Common Sense, Wherefore Art Thou

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Here is the funny thing, common knowledge does not exist. Or more to point, it is culturally specific, so that understanding what is considered common knowledge is actually acceptance/admittance into said cultural group. Case in point, C_C (and others’) response to read existing threads to initiate oneself into this particular cultural group.

Common knowledge as such (defined by and defining of cultural groups) does not need to be factual or non-conflicting. It just has to be accepted within the cultural group. (Look up ontology and epistemology if you want to get deep into this.) Take for example, Jesus. Christians say “Son of God”, Jews say “Nope”, and Muslims say “Prophet, but we have had newer and better.” Who’s right? Not the point here, just showing that cultural groups differ in what is “fact”. So the idea that people link loosing weight with getting muscle should not surprise anyone who watches the smallest modicum of TV commercials. It does not have to be factual to be accepted by some cultural groups. People are buying in, right?

So should we be surprised when an unindoctrinated newbie asks questions that are deemed common knowledge in this particular cultural group (bodybuilder on T-Nation) when the newbie is a member of the larger ‘lose weight to get buff’ crowd? No. Why the hell the fuss? Send them to our scriptures - stickies - and let them start there.

One thing that needs to be considered is that everyone belongs to different cultural groups, thus have drank the kool-aid of different common knowledges. It is a poor assumption to believe that others pull from the same experiences and cultural groups as oneself. That makes as much sense as making an assumption about one cultural group and applying it broadly to the general population. Or linking arm size to an individual’s worth.[/quote]

Mind you, I don’t believe anyone came at him at all in his original thread. It was in the beginner’s section. Most of us will not go there and rag on them for lack of knowledge. As such, this newbie here was not attacked. However, we have been getting more and more ridiculous posts HERE, in the BODYBUILDING FORUM and that is when they become fair game. His post was used as an example because I am still amazed a grown man with the desire to make large changes in how he looks would be that taken aback because his stomach stuck out a little when he is 135lbs and just started eating more.

Yes, this is still a community, and like any social group, if someone new expects to enter that group most have the basic knowledge to understand how that group works before attempting it.

For instance, if you see several very large weight lifters all training together and joking with each other while they train hard, would you jump into their conversation without observing them first?

Why do the rules change on the internet?

Most of these people won’t even read around the board before they make posts. That makes no logical sense at all and completely ignores any points you are trying to make about social groups.

Therefore, the lack of observation could be seen as a lack of common sense considering most human beings will observe a group before attempting to join that group…almost regardless of cultural differences. When in society does this not happen?

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Here is the funny thing, common knowledge does not exist. Or more to point, it is culturally specific, so that understanding what is considered common knowledge is actually acceptance/admittance into said cultural group. Case in point, C_C (and others’) response to read existing threads to initiate oneself into this particular cultural group. [/quote] I wrote /hijack at the end of my post for a reason. My post had nothing to do with common sense/the topic of this thread. I merely gave HiFiBoy some general advice. [quote]

Common knowledge as such (defined by and defining of cultural groups) does not need to be factual or non-conflicting. It just has to be accepted within the cultural group. (Look up ontology and epistemology if you want to get deep into this.) Take for example, Jesus. Christians say “Son of God”, Jews say “Nope”, and Muslims say “Prophet, but we have had newer and better.” Who’s right? Not the point here, just showing that cultural groups differ in what is “fact”. So the idea that people link loosing weight with getting muscle should not surprise anyone who watches the smallest modicum of TV commercials. It does not have to be factual to be accepted by some cultural groups. People are buying in, right?

So should we be surprised when an unindoctrinated newbie asks questions that are deemed common knowledge in this particular cultural group (bodybuilder on T-Nation) when the newbie is a member of the larger ‘lose weight to get buff’ crowd? No. Why the hell the fuss? Send them to our scriptures - stickies - and let them start there.

One thing that needs to be considered is that everyone belongs to different cultural groups, thus have drank the kool-aid of different common knowledges. It is a poor assumption to believe that others pull from the same experiences and cultural groups as oneself. That makes as much sense as making an assumption about one cultural group and applying it broadly to the general population. Or linking arm size to an individual’s worth.[/quote]

While your post is interesting, I believe that you completely missed the point of this thread.

We were talking about common sense, not common knowledge.

Some definitions of “common sense”:

-Sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge; native good judgment.

-good reasoning
Antonyms: foolishness, impracticality, insanity, unreasonableness

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Burst wrote:
waldo21212 wrote:
FYI for those still looking, I think common sense is on sale at Wal-Mart this week.

This, like PX’s comment about purchasing common sense reminds me of the old burn “You need to get a life, they’re on sale at Wal-Mart!” back in elementary school. I feel so lame, hahaha.

they had wal-mart when you were in elementary school?

either wal-mart is a much older company than i thought or youre like 12[/quote]

Wal-Mart was founded in 1962. It’s probably the former.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Therefore, the lack of observation could be seen as a lack of common sense considering most human beings will observe a group before attempting to join that group…almost regardless of cultural differences. When in society does this not happen?
[/quote]

Frequently. Anthropology is based on this (yes, big can of worms here).

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I wrote /hijack at the end of my post for a reason. My post had nothing to do with common sense/the topic of this thread. I merely gave HiFiBoy some general advice.

While your post is interesting, I believe that you completely missed the point of this thread.

We were talking about common sense, not common knowledge.

Some definitions of “common sense”:

-Sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge; native good judgment.

-good reasoning
Antonyms: foolishness, impracticality, insanity, unreasonableness[/quote]

I used your advice as an example of how a group deals with new possible members, that’s all.

I think common sense and common knowledge have been conflated enough in this thread to use interchangeably. Both are culturally particular. Some one has to judge whether something is good judgment within the confines of that cultural group and that reasoning will be based on the cultural knowledge of that group. They go hand in hand although I consed that I was less than clear in how I got from common sense to common knowledge.

A problem I see often while teaching is the idea of “Everyone knows…thus, its common sense…” My response, generalizations are flawed (even this one) and it is culturally specific.

Being from Texas I though everyone knew to respect others’ private property, it was common sense because you could get shot. Up north where I am living I had to remind some complete strangers to stop steeping in my flower beds as they where playing Frisbee in my yard. My wife reminded me that up here I can not shoot them. But seriously, private property?..common sense?..

Common sense and common knowledge draw from the same cultural base.

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Therefore, the lack of observation could be seen as a lack of common sense considering most human beings will observe a group before attempting to join that group…almost regardless of cultural differences. When in society does this not happen?

Frequently. Anthropology is based on this (yes, big can of worms here).[/quote]

What the hell. This is not an anthropology lecture and if some dumbass walks into a gym and jumps into the conversation you are having with your friends without even knowing the subject matter you will look at him as if he lost his fucking mind…yet here on the internet we are supposed to accept it and be nice about it.

If things like this are happening to you frequently, perhaps you should speak up next time.

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I wrote /hijack at the end of my post for a reason. My post had nothing to do with common sense/the topic of this thread. I merely gave HiFiBoy some general advice.

While your post is interesting, I believe that you completely missed the point of this thread.

We were talking about common sense, not common knowledge.

Some definitions of “common sense”:

-Sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge; native good judgment.

-good reasoning
Antonyms: foolishness, impracticality, insanity, unreasonableness

I used your advice as an example of how a group deals with new possible members, that’s all.

I think common sense and common knowledge have been conflated enough in this thread to use interchangeably. Both are culturally particular. Some one has to judge whether something is good judgment within the confines of that cultural group and that reasoning will be based on the cultural knowledge of that group. They go hand in hand although I consed that I was less than clear in how I got from common sense to common knowledge.

A problem I see often while teaching is the idea of “Everyone knows…thus, its common sense…”[/quote] This makes no sense though… Logically, one would call it common knowledge, not common sense. [quote] My response, generalizations are flawed (even this one) and it is culturally specific.

Being from Texas I though everyone knew to respect others’ private property, it was common sense because you could get shot. [/quote] It is common sense that people of different backgrounds/tribes/areas/whatever have different customs… And that one should observe these/learn about them and the reasoning behind them before acting/wondering. [quote] Up north where I am living I had to remind some complete strangers to stop steeping in my flower beds as they where playing Frisbee in my yard. My wife reminded me that up here I can not shoot them. But seriously, private property?..common sense?..

Common sense and common knowledge draw from the same cultural base.[/quote]

Common sense would be that (for example), if you do something which has noticeably harmful effects on you/your body/your relationships/whatever, you stop doing it/look for alternatives/etc. Many don’t do that, however. They’ll keep doing what they know is harming them until it’s too late (and then they’ll post about it on an internet forum).

Another example:
If author X tells us that all 300 lb bodybuilders are weak, then some of us use common sense to question that statement instead of simply believing it. Many others on here instead refrain from the use of common sense and simply believe whatever they read (thus making it “common knowledge” to them, or so they may think… While in reality it has nothing to do with actual knowledge and does not make sense either).

If an author tells me such a thing, it is common sense for me to look at the group he was talking about and see that, oh surprise, they aren’t weak at all.
So due to the fact that what passes as “common knowledge” on many internet boards does not in the least match with reality, I will reject that “common knowledge” based on a decision made via the utilization of common sense… Or so I’d say.

“Common sense is calculation applied to life” ← There’s a less dictionary-esque definition…

I suck at over-analyzing. Anyway, I don’t even know what my point was anymore :wink:

Someone’s arguing to argue…

[quote]That One Guy wrote:
Someone’s arguing to argue…[/quote]

I wonder if we’re thinking of the same person.

[quote]Gillium-001 wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
i was at work the other day and was in the office with a couple of the other guys who work there just shooting the shit a little bit. i took of my shirt cause it was sweaty and just nasty feeling (i had a wifebeater on under) and one of them says “youre big” in a matter of fact kind of way.

Your comment started off like you were gonna tell us about your first gay encounter.

(Sorry, couldn’t help it. You kinda set yourself up there, brah.)[/quote]

it was actually, but only cool kids got to see it.

[quote]That One Guy wrote:
Someone’s arguing to argue…

OH, oh I’m sorry, but this is abuse.
M: Oh, I see, well, that explains it.
Q: Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.
[/quote]

BAAAIM!

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Therefore, the lack of observation could be seen as a lack of common sense considering most human beings will observe a group before attempting to join that group…almost regardless of cultural differences. When in society does this not happen?

Frequently. Anthropology is based on this (yes, big can of worms here).

What the hell. This is not an anthropology lecture and if some dumbass walks into a gym and jumps into the conversation you are having with your friends without even knowing the subject matter you will look at him as if he lost his fucking mind…yet here on the internet we are supposed to accept it and be nice about it.

If things like this are happening to you frequently, perhaps you should speak up next time.[/quote]

I am just not surprised when it happens. Sometimes I am surprised at the responses. That’s all.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

I suck at over-analyzing. Anyway, I don’t even know what my point was anymore :wink:

[/quote]

I do not think we are that far apart on this. I had an example (to lazy to pick the book up now) about an indigenous group in SE Asia that think sperm is not generated by the body but passed down from man to man over the generations. There it is common sense and practice to blow some old guy to get your sperm count up. While that makes common sense in that context, you want sperm and you have to get it from some old dude, we might disagree. In the end though, it is about commonly held knowledge that predicates what makes good sense.

Anyway, I have been told it is common sense not to pick up anything so heavy it might hurt you. Everyone feel free to discuss…

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

I suck at over-analyzing. Anyway, I don’t even know what my point was anymore :wink:

I do not think we are that far apart on this. I had an example (to lazy to pick the book up now) about an indigenous group in SE Asia that think sperm is not generated by the body but passed down from man to man over the generations. There it is common sense and practice to blow some old guy to get your sperm count up. While that makes common sense in that context, you want sperm and you have to get it from some old dude, we might disagree. In the end though, it is about commonly held knowledge that predicates what makes good sense. [/quote] I’d call that a failure to use common sense… They could just jack off or screw someone to find out if they can produce sperm by themselves, couldn’t they?
Enough of that topic though. [quote]

Anyway, I have been told it is common sense not to pick up anything so heavy it might hurt you. Everyone feel free to discuss…[/quote]
What makes that common sense? :slight_smile:

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
BAAAIM! [/quote]

Do you think someday I’ll have haters like him GB? Do ya, do ya!?

[quote]That One Guy wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:
BAAAIM!

Do you think someday I’ll have haters like him GB? Do ya, do ya!?[/quote]

Only if you weigh more than 200 lbs. That’s where one stops being natural, you know. True story.

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

I do not think we are that far apart on this. I had an example (to lazy to pick the book up now) about an indigenous group in SE Asia that think sperm is not generated by the body but passed down from man to man over the generations. There it is common sense and practice to blow some old guy to get your sperm count up. While that makes common sense in that context, you want sperm and you have to get it from some old dude, we might disagree. [/quote]

GOOD LAWD!?!?!?!?!111

Please tell me you lie, or at least this will never be on discovery channel?

I’ve tried to post some article that i found in the internets… but it went all screw up, anyway here’s the link

http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2010-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=50

There’s a interesting article writen by john Mccallum about the topic of this thread.

[quote]wushu_1984 wrote:
MaxPower99 wrote:
It seems the massive amounts of training routines (designed for all levels of athletes) are too complex for the beginner to sift through and select from.

Yes, what an understatement.

Why would we expect a beginner to see a huge amount of training programs and principles and just magically know which one is best for him, after all he is a beginner. The beginner will either jump between many routines, or build his own so called ‘optimal’ (bench/curls/abs) routine, based on his own limited knowledge. All bodybuilding/workout websites should have a workout for dummies sticky made by the mods where the beginner is not given options to confuse himself in deciding which workout is the ‘optimal’ or ‘best’ workout. If even the advanced trainers and mods cannot decide on a ‘very good’ workout to tell the beginners “Do this until you look like you workout”.

Some will say there is no best routine for everyone, which is true, but the concern is mis-information to noobs and a one-size-fits-all, shut-up-and-do-it approach is the one that hasn’t been tried yet.

The stickies that are already in the beginner’s forum are really good. Props to vroom for his “Are you a Beginner II” Sticky:
http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_beginner/are_you_a_beginner_ii

Usually when I answer a post on the beginner forum I tell them to read the stickies and if they still have questions after reading them they better be good ones.[/quote]

Thank you for providing an example of the clusterfuck of info i was referring to. The link you posted has some 20 links inside it, 10 for diet 10 for training, ranging from slightly different to very different.

-edit, there are over 50 links within that one