[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]groo wrote:
[text][/quote]
Your dialogue could use some work. Here you go:
Groo: I contend religion is the driving force of deaths in history. That is my claim, my opinion.
TB23: Have you considered how many people have been killed in the name of secular ideologies? Because it’s kind of a huge number.
Groo: I read some dude’s work on genocide and how it is caused by religion.
TB23: Super, but genocide is only one part of mass violence. Most mass violence - think wars, etc. - are not genocides. So, even if relgion accounts for much of “genocide”, that still doesn’t support your claim that religion causes the mass violence.
Groo: Uh, but, see, what I meant was, it’s my opinion that religion is the driver of mass violence, historically, see.
TB23: Sure, but have you accounted for the mass violence committed in the name of secular ideologies? It’s pretty huge.
Groo: Well, see, uh, who can really know what caused what, I mean, in terms of body counts? I mean, we can’t really know, can we?
TB23: Well, you claimed that religion was responsible for the vast majority of mass violence in history…if what you say is true, how do you support your claim?
Groo: Well, uh, see, thing is, “history” is opinion, and it reflects whatever the [dissembling post-modern rubbish]."
TB23: “If what you say is true, you have no way of supporting the claim you started with.”
Groo: “Well, see, um, this one guy wrote a paper.”
TB23: “Let me get this right. You claim religion is responsible for mass violence historically, and you say your claim is supportable, proveable, and measurable; otherwise, you wouldn’t offer a claim that it was true. But someone offers a claim to the contrary that refutes your claim, and now you suddenly say basically nothing is supportable, proveable, or measureable, because history is arbitrary.”
Groo: “Is that not ok?”
Groo, next time, just say “I am an intellectual phony” and save me the trouble. Thanks in advance.[/quote]
I gave a body count for WW2. Immediately some disputed that the war was entirely driven by religion so that the deaths shouldn’t count. Conversely Mao’s deaths are placed as an example of non religious deaths. I could posit the vast majority of Mao’s deaths were caused for non religious reasons–this is certainly seen to be true with but a bit of a look at history. But in my view one can’t have it both ways. If Mao’s deaths solely are attributed to him being an atheist, then all the religious leaders of the world get the war deaths at their feet. I obviously don’t think its that simple, but give any qualification about determining an exact number and the religious jump all over that as my point being incorrect. Certainly the other position is in the same position of proof.
I am not a phony at all I think, with good reason most of the genocides through history(using the term as Lemkin violence of one state or another) have certainly come from religion.
All of the Abrahamic religions promote the idea of a chosen people. This is key to being able to promote genocide…race is another example of a chosen people.
You can see the conflicts of chosen people in the total disregard and disdain some proponents of each chosen people have for each other.
This very forum is filled with anti Islam when to the non religious the Abrahamic religions are not very different. Look at the disdain many of other Christian denominations have for Catholics and Mormons…and vice versa, many of each group thinking the other is destined for everlasting torment for being the other. If you can’t see how this chosen people versus the other was used to justify war and genocide by every side than I am not certain what it would take to convince you.
So estimates range between 200k as a low to over 2 million as a high point for Iraqi casualties…many of them civilian. This war was certainly set as a war between cultures and religions. Used by our leaders to solidify power and take away freedoms from a threat that by and large wasn’t particularly great and certainly partially created by us.
I cannot dehumanize 2 million people because they are from a different faith.
I’d say good men do good, evil men do evil, but it takes religion to make good men do evil.