isolation.[/quote]

make room for isolation… if you need it.

THERE IS NO BAD OR USELESS EXERCISE. Any movement performed with a resistance has the potential to cause muscle growth if the proper loading parameters are used.

But as I mentionned, it is a matter of investing your training money properly. If you find that you NEED to invest in direct arms work… do it! But just because you need it doesn’t mean that everybody should do it. Just like because I do not need to do it doesn’t mean that nobody needs isolation work!

However people in general never find out what they truly need. They often to a ton of exercises “to cover all bases” so they never learn what they need and was is garbage volume. If you start minimalist and only add stuff in when you need it, you are much better able to find the optimal recipe and dosage for your body.

And again, I’ll reiterate: I’m not for or against any type of training. To give you an example on an average Wednesday I’ll train hockey and football players from 8:00 to 10:00 then an IFBB pro bodybuilder from 10 to 11:45 and then 4-6 Crossfit athletes from 12:00 to 1:30… so I have no bias toward any type of training but I have a pretty good idea of what can be achieved with various approaches.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
However the nervous system is more fragile than most people think and so is the hormonal system. I’ve seen A LOT of athletes and bodybuilders burn out despite eating a lot of good food. Their muscles recovered, but the nervous system started to crash which also led to hormonal issues. This is NOT limited to bodybuilding. It happened to a Crossfit girl I was coaching on the olympic lifts (I was not doing her whole training plan). But is a fact that you CAN do too much work for maximal growth. [/quote]

I appreciate the time you’ve taken to respond to this thread.

How can you tell when the nervous system is starting to crash? Or when there are hormonal issues? Are there clear signs that indicate when you need to back off and/or change things?

What actually made everything simple for me was when I decided to look at training from a problem solving point of you rather than from a program design point of you.

You analyse your subject (you body or someone else) and compare it to what you want to achieve. You will find several issues, problems that need to be fixed so that you reach the body you want. You need to understand that you cannot fix everything at once… establish a priority list of what problems need to be fixed and select the best solutions to solve those prioritary issues. As your body changes, problems will be fixed and new ones will arise so you have to re-evaulate your body and adjust your strategy.