well from a bodybuilding view. the iron guru vince gironda was against normal squats, and would kick you out of his gym for squating. you could front squat or sissy squat etc but no regular squats. the reason being on some people squats can build an un asthetic build, he thought it spread the hips and built the glutes to much, or somthing along those lines, the gym owner at my local gym is into his power lifting and has massive glutes, not a look i want to go for, when getting on stage. i squat but i also mix it up a bit as well. my glutes arnt overpowering my lower body, i enjoy squats to much to drop them.
[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness [/quote]
Maybe the OP wanted some other opinions?
I can probably count on 1 hand the number of good squatters at my gym.
If you can squat with good technique and don’t have any injury issues, then it would seem crazy to scrap squatting.
[quote]iwong wrote:
Since people recognize that MB trains athletes, then why would the bodybuilding forum really care that he is against back squats? Its no different than when CW says you don’t need direct arm work. Simply a different target audience.[/quote]
Well, because, even if you train bbuilding, you are prone to get injuries. It might be the case that, after a back injury, the leg press is not fully doing it for you (everybody’s physical qualities are different) at that particular time in your training history, and you need something along the line of a squat, but not a back squat. [caveat: I’m just pulling the leg press hypothetical scenario out of my ass for the sake of making an argument]
You simply can’t pigeonhole people (or topics) into neatly divided, mutually exclusive target audiences. Good for writing articles, but when you down to the person, each has to make a judgment call (hopefully based on experience) on what might work best (or be more appropriate) for a particular goal under specific circumstances.
Me thinks.
People should listen less to Mike Boyle and more to Rippetoe
[quote]ApplCobbler wrote:
I’ve thrown my back out squatting twice in the last three years. Due to factors like my lack of flexibility(which I’ve been working on of late to correct imbalances) and the fact that I have a long torso and stubby femur, which makes me unable to balance the weight properly over my center of movement (from the heel up to the shoulder blade), I’ve switched almost completely over to Single Leg Split Squats. He is right about the lower back being an inhibitor, and there’s been evidence shown on many articles on T-Nation by the authors that single leg training is really beneficial.
I’ve gotten size and strength gains in each plain of motion involved with my legs, increased my vertical by an inch, and have gotten notably more explosive in my running. I can feel the work I’m doing with my quads and glutes much better than when I do a traditional back squat, and there’s much less stress on my lower back. I don’t care about my squat numbers being over 400, I’d rather just have appreciable size and a good amount of power. And I’d also rather keep my back than sacrifice it at the tender age of 22 for some ‘holy grail of lifting’[/quote]
Wouldn’t having a long torso and short femurs HELP you keep your center of mass over your center of pressure without excessive forward torso lean? The problem is more likely the longer torso creating a larger bending moment in flexion about the lumbar spine which you are unable to counter with muscle forces, IE need a stronger back.
This also fits in more nicely with Coach Boyle’s supposition.
[quote]dankid wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
cueball wrote:
And as far as the lower back being a limiting factor, why not focus on strengthening the weak link instead of sidestepping it?
Bingo.
Yes, but if the reason you are squatting is to run faster or jump higher, you are really only concerned with leg/hip strength. The weak link is only a weak link for the squat, not for what a lot of these people are training for.
I dunno about going “heavy” on single leg stuff being more risky. Sure, you probably wont be grinding out a 1RM or 3RM on pistols, but then again this isnt the only way to get strong or big.
I think it all comes down to matching your goals with what you are doing in the gym and finding a compromise between risk and reward.
Im sure a lot strength coaches dont have at risk athletes doing barbell bench, but many of these athletes will still get strong and big with good alternatives.
I dont think this will be the end of squatting at all, but maybe at least people will realize that it isn’t an essential lift so much, and that there are alternatives.
**Also, I wonder if MB has most of his athletes do deadlifts. Anybody know?[/quote]
Well, he actually addresses the “T-Nation crowd” when saying don’t do back squats. If you want to argue that single leg exercises are better for athletes, well go ahead. I don’t even have an issue with the lower risk of injury angle.
I DO have a problem with him saying that squats “are not a lower body exercise, they are a low back exercise.” Bull shit.
[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
No shit lol. Even a weak squat of 315 would be a rediculous lunge.
A bit of advice: learn to spell first before attempting to mock others![/quote]
Bit of advice: when talking about your own results, be sure to have actually achieved something first.
here’s a reason TO squat: most people’s lower back is a weak point in everything they do. strengthen it. back squatting is one piece of the puzzle to accomplish this, as well as an overall mass builder(for people who are into that sort of thing)
Oh no, another excuse for the “I don’t squat because ________?” crowd.
i have the cure for all of those folks that think back squats are too hard or uncomfortable- try a variation that is much harder. once you go back to back squats you will think you are cheating. below is my new favorite squat variation. these things kick ass and make resting the bar on your traps during a back squat seem like a pleasure.
zercher squats- paused at bottom.
Zercher’s are brutal.
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
i have the cure for all of those folks that think back squats are too hard or uncomfortable- try a variation that is much harder. once you go back to back squats you will think you are cheating. below is my new favorite squat variation. these things kick ass and make resting the bar on your traps during a back squat seem like a pleasure.
zercher squats- paused at bottom.
Nice, i love em. Also, front squats are brutal on my low back.
For everyone else. If you want to choose to ignore MB’s advice, thats fine. But for those of us that are smarter and keeping an open mind, its an interesting topic, and we’ll have to see what he ends up doing with this. There are things in the past that he’s done that he changed his point of view on and switched back. This may be one of those things.
Deadlifts USED to be the standard as the “best” lift, but somewhere along the way people decided that squats were better. It might be because the form is harder, or maybe because they can do 1/4 squats and call themselves strong, but there is almost nothing a squat can do for you that deadlifts and some single leg work cant do BETTER. And if you’ve read any of Gray Cook’s stuff, deadlifting is more functional and more of a natural movement for most people.
If I had the option to do so, my leg workouts would pretty much consist of just deadlifting, uni-lateral work, and a ton of sled/car pushing and pulling.
I wonder how many of these people who have concluded that back squatting isnt for them dont even have the flexibility to do a back squat. For alot of people, its one thing not to do a back squat, its another thing not to be ABLE to do a back squat. Barring limiting injury or the odd misproportioned individual, I think that back squatting is not only good to do, but is, in and of itself, evidence that your body works correctly enough to perform an important movement.
One leg exercises skirt alot of the problems that become obvious when back squatting, but they dont completely solve them. For instance, if you dont have the flexibility to back squat, you dont have the flexibility to do any other compound leg exercises IMO. The only difference is that back squatting demands that you have the flexiblity. Step Ups, Lunges etc, are often just much less efficient than they would be had you adequate flexibility.
When I had Coach Boyle as a professor he talked about how he didn’t deadlift off the floor any more because his kids were consistently butchering the movement. I see where he is coming from with safety first, but these are some important core exercises that he advocated eliminating. If I were him I would make my athletes stretch and watch their form. If they havent been doing their soft tissue work and stretching well enough to be able to perform the movement, dont let them do it, do something they cant hurt themselves on.
I was also wondering about spinal erector strength, conventional deadlifts and back squats are two of the better back builders there are. Sure maybe the back is a weak link in these exercises, but I dont think avoiding them is the right way to fix it.
I love when people try to diss the squat areound T-Nation people.
Mike Boyle has NOTHING to do with bodybuilding, like many of the coaches who post on T-Nation. Some of the info they give is extremely valuable for athletes, I’ve used some of it for my clients who are football players as well as regular joe’s. But I can’t fucking stand some of the shit that gets tossed around by these guys.
This is no longer a bodybuilding site, hasn’t been for a long time. I would love to see CT push more articles and some other legit coaches and bodybuilders, but it ain’t gonna happen. Sorry for the rant. I’m just excited for the ironman tommorow.
[quote]martyh wrote:
Mike Boyle has NOTHING to do with bodybuilding, like many of the coaches who post on T-Nation. Some of the info they give is extremely valuable for athletes, I’ve used some of it for my clients who are football players as well as regular joe’s. But I can’t fucking stand some of the shit that gets tossed around by these guys.
This is no longer a bodybuilding site, hasn’t been for a long time. I would love to see CT push more articles and some other legit coaches and bodybuilders, but it ain’t gonna happen. Sorry for the rant. I’m just excited for the ironman tommorow.[/quote]
Yes, and I thought I remembered TC making a statement that this site was going to get back to being about building muscle, hence the fact that it went back to T-MUSCLE.
He might not have anything to do with bodybuilding, but he does write articles for this site. Either way I don’t agree with doing away squats. In our training we always start with a closed chain exercise (ex; Squats or variations) followed by an open chain unilateral exercise. I personally think MB is great but sometimes he over complicating things that lead to athletes being actually weaker or having less power. I also have to remember he’s not only a strength coach but a physical therapist. Extremely intelligent in his theories.
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
i have the cure for all of those folks that think back squats are too hard or uncomfortable- try a variation that is much harder. once you go back to back squats you will think you are cheating. below is my new favorite squat variation. these things kick ass and make resting the bar on your traps during a back squat seem like a pleasure.
zercher squats- paused at bottom.
Staley Training Systems- zercher squats 225x6x3 - YouTube[ /quote]
Zercher anything’s are most certainly an excellent cure for chronic sandinvaginitis.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
maraudermeat wrote:
i have the cure for all of those folks that think back squats are too hard or uncomfortable- try a variation that is much harder. once you go back to back squats you will think you are cheating. below is my new favorite squat variation. these things kick ass and make resting the bar on your traps during a back squat seem like a pleasure.
zercher squats- paused at bottom.
Zercher anything’s are most certainly an excellent cure for chronic sandinvaginitis.[/quote]
yes they are… i always get a chuckle when i here that squats are just too darn hard or they don’t feel right or i hurt myself doing them…
once you’ve given things like heavy front squats, front squats off pins, front squats against bands, zerchers off pins, paused zerchers… regular back squats are a joy.
[quote]intenseone wrote:
. In our training we always start with a closed chain exercise (ex; Squats or variations) followed by an open chain unilateral exercise.[/quote]
Not all uni-lateral exercises are open chain. Im not sure if thats what you are suggesting here.