Clean vs Dirty

Nutrition
21

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
First off, I said “dose-relative” toxin, like most things. Fructose only starts to show problems at about 25 grams a day, (plus more after training). This 25 grams includes half of the grams in sucrose too, because it breaks into 1 part fructose and 1 part glucose. Fruits get 1/3 to 1/2 of their sugar from fructose.

In a worse case scenario, assuming you eat fruit that gets all of its cals from sugar, and half of its total sugar from fructose, you could still eat 200 cals of fruit a day before you reach that 25 grams where scientific literature starts to show issues. That would be about a 12 oz of blueberries! Bananas get about 1/3 of their cals from fructose.

So in all, if you vary your fruits you can generally get between 200-300 cals from fruit a day to average about 25 grams of fructose which I would call the “non-toxic” edge.

You also can probably add a calorie from fructose for every 2 calories you burn from intense exercise above maybe a 300 cal per hour pace, because at that point you will deplete liver glycogen and in that case, the fructose gets promptly turned into liver glycogen.

Nuts are a problem in keeping your omega 6s down. 1 oz of almonds has about 3.5 grams of omega 6s which is OK, but I try to stay under 10 grams a day total, and average about 7, and I know I am getting about 4 grams a day from general food just in daily eating, so 1 oz of Almonds puts me at 7.5 and 2 puts me at 11 which I would consider a high day. I try to average 1 ounce of almonds max a day. Other nuts may range from 3-6 per ounce, though macadamia nuts have only about 1 or 1.5. Generally an ounce of nuts a day will keep you at an optimal level if you eliminate omega 6 oils and processed foods, and 2 ounces will put you on the top edge of the optimal zone, though with fats its more of a weekly or monthly average that matters.

Nuts can also cause some allergic issues similar to grains, but at least for me, and the 1 ounce standard, 2 oz max level they don’t affect me. Walnut skins can cause inflammation and allergic reactions in many people. I also think that skinless nuts are less likely to cause allergies. If nuts don’t cause allergies, eat them, but try to AVERAGE 1 ounce a day to keep your omega-6s optimally low.

1 oz nuts, about 250 cals from fruit a day is a good guideline.
[/quote]

You seriously need to write a newsletter or something. You’ve spurred me on to reading studies on these issues, and it’s completely changing the way I think about my diet for a cut I’m about to start. I usually aim to be around 195 lbs @ 9% or so, but I’ve always loaded up on fruit (like a cup of blueberries, 2 apples, 2 bananas, and a kiwi per day), and kept my protein at around 225g, I tried 200 last cut, but got paranoid I wasn’t getting enough, and went back to 230. I’m around 300 on the bulk I’m on.

I think I’m going to try 185 on this cut, drop 1 apple and 1 banana per day, add in some other healthier fats, and bring carbs way down to the 125g per day level, unless I’m sprinting that day.

Thanks again man

22

[quote]chillain wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
possibly strawberries and eggplant
[/quote]

Why are these here, mert?

I’ve got organic/farmers-market-sourced strawberries up near the top of any ‘must-eat’ foods list.

And are you singling out eggplant for being a nightshade? Because we’ve bred out the “bad stuff” from that family quite awhile ago.
[/quote]

Strawberries just for me (they can be allergenic and if I eat a bunch they act a little like wheat, and I think its from the seeds).

Eggplant, honestly because I heard it might be, and it makes my mouth tingle a little, but it does have a little peppery quality.

I eat them both. I will eat an 1/2-1 eggplant in a day from time to time, and I will eat a few ounces of strawberries, but not close to bed time. I guess these 2 are more personal, like potato peel can be.

23

Basically let’s take a hard training strength athlete.

Studies have shown that nitrogen balance is achieved at about 140 grams per day.

There is added protein synthesis signalled by up to about 175 per day.

At that point, added protein can still spare protein by being used for fuel and the nitrogen turned to Urea, or the nitrogen can end up as ammonia which means that it is not sparing protein, and it also makes us weaker.

The top end found in this study was .53 grams per KG of nitrogen from protein, about 235-240 grams for a 200 pound athlete. ALL extra nitrogen ended up as ammonia at that point. The .53 was actually a dose, and the next highest does was about 170 grams a day. So going from 170 to 235-240 did spare additional protein, but somewhere in that range the benefits stopped.

The athlete study with intense strength trained athletes did find that going from (again standardized for a 200 pounded) 160 grams to 320 grams increased muscle over a 6 month period. Therefore I would conclude that the peak benefit occurred not closer to 320, but around, or even below the 240 mark shown in the other study. So going above 170 grams a day (with hard training) will net more muscle, but with the peak level being somewhere between 170 and 240 grams a day with no support that 240-320 does anything but produce ammonia. The first study also showed that increasing from .53 to .94 grams of nitrogen from protein (240 grams protein raised to 460 grams protein for a 200 pound athlete) fated all additional grams of nitrogen as ammonia. So even 220 extra grams of protein above 240 produced no added synthesis, and no added muscle sparing.

24

Aren’t “dirty” foods just the ones that over the medium-to-long run give you less bang-for-your-buck, so to say, because they might simultaneously induce negative side-effects vis-a-vis your goals (such as inflammation, digestive problems, allergies or unnecessary fat gain)?

So that you are not just not reaping the full benefits from the food that you take in, but in turn opening up some nasty cans of worms for your overall health (no pun intended)?

25

For me, really, the “dirty” foods are the ones I don’t want any more after I’ve been off of them for a month.

26

Eat nutrient dense foods most of the time.
I know “most of the time” isn’t a real quantitative number but you shouldn’t be going out of your way to try to figure out how to fit junk food in your macros every day but if you want something you should be able to fit it in your macros without feeling guilty.

If you have a craving on occasion…go for it. just fit it in your macros.
Your best friends birthday dinner/party…cake or alcohol or whatever just fit it in your macros.
If you’re hitting your macros, getting good fiber numbers, and trying to get good micros in from a variety of plant based foods then you’ll be fine.

27

also labeling foods clean, dirty, healthy, or unhealthy is stupid

28

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
The “dirty” foods for me are the allergenic and toxic ones. Here is the list:

wheat
oats
gluten
legumes
lactose
egg whites
smoked meats and fish
possibly strawberries and eggplant
omega-6s, as well as omega-3s
fructose (which means sucrose at a certain level too)
most “nuts”

All of these are dose-relative toxins, so they are not untouchable, but they are all harmful to me above a fairly low level.

Also protein begins to become toxic at a little over 1 gram per pound BW. Maybe 1.5 for someone very lean. Too many carbs in general.

I also won’t touch inorganic potatos, or canned tomatoes.

Saturated fat and MUFA’s are probably the two closest things to 100% clean.[/quote]

Mert, quoted this to ask if you could list the results/dangers of over eating foods on that list.

In the protein thread you mentioned that excess ammonia can cause “reduced strength and endurance, and possibly liver damage.”

29

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
The “dirty” foods for me are the allergenic and toxic ones. Here is the list:

wheat
oats
gluten
legumes
lactose
egg whites
smoked meats and fish
possibly strawberries and eggplant
omega-6s, as well as omega-3s
fructose (which means sucrose at a certain level too)
most “nuts”

All of these are dose-relative toxins, so they are not untouchable, but they are all harmful to me above a fairly low level.

Also protein begins to become toxic at a little over 1 gram per pound BW. Maybe 1.5 for someone very lean. Too many carbs in general.

I also won’t touch inorganic potatos, or canned tomatoes.

Saturated fat and MUFA’s are probably the two closest things to 100% clean.[/quote]

Jesus, that list plus not too many carbs or protein what do you eat? Macro breakdown.[/quote]

Baseline non-training

2500 cals
150 grams protein
150 grams carbs
145 grams fat

About a 25/25/50 breakdown by percent of calories.

Plus I train an hour a day so that is an extra 300 cals PWO, about 50 grams carbs, 25 grams protein.

That brings it to
2800
180 protein
200 carb
145 fat

That is if I still want to slowly bring down my bodyfat% while getting stronger.

Then another 300 cals (50 g carb, 25 g protein) to gain muscle as fast as possible without gaining fat.

3100
205 protein (26.5%)
250 carb (32.3%)
145 fat (42%)

That would be a standard muscle building level if I am happy maintaining my bodyfat, but don’t want to gain any fat. I could add another 300 cals if my bodyfat is lower and I am OK with coming up a little in the short term, but I would never go above about 13 or 14% again.

Honestly I get fat cals from grass fed beef fat, coconut oil, olive oil, butter, red palm oil, avocados, whole eggs, or just yolks.

I have a hard time seeing how people get so many carbs.

I can eat 2 pounds of potatos and be at 125 grams (plus fiber), and still have another 125 grams of carbs to add including PWO. That’s maybe 50 grams PWO drink, 2 bananas, and another 25 grams if I eat LOTS of veggies over the course of the day.

It would be almost 3 cups of rice plus 2 big pieces of fruit, PWO and some vegetables.

30

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
The “dirty” foods for me are the allergenic and toxic ones. Here is the list:

wheat
oats
gluten
legumes
lactose
egg whites
smoked meats and fish
possibly strawberries and eggplant
omega-6s, as well as omega-3s
fructose (which means sucrose at a certain level too)
most “nuts”

All of these are dose-relative toxins, so they are not untouchable, but they are all harmful to me above a fairly low level.

Also protein begins to become toxic at a little over 1 gram per pound BW. Maybe 1.5 for someone very lean. Too many carbs in general.

I also won’t touch inorganic potatos, or canned tomatoes.

Saturated fat and MUFA’s are probably the two closest things to 100% clean.[/quote]

Jesus, that list plus not too many carbs or protein what do you eat? Macro breakdown.[/quote]

Baseline non-training

2500 cals
150 grams protein
150 grams carbs
145 grams fat

About a 25/25/50 breakdown by percent of calories.

Plus I train an hour a day so that is an extra 300 cals PWO, about 50 grams carbs, 25 grams protein.

That brings it to
2800
180 protein
200 carb
145 fat

That is if I still want to slowly bring down my bodyfat% while getting stronger.

Then another 300 cals (50 g carb, 25 g protein) to gain muscle as fast as possible without gaining fat.

3100
205 protein (26.5%)
250 carb (32.3%)
145 fat (42%)

That would be a standard muscle building level if I am happy maintaining my bodyfat, but don’t want to gain any fat. I could add another 300 cals if my bodyfat is lower and I am OK with coming up a little in the short term, but I would never go above about 13 or 14% again.

Honestly I get fat cals from grass fed beef fat, coconut oil, olive oil, butter, red palm oil, avocados, whole eggs, or just yolks.

I have a hard time seeing how people get so many carbs.

I can eat 2 pounds of potatos and be at 125 grams (plus fiber), and still have another 125 grams of carbs to add including PWO. That’s maybe 50 grams PWO drink, 2 bananas, and another 25 grams if I eat LOTS of veggies over the course of the day.

It would be almost 3 cups of rice plus 2 big pieces of fruit, PWO and some vegetables. [/quote]

what do you mean you don’t know how people get so many carbs… like you don’t know how they do it without getting fat… or you don’t know how they physically eat so many carbs without being super full?

31

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
The “dirty” foods for me are the allergenic and toxic ones. Here is the list:

wheat
oats
gluten
legumes
lactose
egg whites
smoked meats and fish
possibly strawberries and eggplant
omega-6s, as well as omega-3s
fructose (which means sucrose at a certain level too)
most “nuts”

All of these are dose-relative toxins, so they are not untouchable, but they are all harmful to me above a fairly low level.

Also protein begins to become toxic at a little over 1 gram per pound BW. Maybe 1.5 for someone very lean. Too many carbs in general.

I also won’t touch inorganic potatos, or canned tomatoes.

Saturated fat and MUFA’s are probably the two closest things to 100% clean.[/quote]

Jesus, that list plus not too many carbs or protein what do you eat? Macro breakdown.[/quote]

Baseline non-training

2500 cals
150 grams protein
150 grams carbs
145 grams fat

About a 25/25/50 breakdown by percent of calories.

Plus I train an hour a day so that is an extra 300 cals PWO, about 50 grams carbs, 25 grams protein.

That brings it to
2800
180 protein
200 carb
145 fat

That is if I still want to slowly bring down my bodyfat% while getting stronger.

Then another 300 cals (50 g carb, 25 g protein) to gain muscle as fast as possible without gaining fat.

3100
205 protein (26.5%)
250 carb (32.3%)
145 fat (42%)

That would be a standard muscle building level if I am happy maintaining my bodyfat, but don’t want to gain any fat. I could add another 300 cals if my bodyfat is lower and I am OK with coming up a little in the short term, but I would never go above about 13 or 14% again.

Honestly I get fat cals from grass fed beef fat, coconut oil, olive oil, butter, red palm oil, avocados, whole eggs, or just yolks.

I have a hard time seeing how people get so many carbs.

I can eat 2 pounds of potatos and be at 125 grams (plus fiber), and still have another 125 grams of carbs to add including PWO. That’s maybe 50 grams PWO drink, 2 bananas, and another 25 grams if I eat LOTS of veggies over the course of the day.

It would be almost 3 cups of rice plus 2 big pieces of fruit, PWO and some vegetables. [/quote]

what do you mean you don’t know how people get so many carbs… like you don’t know how they do it without getting fat… or you don’t know how they physically eat so many carbs without being super full?[/quote]

I guess I’d say that it is hard for me to believe that I used to eat 400-500 grams of carbs a day and felt hungry, and now I get through the day usually, with a workout, and add everything up and I’m at around 125 grams of carbs and not really hungry for more. And my workouts are more consistent, my sleep is better, I don’t get headaches anymore.

32

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
The “dirty” foods for me are the allergenic and toxic ones. Here is the list:

wheat
oats
gluten
legumes
lactose
egg whites
smoked meats and fish
possibly strawberries and eggplant
omega-6s, as well as omega-3s
fructose (which means sucrose at a certain level too)
most “nuts”

All of these are dose-relative toxins, so they are not untouchable, but they are all harmful to me above a fairly low level.

Also protein begins to become toxic at a little over 1 gram per pound BW. Maybe 1.5 for someone very lean. Too many carbs in general.

I also won’t touch inorganic potatos, or canned tomatoes.

Saturated fat and MUFA’s are probably the two closest things to 100% clean.[/quote]

Jesus, that list plus not too many carbs or protein what do you eat? Macro breakdown.[/quote]

Baseline non-training

2500 cals
150 grams protein
150 grams carbs
145 grams fat

About a 25/25/50 breakdown by percent of calories.

Plus I train an hour a day so that is an extra 300 cals PWO, about 50 grams carbs, 25 grams protein.

That brings it to
2800
180 protein
200 carb
145 fat

That is if I still want to slowly bring down my bodyfat% while getting stronger.

Then another 300 cals (50 g carb, 25 g protein) to gain muscle as fast as possible without gaining fat.

3100
205 protein (26.5%)
250 carb (32.3%)
145 fat (42%)

That would be a standard muscle building level if I am happy maintaining my bodyfat, but don’t want to gain any fat. I could add another 300 cals if my bodyfat is lower and I am OK with coming up a little in the short term, but I would never go above about 13 or 14% again.

Honestly I get fat cals from grass fed beef fat, coconut oil, olive oil, butter, red palm oil, avocados, whole eggs, or just yolks.

I have a hard time seeing how people get so many carbs.

I can eat 2 pounds of potatos and be at 125 grams (plus fiber), and still have another 125 grams of carbs to add including PWO. That’s maybe 50 grams PWO drink, 2 bananas, and another 25 grams if I eat LOTS of veggies over the course of the day.

It would be almost 3 cups of rice plus 2 big pieces of fruit, PWO and some vegetables. [/quote]

So, a vegetarian or vegan is pretty much screwed.

33

[quote]

So, a vegetarian or vegan is pretty much screwed.[/quote]

Well you have your carbs easy. Potatoes and Rice, and Fruit, and sugary plants, up to about 200 grams of carbs a day, plus extra on training days. Pretty much

You have your fats: Avocado, Red Palm, Coconut, Olive, Macadamia, and other nuts up to about an ounce a day on average.

That is at least half of the equation. I probably get at least half my fat from the plant sources anyway.

Though you have no source of cholesterol which is bad, no animal vitamin A which for some people is deadly (not everyone can synthesize enough from caretenoids). But if people used the plant fats listed above for half their baseline cals, I think they could be OK, so that is 3/4 of the diet.

Then you need protein, and the problem with that is that generally speaking, plant proteins ARE toxins. They are there to make the plants less good to eat. At best, you are getting about 40% protein from plant sources. No beans. Some mushrooms. Some spinach. But you need a protein option to fill out the last 1/4 of the equation. I would probably go for some plant BCAA supplement, figure my carbs are going up from some higher protein plants, cut some starch and fruit and up the fat a little. Vegans then should eat an even higher fat diet than non-vegans.

If you keep your carbs to the less toxic types-rice, potatoes, moderate fruit and sugary plants, there are 4 main issues with Veganism:

  1. Not enough retinol
  2. Not enough cholesterol
  3. No way to get an optimal omega-3 profile. Flax doesn’t work well for Omega-3s because of how it is metabolized, and nuts all have far higher relative levels of omega 6s, even walnuts give you like a 5-1 ratio
  4. Generally low bioavailable proteins. Though in theory a quality BCAA suppliment could be made from pure plant sources. Just 60 grams of good BCAAs can make up for far more in rough random plant protein.
34

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]

So, a vegetarian or vegan is pretty much screwed.[/quote]

Well you have your carbs easy. Potatoes and Rice, and Fruit, and sugary plants, up to about 200 grams of carbs a day, plus extra on training days. Pretty much

You have your fats: Avocado, Red Palm, Coconut, Olive, Macadamia, and other nuts up to about an ounce a day on average.

That is at least half of the equation. I probably get at least half my fat from the plant sources anyway.

Though you have no source of cholesterol which is bad, no animal vitamin A which for some people is deadly (not everyone can synthesize enough from caretenoids). But if people used the plant fats listed above for half their baseline cals, I think they could be OK, so that is 3/4 of the diet.

Then you need protein, and the problem with that is that generally speaking, plant proteins ARE toxins. They are there to make the plants less good to eat. At best, you are getting about 40% protein from plant sources. No beans. Some mushrooms. Some spinach. But you need a protein option to fill out the last 1/4 of the equation. I would probably go for some plant BCAA supplement, figure my carbs are going up from some higher protein plants, cut some starch and fruit and up the fat a little. Vegans then should eat an even higher fat diet than non-vegans.

If you keep your carbs to the less toxic types-rice, potatoes, moderate fruit and sugary plants, there are 4 main issues with Veganism:

  1. Not enough retinol
  2. Not enough cholesterol
  3. No way to get an optimal omega-3 profile. Flax doesn’t work well for Omega-3s because of how it is metabolized, and nuts all have far higher relative levels of omega 6s, even walnuts give you like a 5-1 ratio
  4. Generally low bioavailable proteins. Though in theory a quality BCAA suppliment could be made from pure plant sources. Just 60 grams of good BCAAs can make up for far more in rough random plant protein.[/quote]

Why no beans?

That is what I meant by screwed you have a cap on fructose and carbs. Even training 250g of carbs is only 1000 calories. You would essentially have to eat a really high fat diet as getting protein would be a bitch without dairy, beans, and/or eggs. Not to mention that eating potatoes, rice, and a little fruit as your carb sources everyday would get old fast.

What do you think about vegetarian protein powders like hemp, pea, and rice?Still toxic?

35

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]

So, a vegetarian or vegan is pretty much screwed.[/quote]

Well you have your carbs easy. Potatoes and Rice, and Fruit, and sugary plants, up to about 200 grams of carbs a day, plus extra on training days. Pretty much

You have your fats: Avocado, Red Palm, Coconut, Olive, Macadamia, and other nuts up to about an ounce a day on average.

That is at least half of the equation. I probably get at least half my fat from the plant sources anyway.

Though you have no source of cholesterol which is bad, no animal vitamin A which for some people is deadly (not everyone can synthesize enough from caretenoids). But if people used the plant fats listed above for half their baseline cals, I think they could be OK, so that is 3/4 of the diet.

Then you need protein, and the problem with that is that generally speaking, plant proteins ARE toxins. They are there to make the plants less good to eat. At best, you are getting about 40% protein from plant sources. No beans. Some mushrooms. Some spinach. But you need a protein option to fill out the last 1/4 of the equation. I would probably go for some plant BCAA supplement, figure my carbs are going up from some higher protein plants, cut some starch and fruit and up the fat a little. Vegans then should eat an even higher fat diet than non-vegans.

If you keep your carbs to the less toxic types-rice, potatoes, moderate fruit and sugary plants, there are 4 main issues with Veganism:

  1. Not enough retinol
  2. Not enough cholesterol
  3. No way to get an optimal omega-3 profile. Flax doesn’t work well for Omega-3s because of how it is metabolized, and nuts all have far higher relative levels of omega 6s, even walnuts give you like a 5-1 ratio
  4. Generally low bioavailable proteins. Though in theory a quality BCAA suppliment could be made from pure plant sources. Just 60 grams of good BCAAs can make up for far more in rough random plant protein.[/quote]

Why no beans?

That is what I meant by screwed you have a cap on fructose and carbs. Even training 250g of carbs is only 1000 calories. You would essentially have to eat a really high fat diet as getting protein would be a bitch without dairy, beans, and/or eggs. Not to mention that eating potatoes, rice, and a little fruit as your carb sources everyday would get old fast.

What do you think about vegetarian protein powders like hemp, pea, and rice?Still toxic?[/quote]

Don’t be afraid of fat; olive oil, red palm oil, coconut oil, avocados, etc… There’s plenty of ways to get calories without tons of carbs.

36

[quote]AccipiterQ wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]

So, a vegetarian or vegan is pretty much screwed.[/quote]

Well you have your carbs easy. Potatoes and Rice, and Fruit, and sugary plants, up to about 200 grams of carbs a day, plus extra on training days. Pretty much

You have your fats: Avocado, Red Palm, Coconut, Olive, Macadamia, and other nuts up to about an ounce a day on average.

That is at least half of the equation. I probably get at least half my fat from the plant sources anyway.

Though you have no source of cholesterol which is bad, no animal vitamin A which for some people is deadly (not everyone can synthesize enough from caretenoids). But if people used the plant fats listed above for half their baseline cals, I think they could be OK, so that is 3/4 of the diet.

Then you need protein, and the problem with that is that generally speaking, plant proteins ARE toxins. They are there to make the plants less good to eat. At best, you are getting about 40% protein from plant sources. No beans. Some mushrooms. Some spinach. But you need a protein option to fill out the last 1/4 of the equation. I would probably go for some plant BCAA supplement, figure my carbs are going up from some higher protein plants, cut some starch and fruit and up the fat a little. Vegans then should eat an even higher fat diet than non-vegans.

If you keep your carbs to the less toxic types-rice, potatoes, moderate fruit and sugary plants, there are 4 main issues with Veganism:

  1. Not enough retinol
  2. Not enough cholesterol
  3. No way to get an optimal omega-3 profile. Flax doesn’t work well for Omega-3s because of how it is metabolized, and nuts all have far higher relative levels of omega 6s, even walnuts give you like a 5-1 ratio
  4. Generally low bioavailable proteins. Though in theory a quality BCAA suppliment could be made from pure plant sources. Just 60 grams of good BCAAs can make up for far more in rough random plant protein.[/quote]

Why no beans?

That is what I meant by screwed you have a cap on fructose and carbs. Even training 250g of carbs is only 1000 calories. You would essentially have to eat a really high fat diet as getting protein would be a bitch without dairy, beans, and/or eggs. Not to mention that eating potatoes, rice, and a little fruit as your carb sources everyday would get old fast.

What do you think about vegetarian protein powders like hemp, pea, and rice?Still toxic?[/quote]

Don’t be afraid of fat; olive oil, red palm oil, coconut oil, avocados, etc… There’s plenty of ways to get calories without tons of carbs. [/quote]

I am not a vegetarian and I am not afraid of fat. However, a diet high in fat especially liquid seems fucking horrible.

37

“Then you need protein, and the problem with that is that generally speaking, plant proteins ARE toxins.”

?? This sounds like some Paleo BS. Any protein should be hydrolyzed by your stomach acid into smaller peptides for easier digestion. If someone is not fully digesting plant proteins, they probably have poor digestion. There might be other things in plants that are toxic, but not the protein.

38

[quote]MrMuzik wrote:
“Then you need protein, and the problem with that is that generally speaking, plant proteins ARE toxins.”

?? This sounds like some Paleo BS. Any protein should be hydrolyzed by your stomach acid into smaller peptides for easier digestion. If someone is not fully digesting plant proteins, they probably have poor digestion. There might be other things in plants that are toxic, but not the protein.[/quote]

Like Gluten? I guess regarding plant globular proteins I should say “allergenic”. Hydrolysis is not going to completely breakdown large proteins and it allows allergenic pieces of globular and folded polypeptides that tend to be allergenic. Hydrolyzed plant proteins are not toxic or any different from hydrolyzed animal proteins. Also because plant proteins tend to have a lower untilization rate for protein synthesis because of the ratio of amino acids that get hydrolyzed (even in plant pairings that provide a complete profile) the plant proteins tend to upregulate enzymes that use proteins for fuel, which just turns you into an efficient protein burner.

39

Mertdawg - About your studies on excess protein, thanks for that. Very interesting.

For what it’s worth, (small woman here) I’ve been experimenting with .7 to .8 grams of protein per pound of BW for a few months, and I’m doing great in terms of both hypertrophy and strength.

In terms of what is “clean” - I define that as eating a diet consisting of more nutrient rich whole foods. I don’t have any known food allergies, sensitivities, or digestive issues so eggs, wheat, nuts, legumes fit into that category.

Dirty - If it comes in a box with a list of preservatives and other chemicals I can’t identify, it’s not clean. That’s most of the center aisles of the standard grocery store. If it’s processed and full of nitrates, not clean. If it’s junk food like french fries, potato chips, ice cream, etc… it’s not clean. If it contains hydrogenated oils or MSG it’s not clean. Some of these things would fit into my macros, but they don’t meet long term health goals so I want to eat them sparingly, or not at all.

Question for Mertdawg, or anybody else who’s considered Vegan diets. I find the science in The China Study by T. Colin Campell, and Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease by Caldwell Esselstyn to be very compelling. I haven’t dumped meat, dairy, or adopted a seriously low fat diet, but I’ve been reconsidering the healthiness of my “mostly clean BBer diet”. I am eating more whole grains, have lowered my protein intake as mentioned, and have become more concerned with fats, even “healthy fats”. I was curious.

Are you familiar with the Esselstyn book?

Cliff’s Notes on Esselstyn - For people following

  • Physician who has treated people with severe heart disease. Bill Clinton used his stuff to adopt a plant-based diet.
  • Cites Korean War study. Autopsies of young American men in their 20’s showed 80 percent already had signs of coronary artery disease, where their Korean counterparts had largely clean arteries. Attributes difference to low fat, plant based diets in the Asians.
  • Shows the reversal of partially blocked arteries, after 36 months on a Vegan, very low fat diet.
  • Thinks the current recommendations for fat intake are way too high, USDA setting standards influenced by meat and dairy interests, instead of NIH.
  • Recommends reducing total cholesterol to 150 mg/dl or lower, instead of the current guideline of 200 mg/dl or lower.
  • Believes Casein increases cancer risk.

Sorry about the super long post. I’d appreciate your insights if any.

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One other way to think about diet. The focus here is on building muscle. Sometimes general athleticism. Strength. Maintaining lower levels of body fat, depending on your goals. Most of us also want to feel good, and have adequate energy to do our thing.

I’ve become more concerned with general health and longevity. I’d like to avoid injury, and I’d also like to age well.

You have to decide if you want be concerned with just muscle, or how much you want to consider lowering your risk for:

Heart Disease
Cancer
Diabetes

Lets assume the effects of “eating dirty” are cumulative. Just because you’re young and don’t yet have high blood pressure or diabetes, doesn’t mean you aren’t building the gunk that will clog up your arteries in a decade or two. You kind of hate to wait until your doctor see’s these medical indicators in your bloodwork, before your consider it might be a problem. IMO, the high fat/ high protein/ low carb diets many people espouse these days don’t equate with longevity for the average person. I’m not so sure that the so called “healthy fats” should be consumed with abandon either.

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