[quote]Kardash wrote:
Can someone first give a definition of what a ‘CNS burn-out’ exactly is, or is supposed to be? I think most ppl just use it as a fancy term for ‘muscle fatigue’.
When you use your eyes very intense, it’s not your optical nerve that get’s fatigues - it’s the muscles around your retina/eyeball.
Nerves can’t get fatigues, it’s just physicly not possible.
[/quote]
Is English your second or third language?
I think it is difficult to tell what is the reason for failure, with repeated daily maximal exertions. Certainly, the CNS may play a role, as can the endocrine, as well as the muscles. Would knowing which component failed change your treatment plan? Can a person have purely ‘CNS fatigue’ without fatiguing other systems?
Beef
[quote]beefcakemdphd wrote:
I think it is difficult to tell what is the reason for failure, with repeated daily maximal exertions. Certainly, the CNS may play a role, as can the endocrine, as well as the muscles. Would knowing which component failed change your treatment plan? Can a person have purely ‘CNS fatigue’ without fatiguing other systems?
Beef[/quote]
But doesn’t it seems plausible that some types of training would burn out some systems before others as the broscience seems to suggest?
[quote]Kardash wrote:
Can someone first give a definition of what a ‘CNS burn-out’ exactly is, or is supposed to be? I think most ppl just use it as a fancy term for ‘muscle fatigue’. [/quote]
In a review out of the University of Queensland, Neural Fatigue (NF) was defined as an involuntary reduction in voluntary activation.
[quote]Kardash wrote:
Nerves can’t get fatigues, it’s just physicly not possible.
[/quote]
That’s odd, when I google Neural Fatigue none of those resources agree with you
[quote]black_angus1 wrote:
[quote]Kardash wrote:
Can someone first give a definition of what a ‘CNS burn-out’ exactly is, or is supposed to be? I think most ppl just use it as a fancy term for ‘muscle fatigue’.
When you use your eyes very intense, it’s not your optical nerve that get’s fatigues - it’s the muscles around your retina/eyeball.
Nerves can’t get fatigues, it’s just physicly not possible.
[/quote]
Is English your second or third language?[/quote]
Fifth actually. First Turkish, 2nd Dutch, 3rd. German, 4th French, and then came English. Why lol?
[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
[quote]Kardash wrote:
Can someone first give a definition of what a ‘CNS burn-out’ exactly is, or is supposed to be? I think most ppl just use it as a fancy term for ‘muscle fatigue’. [/quote]
In a review out of the University of Queensland, Neural Fatigue (NF) was defined as an involuntary reduction in voluntary activation.
[quote]Kardash wrote:
Nerves can’t get fatigues, it’s just physicly not possible.
[/quote]
That’s odd, when I google Neural Fatigue none of those resources agree with you[/quote]
I was confused in terms. I think you refer to fatigue of the synaps. Now don’t take my word for it, I haven’t majored in Biology or Neuro-science, but as far as I can recall from my classes - those synaptic systems dont have that role in the CNS. The fact that certain synapses can get fatigued doesn’t mean your CNS can get fatigued. I’ve yet to see a case where CNS-fatigue was proven.
Semantics, semantics, semantics. All I know is that when I max DL, i think i get “CNS burnout”, whatever the hell that actually means in a physiological sense.
Is there any proof for the Squats vs DL argument inside the CNS burnout debate?
[quote]americaninsweden wrote:
Semantics, semantics, semantics. All I know is that when I max DL, i think i get “CNS burnout”, whatever the hell that actually means in a physiological sense.
Is there any proof for the Squats vs DL argument inside the CNS burnout debate? [/quote]
Just curious, how do you sense the difference between that what you call ‘CNS burnout’ and simple muscle fatigue?
[quote]Kardash wrote:
[quote]americaninsweden wrote:
Semantics, semantics, semantics. All I know is that when I max DL, i think i get “CNS burnout”, whatever the hell that actually means in a physiological sense.
Is there any proof for the Squats vs DL argument inside the CNS burnout debate? [/quote]
Just curious, how do you sense the difference between that what you call ‘CNS burnout’ and simple muscle fatigue? [/quote]
My definition of muscle fatigue is something like this, if i squat heavy 3 or 4 days in a week and am tired but take a day or two off and feel refreshed and strong.
Whatever CNS burnout is seems to keep me beat mentally and physically for a week or longer but the muscles feel fine after the first day or two.
I am not sure if either of those are accurate definitions but that’s how i define them to myself.
[quote]americaninsweden wrote:
My definition of muscle fatigue is something like this, if i squat heavy 3 or 4 days in a week and am tired but take a day or two off and feel refreshed and strong.
Whatever CNS burnout is seems to keep me beat mentally and physically for a week or longer but the muscles feel fine after the first day or two.
I am not sure if either of those are accurate definitions but that’s how i define them to myself.[/quote]
So it’s something you think you feel, but you really have no clue.
Also, just so you guys know, nerves, by definition, are not part of the CNS.
[quote]black_angus1 wrote:
[quote]americaninsweden wrote:
My definition of muscle fatigue is something like this, if i squat heavy 3 or 4 days in a week and am tired but take a day or two off and feel refreshed and strong.
Whatever CNS burnout is seems to keep me beat mentally and physically for a week or longer but the muscles feel fine after the first day or two.
I am not sure if either of those are accurate definitions but that’s how i define them to myself.[/quote]
So it’s something you think you feel, but you really have no clue.
Also, just so you guys know, nerves, by definition, are not part of the CNS.
[/quote]
Pretty much. I could call it black horse death instead of CNS burnout, doesn’t really matter to me.
[quote]americaninsweden wrote:
[quote]black_angus1 wrote:
[quote]americaninsweden wrote:
My definition of muscle fatigue is something like this, if i squat heavy 3 or 4 days in a week and am tired but take a day or two off and feel refreshed and strong.
Whatever CNS burnout is seems to keep me beat mentally and physically for a week or longer but the muscles feel fine after the first day or two.
I am not sure if either of those are accurate definitions but that’s how i define them to myself.[/quote]
So it’s something you think you feel, but you really have no clue.
Also, just so you guys know, nerves, by definition, are not part of the CNS.
[/quote]
Pretty much. I could call it black horse death instead of CNS burnout, doesn’t really matter to me.[/quote]
That would be more accurate I guess lol.
Something just hit me… PEDs. PEDs generally effect hormones/muscles to enhance performance. And they work. Whereas if CNS-burnout really existed, these drugs wouldn’t work. The CNS would be your bottleneck.
Yet, every PED-taker I know can work heavier weights, and does them more often.
[quote]americaninsweden wrote:
[quote]black_angus1 wrote:
[quote]americaninsweden wrote:
My definition of muscle fatigue is something like this, if i squat heavy 3 or 4 days in a week and am tired but take a day or two off and feel refreshed and strong.
Whatever CNS burnout is seems to keep me beat mentally and physically for a week or longer but the muscles feel fine after the first day or two.
I am not sure if either of those are accurate definitions but that’s how i define them to myself.[/quote]
So it’s something you think you feel, but you really have no clue.
Also, just so you guys know, nerves, by definition, are not part of the CNS.
[/quote]
Pretty much. I could call it black horse death instead of CNS burnout, doesn’t really matter to me.[/quote]
I call it losing your joo-joo. Whenever I go over 600 on deadlifts, the next day I feel like a truck hit me. I don’t sleep well and I never wake up rested. I feel groggy, my hands feel swollen and my grip feels weak. I realize this is far from scientific, but it is a consistent pattern. This is why I’ll pull heavy maybe once a month.
Talking with other lifters, this is not an uncommon feeling.
[quote]Kardash wrote:
That would be more accurate I guess lol.
Something just hit me… PEDs. PEDs generally effect hormones/muscles to enhance performance. And they work. Whereas if CNS-burnout really existed, these drugs wouldn’t work. The CNS would be your bottleneck.
Yet, every PED-taker I know can work heavier weights, and does them more often.
[/quote]
The problem with your argument is that PED’s also enhance recovery.
A common issue I see is that people don’t realize that the ability to recover is a trainable quality, just like maximal strength or force development. This is a big part of the so-called Westside method and the reasoning behind extra workouts and increasing work capacity.
[quote]black_angus1 wrote:
[quote]Kardash wrote:
That would be more accurate I guess lol.
Something just hit me… PEDs. PEDs generally effect hormones/muscles to enhance performance. And they work. Whereas if CNS-burnout really existed, these drugs wouldn’t work. The CNS would be your bottleneck.
Yet, every PED-taker I know can work heavier weights, and does them more often.
[/quote]
The problem with your argument is that PED’s also enhance recovery.
A common issue I see is that people don’t realize that the ability to recover is a trainable quality, just like maximal strength or force development. This is a big part of the so-called Westside method and the reasoning behind extra workouts and increasing work capacity.
[/quote]
In what way could PED’s enhance ‘CNS-recovery’?
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I understand that some people are interested in the “why”/“how”, but to contest the very existence of “it” (forget about naming conventions) seems odd.
For those in doubt, maybe they should try the “Bulgarian” approach of maxing every day to experience it first hand. You know when you have “it”, trust me.
ps: For those interested in the “why”/“how”: I can imagine that “it” has similar pathways as the aftermath of abusing strong stimulants (amp, cocaine, meth, etc.).
[/quote]
Best post…
[quote]Kardash wrote:
Something just hit me… PEDs. PEDs generally effect hormones/muscles to enhance performance. And they work. Whereas if CNS-burnout really existed, these drugs wouldn’t work. The CNS would be your bottleneck.
Yet, every PED-taker I know can work heavier weights, and does them more often.
[/quote]
I’ve actually often wondered this. The excuse people give for things like the success of the Bulgarians (maxing out 10 times a week type stuff) is PEDs. But they say a normal person will burn out their CNS doing it. Do PEDs help the CNS somehow? Something about that seems off.
But I will say that I’m experimenting with frequent maxing type of thing, and so far I’ve been feeling groggy and like I’m on the edge of being sick.
Part of it, that I have read and what I think most trainers fail to understand, is that burn out is a response to psychological stress, not exclusively physical stress. Part of the idea of the super high frequency training is to purposefully avoid the psychological side. Maxing out in the Bulgarian type of system and maxing out in a Westside style system are 2 entirely different things. You are not supposed to ever psyche yourself up in the Bulgarian method. Basically, if you are nervous about a weight, you don’t do it. Additionally, if you are max squatting every day, it mentally becomes routine.
If you are mugged at gunpoint, after your adrenaline comes down, I’m willing to bet you feel exhausted. If you avoid mental stress when lifting heavy, you can avoid much of the “CNS burnout” syndrome.
I’m sure I’ll sound dumb but what’s PED?
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I’m sure I’ll sound dumb but what’s PED?[/quote]
Performance enhancing drug. I.e. stahroidz.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
But I will say that I’m experimenting with frequent maxing type of thing, and so far I’ve been feeling groggy and like I’m on the edge of being sick.
Part of it, that I have read and what I think most trainers fail to understand, is that burn out is a response to psychological stress, not exclusively physical stress. Part of the idea of the super high frequency training is to purposefully avoid the psychological side. Maxing out in the Bulgarian type of system and maxing out in a Westside style system are 2 entirely different things. You are not supposed to ever psyche yourself up in the Bulgarian method. Basically, if you are nervous about a weight, you don’t do it. Additionally, if you are max squatting every day, it mentally becomes routine.
If you are mugged at gunpoint, after your adrenaline comes down, I’m willing to bet you feel exhausted. If you avoid mental stress when lifting heavy, you can avoid much of the “CNS burnout” syndrome.
[/quote]
This makes more sense. without psychological arousal I’ve never felt drained the day after heavy lifting, and currently I’m squatting/deadlifting 3x/week and have not had issues with feeling shitty. this is the end of the second month.