Great thread guys.
Remember what Louie says,“You can only get so fast, but you can always find a way to get stronger.”
For those that say football is not a maximal strength sport, you are right, but remember that all strenght is based upon maximal strength.
[quote]OGuard wrote:
Cleans are not that bad for athletes, but are not the be all and end all of a program. In terms of benefits, I would say that training economy is the best part of it. In terms of football players and cleans, I think it is a waste to teach them to do it with olympic form ie dropping into a full squat position to catch the weight and going from the floor. Rather I think these lifts should be done from the hang thus focusing on pure explosion through the hips with very little dropping to catch the weight. Once I started doing cleans only from the hang, I felt it transfered well into my ability to deliver a blow. However I think that lower body and upper body plyometrics are great for athletes and should be focused on alot more by HS coaches.[/quote]
Very true with the hang, OGuard. However, I think you may have been mis-informed on what the clean is designed to do for power-sport athletes like football players and throwers (not Oly lifters). The drop in the clean movement is EXTREMELY important in developing power with the movement. If done properly, the drop in the clean is a plyometric (stretch-shortening) movement that is used in most every sport (which you just said should be used more often!!!). To only emphasize the upward thrust, would be cheating your body out of maximal performance.
The hamstrings and hip flexors can be over-ridden by the quads, when only focusing on the positive (upward) thrust of the lift. You can still hit a hang - in fact, I recommend the hang from a rack for most power sports - yet, get a half-drop (not a full ass-to-floor drop) with the lower body when recieving the bar. The power (force/time) that is required to move the hips up then down violently with heavy weight is why the clean is a great movement. That pop-and-drop motion is one of the fastest movements in all the training world!
So, do your best to emphasis both the upward and downward phases of the lift, just make the drop a shallow half squat. The combination is much more powerful than either phase alone.
As far as plyometrics are concerned, again, you may have been a bit mis-informed. Granted, plyometrics are much more dynamic than any lift, even the Oly lifts. And can greatly increase athletic performance. However, because of the extreme amount of forces produced, plyos can easily and quickly over-train even the best athletes!
Plyos should be “cycled” in and out of the training routine at specific frequencies and durations. For instance, 3-4 weeks lifts/sprint, 1 week of plyos/lifts, repeat. The body CANNOT do heavy, dynamic plyometric loading for weeks/months on end. The clean is a non-impact plymetric that can be done nearly every training week through out the year… and we wonder why we see so many ACL tears and meniscus damage - many times it’s too much dynamic training and not enough recovery.
I understand your point on dropping during the clean. However the range of motion needed to correctly do this (ass to the floor, knees far beyond the feet) does not exactly mimic what is done on the field. No one ever drops that low and i think that it can be considerably more dangerous than plyometrics, because although the impact isnt that great, dropping into such a low position in order to catch a weight can cause a whole host of problems. I like doing split lifts such a split jerks for hammer throwers because the position mimics what they do in the circle. You are right that plyos can be done too often, however i have found that by changing up the plyometric exercises from week to week, they can be incorporated for extended periods of time. You mentioned ACL tears, i personally think they have alot to do with the fact that so many programs over emphasise the quads, while neglecting the hamstrings. This imbalance is the true culprit for the ACL tears. Glen is right in what he mentioned, in that it is possible to teach athletes of all ages how to correctly do the clean, however Glen must also acknowledge that having a coach as qualified as he is to teach the olympic lifts is indeed a very rare thing and i would bet that less than 1% of HS have coaches with his knowledge.
O gaurd is referring to the full clean catch position and sirloin is referring to the power catch position. I don;t think that OGaurd was suggesting to catch a clean with straight legs.
With the plyo’s, with varying intensities some jump training can be included year round (jumps from floor, landing technique work, single response jumps, multiple response jumps, hurdle jumps, Jumping up on to boxes, depth jumps, altitude drops).
Although, depth jumps and altitude drops should be cycled in and out of the training program as sirloin said.
I suppose I should have clarified that I was using the traditional american all-inclusive definition of plyo’s and not the strict definition.
This thread has been very helpfull to me thus far. I have two questions for glen pendlay.
When you say that cleans can approach the weight of deadlifts, I think you must have full squat cleans in mind, but even then this is hard to understand, as people have deadlifted over 900 pounds (maybe over 1000–some Russian guy and it was unofficial), but I was not aware that anyone ever cleaned over 600 pounds. Were you refering to squat cleans, and also, were the numbers you gave for those skinny football players power clean numbers or squat clean numbers?
I never had a coach teach me to clean, but I tought myself years ago, and then 6 months ago I had the benefit of briefly training with a national level olympic lifter, and he said my clean (power and squat) form was pretty good, but when the weight got heavy, I would go up on my toes slightly before I fully extended my legs at the knees and hips (he also thought I should learn to “bump” the bar against my thighs, which I never really did). I still think I do this sometimes, and I was wondeirng how big a problem it might be, and, perhaps more importantly, what sort of weakness it indicates. I would like to improve my power clean more, but I am not sure I can always tell what areas I really need to work on.
As far as continuing the debate goes, I was surprised that no one mentioned these disadvantages of the clean or power clean–the dangers to the shoulders and wrists in catching the bar (I just had to take a week off, as I strained my wrist with a 260 pound p.r.)i.e., why not just do high pulls for the power development. Secondly, it can be a pain in the ass to fit cleans into a training schedule which divides body parts as they effect so many muscle groups so intensly.
On the other hand, as a benefit, it seems to me that power cleans alone can provide an excellent workout for the body, leaving one more time to focus on sports specific training. And, perhaps it is also an adavantage that cleans require less weight than squats/deadlifts, and seem to allow one to train with greater frequency and avoid overtraining.
I second what Jack Zeppelin said. At my high school, we were always undersized compared to the other schools, and always did well. We had some coaches who had coached at the college level as assistants, and they made cleans one of our staple lifts (this was about 15 years ago, and they had us on a variant of the Nebraska “Bigger, Faster, Stronger” program, which also included plyometrics).
Also, for a more recent reference, I believe Coach Davies advocates cleans for his football athletes. Check out his book on football training.
[quote]floobadoo wrote:
As far as continuing the debate goes, I was surprised that no one mentioned these disadvantages of the clean or power clean–the dangers to the shoulders and wrists in catching the bar (I just had to take a week off, as I strained my wrist with a 260 pound p.r.)i.e., why not just do high pulls for the power development. Secondly, it can be a pain in the ass to fit cleans into a training schedule which divides body parts as they effect so many muscle groups so intensly.
On the other hand, as a benefit, it seems to me that power cleans alone can provide an excellent workout for the body, leaving one more time to focus on sports specific training. And, perhaps it is also an adavantage that cleans require less weight than squats/deadlifts, and seem to allow one to train with greater frequency and avoid overtraining. [/quote]
Cleans are definitely tough on the joints but so is deadlifting 600 lbs.
Fitting cleans in I don’t see as a problem. I’d put them on leg days.
Yes they are very time efficient. However I think they are also much more CNS intensive than squatting, esp dynamic effort squats.
I was just skimming through this post earlier and wanted to mention something. Isn’t the exercise with the most power output…snatches??? Just want someone to confirm it or not.
I do believe you are correct Jimmy.
cleans kick ass! It’s the creatine of lifting and should be done by anybody who wants to be stronger, explosive, and get chicks!
[quote]CU AeroStallion wrote:
cleans kick ass! It’s the creatine of lifting and should be done by anybody who wants to be stronger, explosive, and get chicks![/quote]
Me thinks that the WSB crew as well as coach X (NFL SC Coach), would say box squats are better
I didnt power clean for three years and the very first day I did them again I cleaned 315 easily. Cleans are overrated.
I think it’s important to remember that cleans (power or squat) are usefull as long as their PART of a program. That’s true of any exercise out there. Should you get carried away, no. Should you ignore them, no. But like anything else, you can have too much of a good thing.
It seems that everyone is concerned with what Westside or HIT or any other popular methodology is doing. If your goals are to be an elite lever powerlifter, then follow their lead. If the colleges are concerned with your clean numbers and you want to pursue that path, then work them man.
It would be interesting to hear Joe DeFranco’s opinion on this, seeing how he preps athletes for the combines.
There is a good post by Coach Ethan Reeve on cleans for football at the Dragon Door site.
Enjoy.
I don’t think cleans are “overrated”. I love oly lifting, and if you look at it, many oly lifters squat and deadlift heavy themselves. In the same way, h.s. & college football players should vary their training also, doing squats, deadlifts, etc. for strength, and cleans, snatches, jerks, etc. for power/explosiveness.
First off forgive my spelling it sucks bad
#1 problem with the clean
most kids can not or worry to much about the catch.
High Pulls are much better you get a full extention. I seen Chuck V high-pull over 600 from the floor now that is power. How about a speed deadlift with a shrug.
50 to 60% of a max squat is going to much higher wieght than a max clean. So Dynamic squatting is much better for the developing explosive force in the hips than clean becuase you can handle more weight.
I work with 30 to 40 kids and every summer kid puts on between 30 to 50lbs on there clean and we do not do any cleans. Why because I focus on building absolute strength most kids are weak as water. I had one kid go from 200 to 315 in one summer. His deadlift went from 265 to close to 500. Yes kids can get very strong very fast if you do the right things and they eat eat eat.
Another problem with the clean is most schools do not do enough trunk work to help them get ready to clean and pull I have seen at least 8 to 10 L4 L5 fractures from bad pulling and bad cleaning.
Bottom line stick to the basics drag the sled train you core get stong and explosive. Do some sort of dynamic warm up and agililities and everything else will fall into place.
Stick to the basics when working with kids. There are much better ways to get strong and explosive than the power clean for kids.
This is a great thread, now my two cents. The clean is one of the best exercises out there for building power, however it is difficult to execute it properly. I have trained high school athletes in the past and trust me they has know business doing cleans. You must have a base level of strength before you attempt such and advanced exercise. To quote Fred Hatfield “You cannot shoot a canon from a canoe.” I know he was talking about squat strength, but the saying applies here as well."
Another great Quote from Dave Tate
“You can not flex Bone”
I tested my powerclean today and got a 30 pound pr with 225.
I haven’t lifted anything in 2 weeks as my school gym has been closed. Rather, I’ve been experimenting with med ball throws and plyos (box jumps.) So I’ve increased my clean 30 pounds in 2 weeks without doing cleans or increasing my max strength.
I now plan on adding powercleans 1x per week along with med ball throws and plyos. So I don’t think cleans are overrated, but I think they should be cycled in with other methods of developing RFD.
That is a very good point no matter what you are doing you need to change things up nothing lasts forever … There are many different ways to get explosive
Cleans are good I just think there are better ways especally for high school kids