Bouncing is relevant. Any job where you are likely to be assaulted is relevant to self defense because, get this, you will need to defend yourself. Oddly, none of the dozen or so people who actually swung on me were wearing big red gloves when it happened.
Besides, this thread was started to discuss the differences between various BJJ schools’ training priorities. You’re the guy who brought up punching old men, friends and co-workers.
The problem with the go to move is what happens if it doesn’t work?
@stooge I think there’s something to be said for simply having a plan to respond to violence. Plenty of guys just freeze up when things get chippy. I’ve seen a guy stand there after getting punched with his hands still in his pockets. Then he got punched two more times before I got in between them and saw them out.
You also touched on the best technique there is. Don’t get in the fight. Most (but certainly not all) bar-fights and similar fights are voluntary. The opportunity to simply walk away or not engage at all is often passed up because we get emotional about the situation.
But this is the Combat Forum, and we generally talk training, which implies a long-term commitment to steady improvement over time. There’s all kinds of things that an untrained person who has never lifted weights or sparred can do to give themselves an edge, but no gimmicks or one-trick ponies can substitute training over time under qualified instruction.
I bounced before I trained jiu jitsu, and generally did fine. Not because of my limited skillset, but in spite of it. I was basically big, strong, polite, and not a total dumbass in a fight. I’m no master martial artist, but three years of fairly consistent training has completely changed the way I handle violence on the job (which is now very part-time, one or two shifts a month).
What does self-defense mean to a bouncer?
The same thing it does to me when I’m not bouncing. The difference with being a bouncer is that you’re paid to deliver bad news to people (i.e. you can’t come in OR you need to leave), which can sometimes produce really bad reactions. You’re also paid to see that they comply with a request to leave by lawfully using reasonable force to remove them from the premises if they refuse your request to leave.
Some of these people will assault you while you do your job no matter how polite and professional you go about it. That’s when you need to defend yourself. Same as when you are not being a bouncer. You defend yourself in response to an assault that takes place while you’re minding your own business. The BIG difference for me is that I manage to avoid violence except for when I take a shift at the bar. For the last 15 years at least.
I’m PROUD to say that I’ve never beaten anyone up who has assaulted me on the job. I’ve banged the crap out of plenty of them with throws and takedowns, put a few chokes on and crushed the hell out of a couple of guys with top pressure and knee-on-belly, but nobody needed to leave my bar in an ambulance because of anything I did to them. I was able to defend myself from many assaults without needing to beat the ever loving hell out of anyone.
I only connected with a few punches in all of my encounters. Not because punching is bad or ineffective, but because I had better options right in front of me. Namely, the clinch or a throw. Ideally the back, but the side clinch is really good and I’m happy to settle for the front.
The biggest difference in bouncing after years of BJJ training is that I now have a violence algorithm I follow when I’m approaching a situation that may get violent or already has gotten violent, along with a skillset and the ability to see it through. Before training I just kinda inserted myself into the situation and winged it. Given the endless number of “what if?” scenarios for sudden violence, I’d like to share my thoughts on how jiu jitsu has shaped my approach to confronting potentially violent situations.
This is, all things considered, a narrow slice of the “self-defense” pie. That said, bars aren’t the only place where intoxicated people (who may also be on drugs and likely have severe levels of mental disturbance) get violent. It can happen on a bus, at a park, in a restaurant or the parking lot of a White Castle at 3 am. There’s OFTEN some kind of obvious lead-up to it, and intoxication doesn’t necessarily need to be involved either. Shouting, screaming, posturing, etc.
Maybe its a loved one of yours acting like this. Crazy shit can happen in all kinds of circumstances.
Are you going to do something about it? Maybe you should, but maybe you should just get the hell away. When you’re a bouncer, you have to respond unless you decide to simply quit on the spot (which is an option I always remained aware of).
Here is the most updated version of my Potentially Violent Asshole Confrontation Algorithm. I’m skipping over all of the social and observational aspects of this and assuming that this person will, in fact, end up throwing down.
Adopt prayer stance or variation thereof. Elbows in, hands up, right foot back and on the toes. This is the stance I keep when we’re still having a discussion. I’m watching the hands and doing what I can to manage distance here. From here I’m ready to move around on my feet, strike, absorb sudden contact, turtle up to protect my skull, post using my hands, grab their neck, clothes, overhook, underhook, etc. In other words, I’m ready to respond to bare-handed violence WITHOUT adopting a stance that’s telegraphing violent intentions.
Manage distance. Know where I am in relation to walls, obstacles, people, etc. Don’t stand where you can be easily hit.
3a. IF they are not violent yet but refuse to leave, I let them know that the next step is me putting my hands on them to move them out of the bar and reminding them that this is all on camera. I like to lead by grabbing the outside of the right tricep with my left hand. I like this because it creates a connection but it is one of the less aggressive ways of initiating force.
3a-1. From the tricep grab there are lots of good options. The “flashiest” move I’ve done in real life is an arm-drag to rear naked choke starting with the tricep grab connection. This was in response to a left-hand wind-up from a dude who wanted a fight for sure. I’ve gotten to the Russian tie from here, which is another great stand-up grappling position. Just an arm-drag and back take can be right here as well.
3b. IF the fight is already clearly on I’m looking to close the distance. Perhaps they’ve already done this for you. If not, turtle up and eat the contact that gets you to a clinch. Now we’re grappling and possibly having a conversation as well.
3b-1. Opportunities for throws and takedowns may present themselves as well. One hard-charging guy can set himself up for a Sasae, which is a simple judo technique where you help someone trip over your foot. They may turn their back and let you grab their belt. They may be a Muay Thai stud who is about to light you the fuck up.
Who the fuck knows until it happens?
All kinds of things can happen, but the idea in this part of the encounter is to make a connection via a grip of some kind. My ideal situation is having their back, but a throw or a clinch is generally good here as well. From here you’re basically running a standard jiu jitsu algorithm, and I’m not going to try and detail all of that as well. I could do a lot better job of this with visio and a bit more time, but I hope I’ve conveyed the basics of this conditional approach.
Had I encountered a skilled striker who wanted to pick a fight with a bouncer AND could manage distance, take away my use of walls and obstacles and made me play HIS game, perhaps I would have been in real trouble. I’ve done light sparring with a few Muay Thai guys and don’t have anywhere close to their timing or footwork, let alone the patience for taking shots to the head over time.
Luckily that didn’t take place. Luckily the sparring I did in training translated well to the times when I’ve been assaulted.
It is because of this experience and these outcomes that I can recommend jiu jitsu training broadly and jiu jitsu with a focus on bare-handed violence specifically. Sport is RAD, but it is a different training priority than addressing violence.
@CMdad Since the thread is still alive, have you ventured out to any new schools?
@twojarslave. As they say in my neck of the woods, you’re some man for just one man!
Great content in your writing. You will have a book in you, I’d say. Really like your violence algorithm concept.
I was thinking about what I had written yesterday and, out of respect for the OP and the forum, you are right of course: the question was about people who want to dedicate themselves over time to training.
I’m guessing Ireland, maybe around Wexford / Kilkenny?
Very good guess. I’m a city boy, but I do have a bit of mucksavage country boy in my upbringing 
haha mucksavage, tis a while since I heard that.
Now I’m going for Waterford, my own hometown.
Pure north inner city Dub, but my Ma was a country woman, and so I spent some part of my upbringing pickin’ sschtones and bringin’ in silllage…
haha lovely stuff.
Regarding self defence, you probably, like me, went to a Christian Brothers school where they taught us the value of blocking by beating the shit out of us. After that education, being beaten almost daily (probably daily for me as I was expelled twice), by violent agricultural forced celibate men the rest of the world held no fear for us.
They taught me that a position of power and impunity corrupts many, but not all, men. For those who got through it with minimal damage, it was a good life lesson for sure, but some lads had it bad from every direction: their home, the street and then school, no end to it. Life is better now for kids, if they would just realise it. Unfortunately, the lack of an external aggressor sometimes leaves kids these days with too much time to go in on themselves, and depress themselves with social media etc.
In that sense, I think some good hard contact combat sport can be good for perspective and mental health.
They taught me to duck.
STAND STILL WHILE I HIT YE, YE LITTLE BASTARD!!!
Fun times.
Hey thanks bud. I’m glad you got something out of it. To keep beating the dead horse of “GO TRAIN!”, the violence algorithm concept is not mine, nor is it something I fully understand. There’s a whole helluva lot about fighting that I don’t understand, but I’m still aware that the algorithm takes you there and addresses it. It will just take more mat time for me to reach the next level, same as any other trainee.
Building a battery of conditional responses to your opponent’s behavior is a core element of jiu jitsu that’s reflected in how we train and how we spar. My background in ERP software development and implementation makes putting violence into an if/then framework easy for me, but I sure as hell didn’t invent the concept of a violence algorithm.
I’m just applying the concepts I’m being taught as well as I am able to in the context of bouncing. I also apply it when I’m otherwise going about my normal business. It’s just that no violent situations ever seem to materialize when I’m not picking up a shift at the bar, which is great. I’m still riding a string of good outcomes when bad situations present themselves. Maybe that changes tomorrow. If so, I’ll let you know how it all goes down.
I’ve written a lot about the differences between sport and old-school jiu jitsu and I still have the same ideas and opinions about that subject. That said, I also firmly believe that there’s plenty that you can learn from anyone who can convincingly, repeatedly and without gimmick WHOOP YOUR ASS without damaging you at all.
THANK YOU for this detailed, clear and practical system of escalation that has obviously been battle tested against multiple belligerents! I have printed it out and I’m sure I will reflect on it much going forward. This is exactly the type of algorithm that I function well with and similar in concept to my own approach to opponents on the mat over years of wrestling and then bjj. I tend to go into autopilot on the mats and would always train with an “if/then” mentality so that I could react almost without thinking and, thus, with much greater speed to a particular counter. Also, the more you drill a particular chain or series of branching chains of counters and responses the more proficient one becomes at them. While all my experience is on the mats, having a similar algorithm that is simple and adaptable to different situations in real life is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping would be produced by this thread. So, again, many thanks!!!
To answer your question about trying new schools, I went to a free “give it a try” bjj class with a training partner who used to train at Joslin’s. It turned out to be a beautiful, clean facility and the pedigree of their instructors seems awesome. However, it is definitely sport bjj focused. I’m sure that probably 99% of their clientele are looking for exactly that kind of training and they’d be stupid to not cater to it.
What I’ve been doing is drilling about 7-8 different techniques on the feet with that same training partner (and when he’s not available, with my wife) some of which I gleaned from your previous post where you listed techniques that you have found to work. As I previously mentioned, what I’m trying to develop is a small number of “go to” techniques that I can use on my feet to control a belligerent without killing or injuring him all while leaving an easy escape route for me to release and run if weapons or friends appear. In your job as a bouncer, you have to restrain and remove people whereas I’m only thinking of neutralizing an attacker while controlling distance and not getting too tied up with him for an extended period. Therefore, I’ve been working a couple trips and low amplitude throws and a couple transitions from an arm drag to take the back and produce a choke. I figure that if I’ve gained control of a guy from the back on the feet, tying up with him in this position is less risky as I can control his movement and still be able to see a lot of what’s going on around me. Being choked is an extremely unsettling feeling for most people. Unless you are very used to it (ie. train bjj, mma, etc) I would believe that when an average individual has an arm around their neck they would most likely have all their focus on using their hands to get that arm off and not necessarily use them to draw a weapon. However, this is just a gut feeling and since you’ve had multiple people in this position, you can obviously speak about whether this is true or not.
Basically, I want to be able to deflect attacks and give another guy enough reason to think that continuing to tangle with me is not worth the potential harm and effort.
I just want to thank twojarslave for all his input here. Really appreciated my man.
I follow your posts from a some time now, but english is not my first language and it requires some degree of effort to write here so usually I just read.
I wanted to ask you if you can talk a bit about recognising that point in some situation when you realise it definetly WOULD become violent.
I have a background in Krav Maga with some great instructor here in Europe, and while i am aware it is highly individual depending of particular situation yet still I am never sure I understood that point when you can avoid violence(preferably) or if not , to be sure to take action first as in my opiniion this is crucial.
I am totaly non violent type and I dont have any real life experience fighting, and what I try to say that Iin a potential dangerous situation I want to avoid fight at any cost(my ego included) but if that is absolutely not possible, to recognise it to be able to act first.
Thanks again for all your input on combat forum
Hey you’re welcome fellas. You both ask some good questions that I wanted to wait to answer until I had time to sit down at a keyboard and think it through.
This was basically plan A as a bouncer, assuming I couldn’t coerce them to leave peacefully. Simply having someone in a good clinch from behind ended MANY “fights” that might have involved more violence, injury and overall bad outcomes had I approached it from another position. This is especially true if you’ve got a significant edge on size/strength, which was usually the case with me.
As you already noted, escalation paths are here as well, mainly takedowns and the choke.
MOST people quit fighting on me when I made it physically clear I had them under MY control, either via a clinch or putting them on their ass. I only followed the jiu jitsu algorithm all the way to the mount once. Last customer in the bar, no concerns with going to the ground because I knew nobody else was in play.
Turns out that dude knew a thing or two, like how to defend a RNC and how to escape my side control. It was also clear he was there to start shit, because that’s exactly what he did and he waited until the bar was empty to do it. Didn’t seem drunk at all, either. Who knows what motivates an asshole like that?
I had to put him on the ground twice before I ended up in mount with his left arm pinned for an Americana. To his credit, he also knew exactly how FUCKED he was when I got him in mount and just said “I quit”.
He even shook my hand afterwards and apologized, realizing that I could have done life-altering damage to him from the position I had him in. It was the threat of shoulder derangement and and severe beating from the mount that ended that particular fight. Other fights that began with the same tricep grab → arm drag → back take sequence ended with a “whoa whoa whoa chill bro” roughly once second after I clinched them up.
You just don’t know what someone can do or how much fight they have in until it all goes down.
This is a question worth pondering for sure. In my opinion, it depends on context.
If I’m out and about minding my own business, I’m generally looking to avoid violence rather than insert myself into it. I’m not going to put my bouncer hat on if something goes down while I’m having a drink with friends. So that’s the simple answer, just get away from anything that seems dangerous.
That’s not always an option though. My only severe beating took place many years before I ever picked up a barbell, worked a bouncer shift or stepped on to the jiu jitsu mats. It was a failure on my part to recognize the signs of violence that are now plain as day to me. It was a pickup basketball game in my neighborhood where a substitution turned into an argument and I was playing “peacemaker”, trying to get the aggressive guy to calm down.
Then he got in my face. Started advancing on me, shouting and screaming nonsense. I was just walking backwards, probably saying “chill” or something like that. Then he clocked me. Then he hit me again. Then I went down and he kept hitting me until HE decided to stop.
I had no response. I just got my ass whooped. BAD. Ended up pressing charges and the guy went away for over 9 years after it all shook out. The beating was bad enough they hit him with a felony assault. I found out from the prosecutor that he had already spent 9 years in state prison and was on probation when he assaulted me. At least there was some silver lining in that I may have gotten beaten to hell, but at least it was by a legit hardass. He was also an unhinged asshole, but it’s not like some cupcake messed up my face.
What didn’t I do there? Get my hands up, for one. This is where prayer stance is important. You need to be ready to handle a punch if you think there’s even a remote possibility of violence. I wasn’t and I got ROCKED by the first hit and it was all downhill from there. I didn’t entertain the possibility that it could get violent. Getting beaten up over a neighborhood pickup game wasn’t even a concern of mine, even as the guy was getting in my face. My hands were not ready for violence, my stance was not ready for violence and my mind was not ready for violence. I paid the price right then, right there.
I suppose its not surprising that I eventually started lifting weights, got strong as shit and then learned how to fight and took a bouncing job. I feel like I’ve righted the wrong that put me in such a bad spot that day, which was the last time I experienced violence as an adult that wasn’t bar/work violence.
With a high 500’s deadlift, hundreds of hours of mat time and a much stronger fighting spirit, I’m 90 percent sure I’d eat that same guy for lunch, and I’m damn sure I wouldn’t freeze up after one punch to the face.
Who knows though? There’s no guarantees when things get violent.
@hogar I realize I didn’t actually answer your question regarding when to initiate action or not.
This is a tricky subject that depends on context. You should also know what the laws relating to self-defense are in your jurisdiction.
Where I live (Maine, USA), there is no line in the sand. I’m not a lawyer and I’m certainly over-simplifying things, but the Reasonable Person Standard is what citizens here get held to. Can you stand in front of a judge and explain why you had to use the violence that you did?
If so, you’re good. If not or if the justification isn’t there, you’ll be on the wrong side of the law. If you initiate violence in defense of self (i.e. some guy is following you, won’t leave you alone, won’t let you get away but isn’t actively harming you), it must be a reasonable response.
Shoving that guy and saying “Hey, leave me alone!” would probably be considered a reasonable response. If it escalates from there, well, responding to that is reasonable too. Maybe you gotta choke that motherfucker out after things get heated, but you can explain that it started with his threatening behavior and your reasonable response of a shove and verbal command.
Pulling out your gun and shooting him in the kneecap would not be reasonable.
If an adult male swings on you, grabs you, shoves you etc, you are more or less in the clear to defend yourself using reasonable force. Beat them, choke them, throw them, do what you need to do to stop the threat and make safe.
Let’s say 9 year old girl behaves the same way as the adult male who just assaulted you. You’ll still be able to defend yourself, but choking out that 9 year old girl who hit you doesn’t seem reasonable at all, does it?
Oh and one more thing for @CMdad.
If you have $15 to spare my instructor’s instructor has put his entire curriculum online. This is the core material that’s emphasized through blue belt level at his school. In VERY simple terms, white belt is learning the individual techniques on the curriculum, blue belt is chaining them together and developing conditional responses.
Purple is where they start incorporating stuff off of the curriculum. They can start eating at the table of sport jiu jitsu or just incorporating more savagery that’s not on the curriculum.
The production value isn’t the highest but the quality of information is. Given your stated goals, I think you’ll get at least $15 out of it each month and there’s a TON of stand-up drills and sequences you can work with your partners. Headlock escapes, arm-drag drills, sprawling, shooting, and all kinds of nasty work you can do from the clinch, like planning for the headbutt when you close the distance.
I think it’s interesting to note what is and is NOT on the curriculum. There’s nobody I know who is more authoritative on bare-handed self-defense than this guy. He’s Darth Fucking Vader in a gi. He drop seoi nage’d me with one of his arms in a sling and then subjected me to the nastiest pressure I’ve ever felt. He runs the local hardass factory.
I fucking love this guy, TBH. He’s got a really good set of ideas about training for violence, and it’s hard to argue with someone who leads from the front.
@twojarslave thank you so much for this link!!! This looks like an unbelievable resource and exactly the kind of thing I’ve been looking for. Im looking forward to really diving deep down into this material.
I really appreciate the time and consideration you’ve put into this thread. You never know, it may end up saving someone’s life, possibly mine or my family’s.
Also, on a side note, it’s interesting how many of the world’s top martial artists, MMA fighters, champion boxers etc. started on their path because of an experience like the one you had with that felon. GSP, Mike Tyson and Frank Shamrock are just a few of them who have stated that they turned to combat sports and martial arts as a means to protect themselves from future attacks after being beaten senseless. GSP in particular has written in great detail about how he actually hates fighting and is terrified of losing and being physically and emotionally beaten and that is why he trains with such obsessive relentlessness. The main thing that these guys and yourself did was to choose to not accept victim status. You chose to take as much control over your life and security as is possible. That is the difference between a lamb and a wolf.
Last Friday I had an altercation with a guy double my size and even with 3 years of jitz under the belt going to the ground didn’t even cross my mind . I think jitz should come in when you’ve been tackled to the ground and your in shit . Or otherwise when you’ve softened up your opponent with blinding strikes and his stunned then you go in for the arm bar or whatever . I roll with guys who are savages on the ground but can’t throw a proper right cross. I’d say for street defense you need to know how to grapple as a last resort or if things go sideways but deffinatly get some type of striking classes under the belt