What are your guys thoughts on a clean diet vs a dirty diet, and just remaining in your set calorie range and hitting your macros.
I’d say ‘clean vs dirty’ really only matters in the context of general health, longevity.
Otherwise, to constantly attach value-judgments to food choices is silly and can even be harmful. (ie. orthorexia)
In any case, the leaner one is the dirtier they can be.
80/20 all the way. Not giving up pizza, bacon cheeseburgers and beer, but for the most part, I don’t mind eating clean: lean meat, eggs, veggies, some fruit, EVOO butter and avocado; for carbs, pretty much white rice, sprouted grain bread, and some whole wheat pasta once in a while. Cheese, olives, cottage cheese, milk, half and half or even heavy cream in coffee too.
Aside from the mentioned healthy benefits of certain ‘cleaner’ foods, and of course the better satiety they may provide (ie. a bowl of oatmeal vs a poptart when you’re really hungry), I think the effects are very overblown by the average gym goer.
Once everything is truly broken down for usage by your body, a macro is a macro. Your digestive enzymes and your physique won’t know the difference what food they originally came from. I honestly believe a lot of people’s concepts of ‘clean’ and ‘dirty’ foods all can be traced back to that darn food pyramid we used to learn in kindergarten,.
S
Agreed with all the sentiment so far.
The biggest problem with “clean” and “dirty” is taking them out of context. They can be convenient and productive as practical guidelines–eat more veggies, eat less sugar, avoid trans-fats… all good things as long as you remember that they are GUIDELINES not rules. When you take it to the next level of being carb-phobic, fat-phobic, and so on; then I think you can actually start setting yourself back. Being keto for too long, for example, can mess with your hormones and metabolism.
Then there’s a whole other level when you try to impose your rules on other people and become that-guy. Paleo (as the source of many that-guys) is an overall strategy of eating that actually helps a lot of people lose weight and get healthier. SWEET! But when it becomes “the way we were meant to eat,” it becomes laughable.
The “dirty” foods for me are the allergenic and toxic ones. Here is the list:
wheat
oats
gluten
legumes
lactose
egg whites
smoked meats and fish
possibly strawberries and eggplant
omega-6s, as well as omega-3s
fructose (which means sucrose at a certain level too)
most “nuts”
All of these are dose-relative toxins, so they are not untouchable, but they are all harmful to me above a fairly low level.
Also protein begins to become toxic at a little over 1 gram per pound BW. Maybe 1.5 for someone very lean. Too many carbs in general.
I also won’t touch inorganic potatos, or canned tomatoes.
Saturated fat and MUFA’s are probably the two closest things to 100% clean.
I’ve got an article coming out on this very subject (clean eating) in a couple of weeks. Judging by the responses on this thread so far, it’s going to raise a stink!
Clean enough to be healthy; dirty enough to be happy.
Question: Does the fact that the OP is 16-years old change or influence anyone’s answer?
I don’t believe younger lifters need to overstress about eating 100% clean 24/7, but they also shouldn’t use that “youthful metabolism” as a copout to binging on crap.
For sure there’s room for some soda, junk food, pizza, and ice cream when you’re 5’11", 170, teenage male lifting to gain size, but I think it’s still useful to develop a base of good old fashioned “healthy eating habits” (fruits and veggies; 3 squares a day; protein, carbs, and fats in each meal, etc.).
Damn straight, Chris. I didn’t notice his age. (BTW, I hear some congrats are in order!)
Copying straight from the current Welsh Indoor Pole Vaulting record holders blog, enough said,
To me the fundamentals of sports nutrition, the fundamentals of nutrition in general, needs to be the understanding of the phrase ‘‘You are what you eat’’.
As an athlete the proteins that you ingest are the amino acids which are actually going to be used to re-build you muscles after training.
The fats that you eat are going to be used to build the lipid bilayer that surrounds each and every cell in your body.
The carbohydrates that you eat are going to provide the fuel for every muscle contraction that you perform.
This is why it is important to eat a good healthy and clean diet, because everything that passes your lips is fundamentally going to become a part of you. You literally are what you eat.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Also protein begins to become toxic at a little over 1 gram per pound BW. Maybe 1.5 for someone very lean. [/quote]
Not sure if srs. Refs?
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Aside from the mentioned healthy benefits of certain ‘cleaner’ foods, and of course the better satiety they may provide (ie. a bowl of oatmeal vs a poptart when you’re really hungry), I think the effects are very overblown by the average gym goer.
Once everything is truly broken down for usage by your body, a macro is a macro. Your digestive enzymes and your physique won’t know the difference what food they originally came from. I honestly believe a lot of people’s concepts of ‘clean’ and ‘dirty’ foods all can be traced back to that darn food pyramid we used to learn in kindergarten,.
S[/quote]
But what about differences within macros? Is it really the same to put 100g of glucose into the body than 100g of fructose? Is it the same to get one’s protein from animal sources than it is to get it from soy? I personally don’t think so. Glucose and starches are metabolized differently than fructose and soy has a different amino acid profile than meat. I believe this differences add up and have an impact on one’s physique.
Also check out Eric Helms’s 6 part video series on YouTube called Nutrition Pyramid.
"What about toxicity?
We deal with this in our book (p 25). At a protein intake of 230 g/day (920 calories), the body?s ability to convert ammonia to urea is saturated. [3] This means the nitrogen from every additional gram of protein lingers in the body as ammonia, a toxin.
Clearly marginal dietary protein is toxic, via ammonia poisoning, at this intake level. A reasonable estimate for where toxicity begins is between 150 to 200 g/day."
Also: Maximal rates of excretion and synthesis of urea in normal and cirrhotic subjects - PubMed
Mertdawg writes: The basic summary is this, a) even the most strenuously trained athletes achieve nitrogen balance at 0.7 g per pound (about 135 grams for a 200 pound individual). b) Maximum additional synthesis occurs at about 25% above balance which would top out at about .85 grams per KG, or about 170 grams for 200 pound individual), c) ammonia buildup starts slightly above nitrogen balance, and ALL additional protein is converted to ammonia above about 230 grams a day. Since there is really no other pathway to avoid ammonia buildup, no amount of training will “use” protein above 235 a day. So for a standard 200 pound person, the key is to get at least 135 grams a day (maximum nitrogen balance needs), but not more than 235 a day (the point of maximal marginal harm) and ideally about 170, (the point where additional protein synthesis has not been seen in any study).
Top levels for 200 pound athlete:
Nitrogen balance: 135 grams
Beginning of NH4 buildup AND increase in enzymes to use AAs for fuel: 135 g
Maximum synthesis: 170 grams or possibly a little more.
Each additional gram produces ammonia: 230 grams
The study also mentions the much higher synthesis effect of leucine by the way, greatly reducing the level needed for balance and anabolism. Make 170 grams a day “count” with timing, and type and you’ll be way better off than getting 300 grams haphazardly, accruing ammonia and building up lots and lots of enzymes that destroy amino acids for use as energy.
EDIT: I found at least one study that showed that elite weightlifters did gain muscle over a 6 month period when they increased their protein above 0.8 grams per pound, but 0.8 grams per pound is still only 162 grams for a 200 pound person, and of course they have a higher percentage of muscle, more intense and frequent training, and some proportion of anabolic assistance. So there IS evidence to go at least somewhat higher than 0.8 g/pound. Personally, I go for about 0.8 (170) and 30-60 extra grams on training days, but with higher quality high leucine protein sources that 30-60 may come down to 15-20. Again, my recommendation was up to 1.5 grams per pound for a very lean athlete. The study did show more muscle at 1.5 than 0.8 for the lean, elite, strength athletes, but did not show at what point between 0.8 and 1.5 the added effect ceased.
Mertdawg: I like your list of foods to avoid. Looks similar to the list of high oxalate foods that can cause kidney stones in people that are susceptible to them.
Same thing with protein. It’s not the toxicity I’m worried about, as much as the excess proten causing kidney stones. I’ve recently started taking taking essential amino acids in place of protein powder. One gram of protein per lb. of bodyweight seems like a reasonable amount.
Mertdawg’s list is awesome. I’ve recently (past 2 months or so) began eating a predominantly organic diet (grass fed beef, free range chicken and eggs, organic produce, organic potatoes and jasmine rice) and I’ve never felt or looked better. I’ve also dropped my protein to about 2g per kilo while drastically upping carbs and fat. The results have been pretty badass. I can say with 100% certainty that a calorie IS NOT a calorie.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
The “dirty” foods for me are the allergenic and toxic ones. Here is the list:
wheat
oats
gluten
legumes
lactose
egg whites
smoked meats and fish
possibly strawberries and eggplant
omega-6s, as well as omega-3s
fructose (which means sucrose at a certain level too)
most “nuts”
All of these are dose-relative toxins, so they are not untouchable, but they are all harmful to me above a fairly low level.
Also protein begins to become toxic at a little over 1 gram per pound BW. Maybe 1.5 for someone very lean. Too many carbs in general.
I also won’t touch inorganic potatos, or canned tomatoes.
Saturated fat and MUFA’s are probably the two closest things to 100% clean.[/quote]
I’m so confused, I get the wehat/oats/gluten/lactose portion of this, but fructose is toxic? So no apples/bananas? Also, nuts? So walnuts are bad for you too? Egg whites? Is there a reason why you say this?
First off, I said “dose-relative” toxin, like most things. Fructose only starts to show problems at about 25 grams a day, (plus more after training). This 25 grams includes half of the grams in sucrose too, because it breaks into 1 part fructose and 1 part glucose. Fruits get 1/3 to 1/2 of their sugar from fructose.
In a worse case scenario, assuming you eat fruit that gets all of its cals from sugar, and half of its total sugar from fructose, you could still eat 200 cals of fruit a day before you reach that 25 grams where scientific literature starts to show issues. That would be about a 12 oz of blueberries! Bananas get about 1/3 of their cals from fructose.
So in all, if you vary your fruits you can generally get between 200-300 cals from fruit a day to average about 25 grams of fructose which I would call the “non-toxic” edge.
You also can probably add a calorie from fructose for every 2 calories you burn from intense exercise above maybe a 300 cal per hour pace, because at that point you will deplete liver glycogen and in that case, the fructose gets promptly turned into liver glycogen.
Nuts are a problem in keeping your omega 6s down. 1 oz of almonds has about 3.5 grams of omega 6s which is OK, but I try to stay under 10 grams a day total, and average about 7, and I know I am getting about 4 grams a day from general food just in daily eating, so 1 oz of Almonds puts me at 7.5 and 2 puts me at 11 which I would consider a high day. I try to average 1 ounce of almonds max a day. Other nuts may range from 3-6 per ounce, though macadamia nuts have only about 1 or 1.5. Generally an ounce of nuts a day will keep you at an optimal level if you eliminate omega 6 oils and processed foods, and 2 ounces will put you on the top edge of the optimal zone, though with fats its more of a weekly or monthly average that matters.
Nuts can also cause some allergic issues similar to grains, but at least for me, and the 1 ounce standard, 2 oz max level they don’t affect me. Walnut skins can cause inflammation and allergic reactions in many people. I also think that skinless nuts are less likely to cause allergies. If nuts don’t cause allergies, eat them, but try to AVERAGE 1 ounce a day to keep your omega-6s optimally low.
1 oz nuts, about 250 cals from fruit a day is a good guideline.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
possibly strawberries and eggplant
[/quote]
Why are these here, mert?
I’ve got organic/farmers-market-sourced strawberries up near the top of any ‘must-eat’ foods list.
And are you singling out eggplant for being a nightshade? Because we’ve bred out the “bad stuff” from that family quite awhile ago.