[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
IMO, the high fat/ high protein/ low carb diets many people espouse these days don’t equate with longevity for the average person.[/quote]
Ah, but they do.
Though let’s adjust it to high sat fat intake / moderate protein / low carb (ie. the research is piling up)
And obviously, staying active goes without saying.
(and again, this is in the context of longevity. Most of us here rate athletic/training performance pretty high as well and adjust accordingly)
-edited-
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
One other way to think about diet. The focus here is on building muscle. Sometimes general athleticism. Strength. Maintaining lower levels of body fat, depending on your goals. Most of us also want to feel good, and have adequate energy to do our thing.
I’ve become more concerned with general health and longevity. I’d like to avoid injury, and I’d also like to age well.
You have to decide if you want be concerned with just muscle, or how much you want to consider lowering your risk for:
Heart Disease
Cancer
Diabetes
Lets assume the effects of “eating dirty” are cumulative. Just because you’re young and don’t yet have high blood pressure or diabetes, doesn’t mean you aren’t building the gunk that will clog up your arteries in a decade or two. You kind of hate to wait until your doctor see’s these medical indicators in your bloodwork, before your consider it might be a problem. IMO, the high fat/ high protein/ low carb diets many people espouse these days don’t equate with longevity for the average person. I’m not so sure that the so called “healthy fats” should be consumed with abandon either.
Edited
[/quote]
I have no “paleo” agenda, by the way. I went with the recommendations of a book called the perfect health diet, because the author did not begin with a low or high fat, or carnivore or vegan agenda. He started from nothing and used every bit of research to try to construct guidelines. The biggest 3 were to limit sugar and fructose, limit high omega-6 oils, and greatly limit cereal grains (which in my case I realized had caused clockwork nasal congestion for YEARS that interfered with my sleep and disrupted my eating habits).
So my reason for my diet is that within 10 weeks I a) lost 25 pounds, without losing muscle, lost 5 inches off my waist; b) blood pressure down from 145/100 to 115/75; c) sleep through the night; d) went from 8-12 ibuprofen a day to NONE ever.
If a 50% fat diet or a vegan diet can accomplish those 4 things I am sure that either one would improve health.
So I will read what I can on your authors, starting from the assumption that they are honest. I am a scientist, so I have pretty good practice at evaluating design flaws if they exist.
Let me mention that a diet built around a couple of studies is not typically the way that science works. A single study, no matter how well it looks like it is designed, can have just one overlooked factor that invalidates it. In soldiers for example in Korea, we are comparing US soldiers who were taken 10,000 miles from home, into a climate that does not exist in America, and giving them food that was brought in, packages and preserved, and they were basically going into unfamiliar terrain with native land soldiers trying to kill them.
There are many differences between them and Korean soldiers on either side. It is almost like somebody went out to find the one study that didn’t DESTROY the vegan philosophy.
The first saturated fat experiment done in the US with people with CHD supplimented diets with a) saturated animal fat; b) olive oil (MUFA) and c) High omega 6 oils like sunflower and soybean. Group A had the fewest deaths in 6-7 years, group be was second and group C had the most. The CHD deaths were about the same but group C had something like 3 times the cancer deaths, which if accounted for would make the rate of CHD deaths in the rest far less. The researchers conclusion was that CHD patients weren’t good subjects for testing the healthiness of fatty acids.
What I have found on casien also suggest that there is dishonesty going on. Casien was used to stimulate tumors in lab animals for testing. That is true, but the reason is that casien is a form of protein that is deficient in Selenium and Selenium deficiency was known to cause tumors so if you want to give an animal a protein source, and promote a tumor causing deficiency, then feeding them nothing but casien protein should work.
The cancer causing effects of casien are no different that the cancer causing effects of any other protein combined with a Selenium deficiency. It looks like someone is knowingly distorting the truth when they use the fact that casien was used to stimulate cancer in lab animals as justification of calling casien a “known carcinogen”.
^ My kids get a little worried about dinner when I bring home books like this. 
Appreciate your thoughts, Mertdawg. I don’t have an agenda either, vegan or otherwise. I thought a lot about my macros last year, and decided that The Zone diet macros worked pretty well for my goals. (30%pro/40%carb/30% fat). You’ll see people like Lyle McDonald often recommend that breakdown for athletic people who don’t have insulin issues. Then within those basic guidelines, try to make nutrient dense choices most of the time. Adopt healthier habits, like drinking green tea with lemon instead of diet soda where possible. Throw some spinach and blueberries into your protein shake. That sort of thing is pretty simple and easy to do.
I don’t have the science background to really comprehend some of the data. Anonym used to come in and look up primary sources and discuss, and I always appreciated that. Thanks for taking the time. If you want to look at some of the research I was talking about, The China Study book is much more research intensive, so much so that it’s a bit of a slog for the lay person like myself. You might enjoy checking it out. The gist is that diets like the Mediterranean Diet are better than the average American diet, but the populations eating even more plant based diets, with lower fat do even better at avoiding heart disease and cancer. Some of this has made me step back a bit and think again about my fat and protein consumption.
I Agree about being careful about getting too worked up over one study, or animal research where there may be doses or something not normally found in a natural state. Funny story about early cardiac research. There were some studies that corn oil was “heart healthy”. I remember this from my childhood. People thinking that margarine was a healthier alternative because it was derived from corn. Anyway, there was a guy with advanced heart disease in the Esselstyn book who was actually prescribed a stick of margarine per day by his physician. He was melting it in a glass and drinking it every night. Funny, unless you’re him.
[quote]chillain wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
IMO, the high fat/ high protein/ low carb diets many people espouse these days don’t equate with longevity for the average person.[/quote]
Ah, but they do.
Though let’s adjust it to high sat fat intake / moderate protein / low carb (ie. the research is piling up)
And obviously, staying active goes without saying.
(and again, this is in the context of longevity. Most of us here rate athletic/training performance pretty high as well and adjust accordingly)
-edited-[/quote]
Chillian,
Staying in motion important for sure. As far as diet, I’ll admit to being swayed by whatever I read last. There’s so much conflicting information out there about fats - how much and which types. I know a lot of people have reigned in their diabetes and lost weight doing a higher protein/higher fat diet. I need to look more at longevity. And for sure there are some adjustments for activity level and personal goals. Thanks.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
I have no “paleo” agenda, by the way. I went with the recommendations of a book called the perfect health diet, because the author did not begin with a low or high fat, or carnivore or vegan agenda. He started from nothing and used every bit of research to try to construct guidelines. The biggest 3 were to limit sugar and fructose, limit high omega-6 oils, and greatly limit cereal grains (which in my case I realized had caused clockwork nasal congestion for YEARS that interfered with my sleep and disrupted my eating habits).
So my reason for my diet is that within 10 weeks I a) lost 25 pounds, without losing muscle, lost 5 inches off my waist; b) blood pressure down from 145/100 to 115/75; c) sleep through the night; d) went from 8-12 ibuprofen a day to NONE ever.
If a 50% fat diet or a vegan diet can accomplish those 4 things I am sure that either one would improve health.
So I will read what I can on your authors, starting from the assumption that they are honest. I am a scientist, so I have pretty good practice at evaluating design flaws if they exist.[/quote]
Oh, I just wanted to add. Your results are impressive. Congrats. I will look for the book you mentioned.
I probably should have started another thread for this, but if you want to read more Esselstyn, you can google him and heart attack proof. There are some of his journal articles, as well as some of his interpretation and review of some other studies.
Nice to talk to you.
been doing Carb Back Loading. nice thing is that you’re supposed to get better results (muscle gain, fat loss) with by back loading with dirty, high glycemic carbs (fruity pebbles, donuts, etc.). They give you an insulin spike hard and fast, whereas cleaner carbs (like rice, pasta, etc.) will give you a slow, steady rise in insulin and last longer throughout the night while you sleep. IF in the morning, shake and clean ultra-low carb meal in the afternoon, then this dirty back load post workout is working wonders.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
The “dirty” foods for me are the allergenic and toxic ones. Here is the list:
wheat
oats
gluten
legumes
lactose
egg whites
smoked meats and fish
possibly strawberries and eggplant
omega-6s, as well as omega-3s
fructose (which means sucrose at a certain level too)
most “nuts”
All of these are dose-relative toxins, so they are not untouchable, but they are all harmful to me above a fairly low level.
Also protein begins to become toxic at a little over 1 gram per pound BW. Maybe 1.5 for someone very lean. Too many carbs in general.
I also won’t touch inorganic potatos, or canned tomatoes.
Saturated fat and MUFA’s are probably the two closest things to 100% clean.[/quote]
Jesus, that list plus not too many carbs or protein what do you eat? Macro breakdown.[/quote]
Baseline non-training
2500 cals
150 grams protein
150 grams carbs
145 grams fat
About a 25/25/50 breakdown by percent of calories.
Plus I train an hour a day so that is an extra 300 cals PWO, about 50 grams carbs, 25 grams protein.
That brings it to
2800
180 protein
200 carb
145 fat
That is if I still want to slowly bring down my bodyfat% while getting stronger.
Then another 300 cals (50 g carb, 25 g protein) to gain muscle as fast as possible without gaining fat.
3100
205 protein (26.5%)
250 carb (32.3%)
145 fat (42%)
That would be a standard muscle building level if I am happy maintaining my bodyfat, but don’t want to gain any fat. I could add another 300 cals if my bodyfat is lower and I am OK with coming up a little in the short term, but I would never go above about 13 or 14% again.
Honestly I get fat cals from grass fed beef fat, coconut oil, olive oil, butter, red palm oil, avocados, whole eggs, or just yolks.
I have a hard time seeing how people get so many carbs.
I can eat 2 pounds of potatos and be at 125 grams (plus fiber), and still have another 125 grams of carbs to add including PWO. That’s maybe 50 grams PWO drink, 2 bananas, and another 25 grams if I eat LOTS of veggies over the course of the day.
It would be almost 3 cups of rice plus 2 big pieces of fruit, PWO and some vegetables. [/quote]
Could list the results/dangers of over eating foods on that list.
In the protein thread you mentioned that excess ammonia can cause "reduced strength and endurance, and possibly liver damage.
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Could list the results/dangers of over eating foods on that list.
In the protein thread you mentioned that excess ammonia can cause "reduced strength and endurance, and possibly liver damage.
[/quote]
Like what? Somewhere starting between 170-240 grams of protein a day each added gram will produce ammonia. The more work you do, especially of the glycogen depleting variety, the more you will use protein to spare muscle, turning it into glucose, and removing the nitrogen in urea. So basically at a low volume of glycogen depleting work I am recommending about 170 and at a high level about 240 on training days. This is in contrast to people eating 350-500 grams of protein a day.
Powerpuff: The corn oil study is a great example of intentional distortion.
Here’s basically what happened, though I don’t remember the exact number of participant in each group. I’m using 100 as an example.
Basically they added something like 400 cals a day to each groups diet from either corn oil or saturated animal fat.
Corn oil.
100 people
8 had heart attacks
Saturated fat
100 people
10 had heart attacks
The problem is:
Corn oil
20 cancer deaths
Saturated fat
6 cancer deaths
Conclusion of study: saturated fat increases your risk of heart attack by a WHOPPNG 25% wow huge.
The problem is that the rates of heart attack were the same in the portions of the studies that did not die of cancer.
The experimentors also anticipating that the death by cancer rate was going to explode in the corn oil group stopped the study early.
Another problematic factor comparing saturated fat to high omega 6 fats is that saturated fat used in studies was typically hydrogenated plant fat and HYDROGENATED lard, which created high levels of trans fats in the sat fat group. When the effects of trans fats are removed, saturated fat produced fewer CHD than high omega 6.
Now it is still possible that if someone has arterial scarring which does not heal adequately, that the cholesterol (that is produced in the liver to REPAIR the damaged cells) can start to build up on the scar tissue. Although we have already shown that sat fat produces fewer deaths in CHD patients than high omega 6 (which itself is a major cause of scarring-a primary cause).
Guess what the 5 most likely primary causes of arterial lining damage are, based on having the mechanism to cause the damage, and also correlating to high calcium scores:
Smoking
Radiation
Running more than 40 kilometers a week on average
More than 4% cals from PUFA, and especially more than 10%
Very high stress score (on a standardized scale over 2 years).
Hyperglycemia/diabetes
Also some anti epileptics that remove bone calcium, as well as dietary calcium supplements and antacids.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Could list the results/dangers of over eating foods on that list.
In the protein thread you mentioned that excess ammonia can cause "reduced strength and endurance, and possibly liver damage.
[/quote]
Like what? Somewhere starting between 170-240 grams of protein a day each added gram will produce ammonia. The more work you do, especially of the glycogen depleting variety, the more you will use protein to spare muscle, turning it into glucose, and removing the nitrogen in urea. So basically at a low volume of glycogen depleting work I am recommending about 170 and at a high level about 240 on training days. This is in contrast to people eating 350-500 grams of protein a day.
[/quote]
No, I meant the other foods you listed. Like what issues may arise from eating too much fructose, egg whites, oats, etc.
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Could list the results/dangers of over eating foods on that list.
In the protein thread you mentioned that excess ammonia can cause "reduced strength and endurance, and possibly liver damage.
[/quote]
Like what? Somewhere starting between 170-240 grams of protein a day each added gram will produce ammonia. The more work you do, especially of the glycogen depleting variety, the more you will use protein to spare muscle, turning it into glucose, and removing the nitrogen in urea. So basically at a low volume of glycogen depleting work I am recommending about 170 and at a high level about 240 on training days. This is in contrast to people eating 350-500 grams of protein a day.
[/quote]
No, I meant the other foods you listed. Like what issues may arise from eating too much fructose, egg whites, oats, etc.
[/quote]
You wrote “could list”. I see now that you are asking if I could list.
Fructose is linked to fatty liver disease, and also creates some particularly bad forms of triglycerides, though fructose is a dose relative toxin like most. 25 grams a day seems to be the level that the liver processes normally, and if liver glycogen is depleted, it will turn more fructose into glycogen too rather than fatty acids.
Oats have gluten, so they are similar to wheat. Also grain fiber in general tends to damage the endotheum cells of the colon. The main reason that people have touted grain fiber is because it reduces cholesterol absorption, which is not really a good thing anyway. Its funny, if something reduces cholesterol it can be called heart healty, but cholesterol is good for the heart. Grain fiber might be good once a week or so to clear out loose cells and possibly polyps, but on a daily basis it leads to basically gut injury.
Egg whites are just one of the more allergenic proteins. The yolk has the key nutrients for the growing embreyo, but the white actually serves as somewhat of a deterrent because it is an irritant.
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
what issues may arise from eating too much fructose, egg whites, oats, etc.
[/quote] You may have issues with egg whites and oats if you’re allergic / intolerant to them.
If you’re not, you won’t have issues.
[quote]tolismann wrote:
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
what issues may arise from eating too much fructose, egg whites, oats, etc.
[/quote] You may have issues with egg whites and oats if you’re allergic / intolerant to them.
If you’re not, you won’t have issues.
[/quote]
I would use the term “sensitive” though. I can eat a bowl of oatmeal and 6 egg whites, but I’ve noticed that I am more likely to get tired around 11 am, or have nasal inflammation at night. Gluten and egg whites tend to cause some degree of sensitivity inflammation in anywhere from 30-90% of the population. Maybe those who say 90% are a little on the extreme side.
The other thing is that until I got off of a higher carb/sugar diet, the only thing I really perceived about myself with food was whether I was hungry or full. People stay on an insulinogenic cycle for years and they stop feeling real biological cravings for certain things they need, and stop being able to identify sensitivities to foods to which they are sensitive to.
Now, I will wake up and feel like I need eggs, or liver, or MUFAs or fish or green leafys or berries etc. I will eat a slice of rye bread and feel fine that day, but I’ll eat 2 slices and feel nasal congestion or swollen feet 2 hours later, etc.
I never thought I was sensitive to foods at all. Recently I realized that putting milk in my hot coffee (something I have done for 25 years) was making my tongue hurt and I would wake up with a white coating the next day. I would actually smell milk and coffee on my nasal bulb all day long. I cut out milk and all the symptoms stopped the next day.
[quote]tolismann wrote:
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
what issues may arise from eating too much fructose, egg whites, oats, etc.
[/quote] You may have issues with egg whites and oats if you’re allergic / intolerant to them.
If you’re not, you won’t have issues.[/quote]
As i wrote, if you feel ‘funny’ or ‘tired’ or ‘whatever’, you might have an issue.
If you don’t, you’re fine.
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
As far as diet, I’ll admit to being swayed by whatever I read last. There’s so much conflicting information out there about fats - how much and which types. I know a lot of people have reigned in their diabetes and lost weight doing a higher protein/higher fat diet. I need to look more at longevity. And for sure there are some adjustments for activity level and personal goals. Thanks.[/quote]
Oh we’re prob all guilty of that.
But prob not the worst thing in the world either, now that would be deciding at some (arbitrary) point that we know everything and are done with the learning process
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
The “dirty” foods for me are the allergenic and toxic ones. Here is the list:
wheat
oats
gluten
legumes
lactose
egg whites
smoked meats and fish
possibly strawberries and eggplant
omega-6s, as well as omega-3s
fructose (which means sucrose at a certain level too)
most “nuts”
All of these are dose-relative toxins, so they are not untouchable, but they are all harmful to me above a fairly low level.
Also protein begins to become toxic at a little over 1 gram per pound BW. Maybe 1.5 for someone very lean. Too many carbs in general.
I also won’t touch inorganic potatos, or canned tomatoes.
Saturated fat and MUFA’s are probably the two closest things to 100% clean.[/quote]
Jesus, that list plus not too many carbs or protein what do you eat? Macro breakdown.[/quote]
Baseline non-training
2500 cals
150 grams protein
150 grams carbs
145 grams fat
About a 25/25/50 breakdown by percent of calories.
Plus I train an hour a day so that is an extra 300 cals PWO, about 50 grams carbs, 25 grams protein.
That brings it to
2800
180 protein
200 carb
145 fat
That is if I still want to slowly bring down my bodyfat% while getting stronger.
Then another 300 cals (50 g carb, 25 g protein) to gain muscle as fast as possible without gaining fat.
3100
205 protein (26.5%)
250 carb (32.3%)
145 fat (42%)
That would be a standard muscle building level if I am happy maintaining my bodyfat, but don’t want to gain any fat. I could add another 300 cals if my bodyfat is lower and I am OK with coming up a little in the short term, but I would never go above about 13 or 14% again.
Honestly I get fat cals from grass fed beef fat, coconut oil, olive oil, butter, red palm oil, avocados, whole eggs, or just yolks.
I have a hard time seeing how people get so many carbs.
I can eat 2 pounds of potatos and be at 125 grams (plus fiber), and still have another 125 grams of carbs to add including PWO. That’s maybe 50 grams PWO drink, 2 bananas, and another 25 grams if I eat LOTS of veggies over the course of the day.
It would be almost 3 cups of rice plus 2 big pieces of fruit, PWO and some vegetables. [/quote]
Did not want to start a whole new thread to ask.
-Why such a high fat diet? What are the benefits?
-Do you count vegetables(greens) towards your total calorie/carbs?
-Do you count fiber or subtract it from totals?
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Did not want to start a whole new thread to ask.
-Why such a high fat diet? What are the benefits?
-Do you count vegetables(greens) towards your total calorie/carbs?
-Do you count fiber or subtract it from totals?[/quote]
Why such a high fat diet. #1 it is basically a process of exclusion. The best insulin sensitivity occurs at about 150 grams of carbs a day. 150 grams of protein will put 99.9% of hard training individuals in nitrogen balance with some to spare. I call for more than that if muscle growth is desired, but that gives a baseline of 150 grams of carbs and 150 grams of fat which would be 1200 calories on a typical 2500 calorie maintenance diet.
Going higher on either carbs or protein (without an added training need) starts to become detrimental, so we have about 50% of calories left over that have to come from something else, and there is only 1 thing left. #2 almost all mammals subsist on 50-65% fat diets! Yes that is true, when you recognize one fact, that grazers eat grass which is almost all fiber.
They access virtually none of the calories in grass themselves. Some traces of sugar and protein. The bacteria in their gut turns the fiber into energy for them, and guess what kind of energy? Fatty acids. Yes, cows, gorillas and elephants live on 60% fatty acids produced in their gut from fiber. Carnivores live off of meat that is about 60% fat, 40% protein.
The only mammals that basically live off of carbs are short lifespan critters like mice. Except for these, mammals live off of 50%+ fat diets. All of them.
The other benefits from high fat diets is that almost all sources of carbs have a toxin load-grains, and beans with gluten and similar proteins and lectins, fruit (in excess) with fructose. Even potatoes, sweet potatoes and rice. Plants, except for fruits, don’t generally benefit from getting eaten. I am not saying that plants are poison or not healthful, but they all carry some toxic load and it is easier to manage at 25% than 60% of daily calories. Also your long term health status is largely the product of the fatty acids and fat soluble nutrients that have accumulated in the body over the last 1-2 years.
I eat all the fibrous veggies I want, and they are important for micronutrients, and because cellulose is a good form of fiber for gut bacteria (to turn into healthy fatty acids). I count the calories, but not the fiber as carbs, as I have mentioned that fiber actually acts like a fat in terms of macros, because it must be turned into fatty acids for you to get energy from them.
If your gut flora was 100% efficient, you would get about 1 gram of fatty acids from every 9 grams of fiber ingested though so even at 30-50 grams of fiber a day, you at most would be getting 4-6 grams of healthy fatty acids added to your bloodstream, and it should be evident from the toilet that they are not close to 100% efficient.
The BULK of my diet is starches like potatos and rice, and sweet potatoes, plus fruit, fibrous veggies and protein. But half the baseline calories come from fats.
Trying to process how ppl eat less than 200g of carb multiple days in a row. Don’t get it. Don’t know how ppl function with high fat. My GI system goes crazy. Doesn’t matter the source. Over 100g and I have issues. And the fructose scare…from fruit come on. High carb is bad. Better tell the Japanese to stop living so long eating all those carbs
On subject I agree with PP on the clean and dirty. Though I like to eat more of those but my energy base is also higher so I can get away with it. Enjoy life though jeezes these diets make my head hurt
Good blog that breaks down research on health and fitness. Keeps things at an upper level,but explains well. Suppversity