[quote]earthquake wrote:
Brick it doesnt say you didn’t use lighter, fuck, i meant ADDITIONAL, like
50x12
60x10
70x8
then
80
90 , etc.
Im really shit at this. sorry.[/quote]
Those VERY light sets are used for the FIRST exercise in a session. After that, there’s no use to use such light weights to warmup unless you move onto a new muscle group.
Bricknyce,
Damn must of missed it. Thanks for reposting it though.
Using your example,
255x10
285x10
315x10
Since, you get 10 with the top set, do you increase the top set by 10% next workout and just adjust your working warmups accordingly until you can get 10 reps with the top set again and continue?
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Mr. Martian wrote: “If professor X sees this, I’d really like to hear his thoughts on this. It seems that a lot of the confusion stems from, where to start your work ramping steps, and how you go about progressing from there. With one all out set, its a little more concrete as to where to add reps/weight.”
I’ve given OVER A DOZEN examples of this, including in THIS THREAD for BOTH bodybuilding and working up to a 1 to 5 rep max!
It’s also been shown over 100 times in articles and other threads by other posters.
I wrote before that jumps are 5 to 10% of the top working set. So here’s a lesson in basic math.
10 percent of 100 is 10 and 5 percent is 5. So you figure out your sets by subtracting 10 from 100. Here’s an example:
80
90
100
GOD HELP US![/quote]
You can refer to the Bodybuilding Bible to see how I progress.
Ten percent progress in weight for a lift is enormous and unrealistic except for complete newbs! Imagine squatting 405 for 10 and thinking you can squat 445 next week and then 500 the next week, and so on and so on.
I aim to increase reps until I’m out of the rep range. So if I aim for 8-12 reps and manage to do 13, I add 5 pounds the exercise next week, maybe drop back down to 8, and then progress from there. This goes on for 5 to 6 weeks, and then I train 1 to 2 reps short of failure for 2 weeks just to maintain what I gained and training with the expectation and knowledge that gains are NOT linear. So you’re better off not even trying to make them linear!
sweet thread
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]mr popular wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Oh ffs, he’s talked about every tiny detail in “bodypart once weekly” in the t-cell as well as in the BBB thread.
In 3 weeks you’re going to see someone else post about their training and get confused all-over again… This has been going on and on…
Hopeless.
At your stage your routine is the least-important thing… Do you really think that switching from one ok routine to the next is going to suddenly, magically cause you to make major progress?
[/quote]
I don’t think anyone is “confused”. I asked how MODOK trains because I’ve had a similar experience and was curious about it, and from what I can tell that’s all anyone else was wondering too.[/quote]
Not you. Pumped340… The same thing has been going on forever with him…
[/quote]
Wait…what? I have no idea what your talking about nor have I been switching around routines. I asked the same question the 2 people above me asked (not even a question actually).
By the way, for this thread, I was listening to an interview with Bill grant today and a question about how he would go about a 5x10 came up. He said something along the lines of “Me and everyone I trained with at the time might do something like 15-20 reps with 135, 10-15 with 225, 10 reps with 275 and then 10 reps with 365 all out and then maybe a set of 6 or so with 385 right after that. Or we might do a drop set going back down. We would generally keep the reps in that 10-12 rep range throughout”
Thought it was interesting anyway. Nothing new obviously.
Bricknyce,
I’ll definitely go back to that thread and re-read it (spring break baby!)
Yeah, I didn’t mention progress being linear. As long as I’m getting somewhere within a couple of weeks then I’m good.
I have the same approach. Since I’ve been ramping up to one top set, I usually start with a weight that I can get for about 3-4 times and put work into it until I can get 10 reps. Once I achieve this, I’ll bump the weight and start over.
In your case I’m assuming you also try to break the records with the last set, and not with any of the working ramp up sets. I’m also assuming that if this is the case, you’ll just adjust your warming up work sets according to that top set later.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
You can refer to the Bodybuilding Bible to see how I progress.
Ten percent progress in weight for a lift is enormous and unrealistic except for complete newbs! Imagine squatting 405 for 10 and thinking you can squat 445 next week and then 500 the next week, and so on and so on.
I aim to increase reps until I’m out of the rep range. So if I aim for 8-12 reps and manage to do 13, I add 5 pounds the exercise next week, maybe drop back down to 8, and then progress from there. This goes on for 5 to 6 weeks, and then I train 1 to 2 reps short of failure for 2 weeks just to maintain what I gained and training with the expectation and knowledge that gains are NOT linear. So you’re better off not even trying to make them linear![/quote]
I used to train how Modok mentioned, basically all sets besides warm ups to failure. But I stopped this after reading the endless posts on here about the “proper way” to ramp. Honestly though…whichever helps me progress fastest.
One way I don’t particularly like though is the straight sets with the same weight for all sets. So whether 4x10 is 135x10, 185x10, 225x10, 275x10 or 275x10, 255x10, etc… back down apparently is fine but when it’s something like 4x10x225 that seems to be significantly harder to make progress on, and is pretty boring lol.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
As I’ve written before, my jumps are about 10 percent of my top set. Usually I’ll use a 5% jump between my second to last and final set. This does NOT induce fatigue for me, but rather provides me with a set that is close enough to my top set to give me a feel for it. I’ve noticed no detriment to performance for years doing this and when doing max effort work in a powerlifting workout is suggested as well.
[/quote]
Brick how long do you generally rest between sets?
[quote]MODOK wrote:
I’ve always trained that way too, for one reason- if I do it the opposite way ( ramp up doing for example 275 x 10 and 300 x 10) then the heavy set I will never be able to match the performance than if I just go for it with a light warm up. [/quote]
This is what I was saying earlier about the confusion with reps staying the same rather than going down as you get closer to the max set. I guess for Brick it doesn’t effect him but I know if 300x10 was what I could get absolutely maxing out fresh then I really doubt I could I get it 2-3 minutes after 275x10. Not that it wouldn’t still have a training effect though
[quote]rasturai wrote:
You just said it yourself Bricknyce…you use 1-5 reps on a lift to get strong in a lift.
The squat was just an example. I usually NEVER go over 6 reps on a main movement. If I get 6 reps, the next session I increase the weight until I can only get 4 reps. and then I go from there.
ALL my assistance work is based on 3-4 sets of 6-12 reps. example DB presses
80x10, 100x10, 125x10 - the other 2 sets were working weight still, and I’m getting a good feeling. but the last set was the top one. OF COURSE I DID NOT warmup for that 80lb dumbbell cause I just finished doing a bench press max of 5 reps with whatever weight.
The only thing I was saying is that for a MAIN MOVEMENT…if my MAIN FOCUS is to increase bench press I wouldn’t do a bunch of sets/reps.
I would work up to a 5RM
135x8
185x3
225x5
265x3
295x1
325x1
350x5** top set of 5
After this I would do some DB presses…3 sets of 6-8 - starting with 80’s or 90’s cause I’m already warmuped up and work up to my next set of 6-8 hard reps.
Do you agrree with this, this is how I do all my training…assistance work is different compared to main movement is it not?
Or would you do 3-4 sets of 3-5 reps (work up until you hit that max) to help with the bench press)
example
135x8
185x3
225x5
265x1
295x5 (first work set)
320x5 (2nd work set)
350x3 (3rd work set)
Of course I can’t get all 5 reps with 350 now because I am a bit fatigued…
What are your thoughts on this?[/quote]
I think Brick answered your question pretty well, but I understand where you’re coming from. As I mentioned, in your 2nd example I also wouldn’t be able to get 5 reps still with the 350 and that fatigue would be even greater from earlier sets if it was 3x12 or something rather than 3x5.
Also, the outlines of ramping that CC has given tons of times follow your first example more than anything, although sometimes with a higher rep 2nd “work” set.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]rasturai wrote:
You just said it yourself Bricknyce…you use 1-5 reps on a lift to get strong in a lift.
The squat was just an example. I usually NEVER go over 6 reps on a main movement. If I get 6 reps, the next session I increase the weight until I can only get 4 reps. and then I go from there.
ALL my assistance work is based on 3-4 sets of 6-12 reps. example DB presses
80x10, 100x10, 125x10 - the other 2 sets were working weight still, and I’m getting a good feeling. but the last set was the top one. OF COURSE I DID NOT warmup for that 80lb dumbbell cause I just finished doing a bench press max of 5 reps with whatever weight.
The only thing I was saying is that for a MAIN MOVEMENT…if my MAIN FOCUS is to increase bench press I wouldn’t do a bunch of sets/reps.
I would work up to a 5RM
135x8
185x3
225x5
265x3
295x1
325x1
350x5** top set of 5
After this I would do some DB presses…3 sets of 6-8 - starting with 80’s or 90’s cause I’m already warmuped up and work up to my next set of 6-8 hard reps.
Do you agrree with this, this is how I do all my training…assistance work is different compared to main movement is it not?
Or would you do 3-4 sets of 3-5 reps (work up until you hit that max) to help with the bench press)
example
135x8
185x3
225x5
265x1
295x5 (first work set)
320x5 (2nd work set)
350x3 (3rd work set)
Of course I can’t get all 5 reps with 350 now because I am a bit fatigued…
What are your thoughts on this?[/quote]
Yes, I use the max effort method to get strong in a lift - WHEN I’m using a program that
s geared towards maximal strength.
What you describe is NOT what I used for bodybuilding. When I used a bodybuilding scheme, I never worked up to a 1 to 5 rep max anything in the ways I’ve described to get strong in a lift.
For a hundredth time, here’s what a quad workout looks like:
Squats: 3 x 8-10 (no working up to a 1 to 5 rep max)
Lunges: 3 x 8-10
Leg extensions: 3 x 8-10
I DON’T use the word “assistance” when speaking of bodybuilding.
But if what you do works, continue. [/quote]
hahah okay sorry, my mental state is what caused this…I do realize that in bodybuilding you would do your squats like that, even for other main lifts like a bench press…you would do the same thing.
I’ve never tried the other way much…I will always do one hevy set (3-5RM usually, sometimes 6) and then after that follow up with other exercises (in non-bodybuilding assistance).
But as for the “ramping” “working warmup” whatever we do the exact same thing, I’m not sure if that’s how the westside guys do it, but I know it works and it’s easy to gauge strength levels and when you need to back off and what not in my mind.
This is straight from my Bible thread:
"On Progression and Periodization
The way I’ve learned it, periodization is simply a plan. This means that if you write out a program or have one in your head, you follow periodizaton! So it’s safe to conclude that all serious bodybuilders periodize their training by this definition.
If you define periodization as setting up training with intricate macro-, meso-, and microcycles, with each dedicated to developing different qualities like speed, size, strength, and power - by that definition, ALMOST all, if not all, bodybuilders DON’T, periodize their training.
The way I used to deal with fatigue, motivation, and recovery was to follow what Dorian Yates did - try to build up the poundages or increase reps for 5 to 6 weeks, and then back off for two weeks by keeping weights the same and not attempting to increase reps either.
Here’s more genius stuff on how to progress in weights and reps…
Let’s say your set-and-rep scheme is 8 to 12 reps. Here’s how it works:
Week 1: 100 x 10
Week 2: 100 x 11
Week 3: 100 x 12
Week 4: 105 x 9
Week 5: 105 x 10
Week 6 (back-off week): 105 x 10 (no attempt to break last week’s record)
Week 7 (back-off week): 105 x 10 (no attempt to break last week’s record)
Week 8 (back to the grind): 105 x 11
Granted, you might not make that much progress in 8 weeks, but this example can give you an idea of how progress happens. Once again, this is NOT genius material."
Rasturai wrote: “But as for the “ramping” “working warmup” whatever we do the exact same thing, I’m not sure if that’s how the westside guys do it, but I know it works and it’s easy to gauge strength levels and when you need to back off and what not in my mind.”
NO advanced people do straight sets in anything except speed work and plyometrics. I already went over how to ramp up to a 1 to 5 rep max the way the Westside guys and everyone else does it.
Cutler and Centopani did a couple of straight sets of DB presses on their latest MD video, after a few warmups :).
thanks pumped340, yeah I might include another work set after a 3-5max on the bench press.
My shoulder is getting better so I want to make my bench press high again and hit the 405. I want to do this at the same time doing more of a bodybuilding type split for the upper body.
I really want to bring my upper body up. So I will monitor frequency by training 4x a week (upper, lower, upper, lower) and then after 3 weeks of that switch to the same split spread over 3x a week.
I’m not sure what results Brick has had increasing the bench with a bodybuilding type set but I can’t see it being much different from a westside type split.
Westside Split:
Max Effort Exercise
Triceps
Shoulders
Lats/Upper Back
Dynamic Bench Press
Triceps
Shoulders
Lats/Upper Back
Now to do this with bodybuilding type split I was thinking of this:
Day one: Chest/Back
Back: Bent over rows 4x4-6 (ramp) (40x6, 50x6, 60x6)
Seated Cable Row - 3x6-8 (ramp)
Day two: Shoulders/Triceps
Shoulders:
Standing Military Press 2x4-6 (could be subsituted to incline press maybe for 3x6-8?) only cause it works anterior shoulders as well although I know it is a chest movement…
DB Press (standing) 2-3x6-8
DB laterals - 3x8-12
Triceps: Close grip Bench press 2x6-8
Skullcrushers 3x8-10
Done - How does this look? I didn’t include rear delt work or ext. work but that is done 2x a week mandatory to keep shoulders healthy.
[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
Cutler and Centopani did a couple of straight sets of DB presses on their latest MD video, after a few warmups :).[/quote]
Then I’m wrong then. Apparently some advanced people do them. I won’t.
[quote]rasturai wrote:
thanks pumped340, yeah I might include another work set after a 3-5max on the bench press.
My shoulder is getting better so I want to make my bench press high again and hit the 405. I want to do this at the same time doing more of a bodybuilding type split for the upper body.
I really want to bring my upper body up. So I will monitor frequency by training 4x a week (upper, lower, upper, lower) and then after 3 weeks of that switch to the same split spread over 3x a week.
I’m not sure what results Brick has had increasing the bench with a bodybuilding type set but I can’t see it being much different from a westside type split.
Westside Split:
Max Effort Exercise
Triceps
Shoulders
Lats/Upper Back
Dynamic Bench Press
Triceps
Shoulders
Lats/Upper Back
Now to do this with bodybuilding type split I was thinking of this:
Day one: Chest/Back
Back: Bent over rows 4x4-6 (ramp) (40x6, 50x6, 60x6)
Seated Cable Row - 3x6-8 (ramp)
Day two: Shoulders/Triceps
Shoulders:
Standing Military Press 2x4-6 (could be subsituted to incline press maybe for 3x6-8?) only cause it works anterior shoulders as well although I know it is a chest movement…
DB Press (standing) 2-3x6-8
DB laterals - 3x8-12
Triceps: Close grip Bench press 2x6-8
Skullcrushers 3x8-10
Done - How does this look? I didn’t include rear delt work or ext. work but that is done 2x a week mandatory to keep shoulders healthy.
[/quote]
Are you serious?
How are these NOT MUCH DIFFERENT from one another?
Does the following even look remotely like a bodybuilding routine? Does this look like a CHEST WORKOUT or a workout designed to increase the bench?!
Day 1: Max Effort/Upper body
Day 2: Speed/Upper body
Mmm - well I thought my plan looked like a chest workout? I had 3 exercises for the chest:
Chest/Back
Flat Bench
Flat DB presses
Dips
and then my back work
On the flat bench instead of doing like 3x8-10 ramped I am only wokring to a 5RM
then for the flat db presses I am doing ramped sets of those
same for the dips
Then the 2nd day was designed specically for shoulders/triceps - in which I have 3 shoulder exercises and then 2 heavy tricep exercises.
The plan you just showed is definaetly only designed to increase the bench press. I have to admit I’ve never done a bodybuilding type split. So I am trying to use a bodybuilding type split (chest/back, shoulders/triceps)
to increase my bench press and to bring up lagging bodyparts (chest, shoulders) I am sure it can be done. I’m not so sure if the routine I posted is the best to do it. I know it may not increase my bench the fastest but I will be happy if I get some strength and bring up some bodyparts.
Do you think my routine I made is okay? Yours looks great without a doubt to increase the bench, but I’m looking for the best of both worlds right now…I don’t want anyone telling me you can’t get strong a bench form a bodybuilding split! lol I think as long as I change the reps a bit (a few 5RM’s etc) it may work.
So what do you think of my routine, anything you would tweak/change or is it looking okay? Do you think the 2nd day is too much/too heavy for the shoulders to take a beating like that?
I am really appreciating the effort and time you are putting forth as well brick to help!
Oh and by the way I re-looked by what I said about it not being much different haha it definaetly came out the wrong way in that regard, I just meant to say I can’t see how strength can be increased on the bodybuilding type split bceause I am hitting my chest, shoulders, and tri’s hard…and all these things being hit hard may allow for an increase in bench strength.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
I used to train how Modok mentioned, basically all sets besides warm ups to failure. But I stopped this after reading the endless posts on here about the “proper way” to ramp. Honestly though…whichever helps me progress fastest.
One way I don’t particularly like though is the straight sets with the same weight for all sets. So whether 4x10 is 135x10, 185x10, 225x10, 275x10 or 275x10, 255x10, etc… back down apparently is fine but when it’s something like 4x10x225 that seems to be significantly harder to make progress on, and is pretty boring lol.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
As I’ve written before, my jumps are about 10 percent of my top set. Usually I’ll use a 5% jump between my second to last and final set. This does NOT induce fatigue for me, but rather provides me with a set that is close enough to my top set to give me a feel for it. I’ve noticed no detriment to performance for years doing this and when doing max effort work in a powerlifting workout is suggested as well.
[/quote]
Brick how long do you generally rest between sets?
[quote]MODOK wrote:
I’ve always trained that way too, for one reason- if I do it the opposite way ( ramp up doing for example 275 x 10 and 300 x 10) then the heavy set I will never be able to match the performance than if I just go for it with a light warm up. [/quote]
This is what I was saying earlier about the confusion with reps staying the same rather than going down as you get closer to the max set. I guess for Brick it doesn’t effect him but I know if 300x10 was what I could get absolutely maxing out fresh then I really doubt I could I get it 2-3 minutes after 275x10. Not that it wouldn’t still have a training effect though[/quote]
I don’t time my rest periods. I did a long time ago and gave it up. I go when again when I feel ready, regardless of the rep range. I do try to rest as little as possible though. So if I’m working up to a 3 to 5 rep max, between those early sets with puny weights (95 to 225 pounds) I might rest for a minute, and sometimes LESS. When I’m near my max, I might wait 3 to 5 minutes.
For bodybuilding and assistance work, it’s probably 1 to 3 minutes, depending on the exercise and muscle group (eg, little rest between sets of calf raises, bicep curls, pushdowns, lateral raises and more rest between overhead press, dumbbell bench, dips, chins, etc.)
[quote]rasturai wrote:
Mmm - well I thought my plan looked like a chest workout? I had 3 exercises for the chest:
Chest/Back
Flat Bench
Flat DB presses
Dips
and then my back work
On the flat bench instead of doing like 3x8-10 ramped I am only wokring to a 5RM
then for the flat db presses I am doing ramped sets of those
same for the dips
Then the 2nd day was designed specically for shoulders/triceps - in which I have 3 shoulder exercises and then 2 heavy tricep exercises.
The plan you just showed is definaetly only designed to increase the bench press. I have to admit I’ve never done a bodybuilding type split. So I am trying to use a bodybuilding type split (chest/back, shoulders/triceps)
to increase my bench press and to bring up lagging bodyparts (chest, shoulders) I am sure it can be done. I’m not so sure if the routine I posted is the best to do it. I know it may not increase my bench the fastest but I will be happy if I get some strength and bring up some bodyparts.
Do you think my routine I made is okay? Yours looks great without a doubt to increase the bench, but I’m looking for the best of both worlds right now…I don’t want anyone telling me you can’t get strong a bench form a bodybuilding split! lol I think as long as I change the reps a bit (a few 5RM’s etc) it may work.
So what do you think of my routine, anything you would tweak/change or is it looking okay? Do you think the 2nd day is too much/too heavy for the shoulders to take a beating like that?
I am really appreciating the effort and time you are putting forth as well brick to help!
Oh and by the way I re-looked by what I said about it not being much different haha it definaetly came out the wrong way in that regard, I just meant to say I can’t see how strength can be increased on the bodybuilding type split bceause I am hitting my chest, shoulders, and tri’s hard…and all these things being hit hard may allow for an increase in bench strength.
[/quote]
Who said people don’t increase strength from bodybuilding routines? If we bodybuilders didn’t seek to get stronger in lifts, they’d stay the same size from day 1!
I can’t comment on your routine–whether it’s good or bad–because it’s not something I’d do. Perhaps I’m simple minded. To me, bodybuilding is about getting bigger muscles. And for some people, the bench press might not even be called for to do that. I never used flat barbell bench presses much when I was into bodybuilding because I had minimal chest growth from it. Sure you can have at it and seek to increase your bench with a bodybuilding routine. But to ME, it’s an inefficient way of doing it, and besides, you can get pretty big on a powerlifting/bench spec routine despite the fact that your proportions/symmetry might not be great in the end.
If what you do works, have at it. If I was someone who had no aspirations of being on the top of either powerlifting or bodybuilding–that is, either never competing or not competing at a high level–I’d just powerlift or specialize in the bench half the year and bodybuilder the other half.
The same can be said for any other lift or muscle group too. People think the squat is the all-out king for quad development. But what if someone happens to get better results from leg presses and hack squats in quad development, BUT ALSO wants to increase his squats for the sake of it. Doesn’t go well together!
I say, if you want strength, go for strength with an EFFICIENT means of doing so. Same goes for bodybuilding. Even Dave Tate discussed this once in an interview and sarcastically asked, “To those people seeking strength and size at the same time, how’s that workin’ out for ya?!”
Doing dumbbell and bar shoulder presses in the same day strikes me as redundant and might be a bit much coupled with close grip bench presses in the same workout too. But if YOU are making good gains and recovering fine, then continue. It’s just not what I do or what I recommend.
My old shoulder and tricep workout looked like this:
SHOULDERS
Overhead press
Lateral raises
Machine or cable lateral raises
Shrugs
TRICEPS
Close grip bench
Tricep extensions
Tricep pushdowns